Pheasant Scent/Wings

[caro]

I've posted a few times in various threads about Fern's recall when she's on a scent.  She's not had any gundog training, but her recall is perfect unless on the scent of a pheasant when it all goes out of the window.  So she'd probably make a good working dog, but at the moment she'd ruin every subsequent drive as she'd chase the pheasant until it landed (unless it was shot).  The local shoot is right on my doorstep, hence lots of pheasants around, and an opportunity to work her, if only she was trained well enough not to go mental with the scent.

What about if I obtained some full pheasant wings - could I train her to 'leave it'?  Do you think that would work, or would that desensitise her so much she'd lose her natural instinct? 

She's brilliant at everything except this - I don't want to send her away for training - any ideas?  btw she is 2 yrs and 4 mths old.

[Nicola]

I don't think training her to leave a pheasant wing would make her stop chasing them. It's the movement and the noise she's reacting to, not the fact that it's a pheasant iyswim. You could do it with a ball or dummy just the same as a trained gundog should automatically 'stop and drop' if something goes flying over its head or in front of it, it doesn't matter if it's a bird or a ball. At her age it is probably a bit late to start full on working training bearing in mind that to work she would need to know how to hunt properly, stop when she flushes and when she hears a shot and then be commanded to keep on hunting and not actually recall back to you and to ignore the other dogs and birds flushed by other dogs. You can definitely try to improve her recall though.

There are various methods such as long lines which are explained on a few threads here and whistle training which tends to be more reliable than just voice commands. The first thing you must do is stop letting her chase though    she must NEVER be allowed to chase a bird if you are serious about training her like this. At over 2 years old this behaviour is probably quite ingrained in her and every time she gets to do it it becomes more reinforced. You need to walk her in very boring areas while you are training her the whistle basics and reinforcing this, if you keep letting her chase it will defeat the whole object.

Sorry this reply is a bit 'bitty' I'm starving and waiting for my dinner to cook! I will come back later and try to make a bit more sense 

[caro]

Hi Nicola just in reply to yours before you are ready to post a bit more - Fern is excellent with recall usually, and I use a whistle with treats.  When she goes off on a scent or a pheasant I just don't really know what to do once she has returned as I know it is wrong to chastise once they have come back.   She only goes for minutes, but it feels like a lot longer. 

Since posting we went out again on the retractable lead (don't have a long line - yet) and I kept saying "wait " once the lead got taut and at one stage a pheasant went up, and of course she got excited so I shouted No Leave It, and then said 'here' and held out a 'biscuit' and she came to me - I was really pleased about this.  She was on the lead, but at least she wasn't pulling my arm off.  I hope that doing this more often will help.  After that we continued to walk down the track and she was going from side to side sniffing, but I kept saying wait and she was listening but when she started to pull I turned around and we went home.  Maybe its just a case of persevering with that.  What you say about her behaviour at her age makes me a bit sad (although I know its true), but we only moved here last year and so last September was the first time she ever smelt a pheasant and then the smells went off again after February ish.   I have always used the whistle and we seemed to be 99% with it, and then those pheasants came back - there were about 250 last year and there are 650 this year and they are really close to us and the public footpaths which makes it really hard.How do I stop her from chasing?  Use a long line and persevere?  I know really see don't I, but I just wondered if it was the ingrained hunter in her and I fear I will never stop it.

[Nicola]

I'm back! Right, basically if one of my dogs ignored a recall/tried to chase I would go after them. You are right not to chastise her when she comes back but that doesn't really teach her anything other than that chasing is fun. I spent quite a while doing this with Alfie as he developed a bit of an obsession with chasing birds as well (although he was only around a year old at the time). You need your running shoes on for this as basically every time he chased a bird or ignored the whistle I took to my beaters after him. The first time he realised I was right behind him you could almost see the surprise on his face. I would then bring him back to the exact spot where he was when he started to chase and make him sit and wait there. Other than a firm 'ah ah!' when I was catching up with him to get his attention there was no chastisement, just endless repetition. It meant a lot of tiring and fairly stressful walks as I was constantly watching him for the slightest sign that he was going to take off so I was ready to follow him instantly, eventually I could read the signals like a book and all I had to do was say a firm 'ah ah!' and he would forget about it. If he was on lead and started to get het up if he saw birds he would get a very firm 'no!' (which he does know the meaning of and has done since a puppy) and we would turn and walk in the opposite direction and do a bit of heelwork.

The issue as I realised though isn't so much the chasing it really is recall. If a dog has 100% recall they will come back to you no matter what's going on so once you have that down it doesn't matter what flies up or runs out in front of them as they will ALWAYS obey the recall signal. I have worked extremely hard on Rodaidh's recall and I know that no matter what is going on he will always come back to me when he's called. He has never once disobeyed or ignored a recall from me but that's because I have worked very hard to never put him in a position to do it. You live and learn as they say!

[caro]

Hi Nicola, thanks ever so much for this advice - I hadn't considered chasing her before but will start to do this.  At the moment I am too nervous to let her off, but might do at the weekend when OH can come with me. 

We had a good walk this morning, I used the harness with Fern (which I haven't done since last season) and she was absolutely fine with it, and she walked like a dream (on the retractable lead).  I was telling her to 'leave it' as soon as she picked up a scent, and kept saying walk nicely (which is our word for heal) and she was great.  I kept her close on the walk down and on the way back up I had it loose and she walked to heal - good girl!

When we were coming back up the track there were about 5 pheasants in a gate way so we stopped and I said leave it and Fern sat, but then she tried to pull and I said no, leave it.  Then she sat again.  I said 'come on then' and she came along with me happily so got rewarded.

If she wasn't on the lead I am sure she would have chased, but I think if I carry on with this it has got to help. 

Also my OH knows of somebody who trains gundogs, its just a case of tracking him down, and see if we can get some controlled training with game.

I am determined to crack this!

[Nicola]

That's really good    it sounds like you're making a good start with her. Good luck with it and keep me posted as to how she gets on.

[caro]

It was funny this morning, she was a little bit harder to control than yesterday but I shall persevere, then coming back up the lane we were following a pheasant that we could both see - she was so keen to chase it but I kept up with my routine, leave, wait, walk nicely, no (on the lead of course!) - eventually the pheasant went into the edge and we were right on it literally feet away, course she was really excited so I said no sit, leave it - she sat (she was an  ) then she started making strange squeeling noises, bless her.  She wanted that pheasant SO bad - we passed the game keeper /shoot organiser on the way down the lane and I told him what I was doing and he said "ah don't worry she can't do any harm down here" and I said thanks but that's not the point, he then said well spaniels don't calm down for five years!  I thought, well that's no reason not to train her is it!  I've asked OH if he can take her up for a nice walk just outside town later, as there are no pheasants up there, so I hope he does because she needs a good run around off lead.  Another good thing coming out of this, she is really looking up to me more, OH hardly walks her now (when he was on his days off I used to not go out with her and leave it for him later) but now we go early EVERY morning except maybe the weekend, and the difference is amazing.  She didn't want me to come to work today and followed me to the door! 

[Nicola]

That's fab Caro! You will definitely notice if you train her in this way that you will develop a real partnership with her. It's not easy and a lot of effort is needed, you will find that some days you will feel like you are taking backwards steps but when it all comes together it's worth it. That is one of the main attractions for me of training and working my dogs - there is real teamwork between us, they can't do it without me and I can't do it without them. We were walking on an estate today and Tilly flushed a few pheasants and when I looked at her her body language and the look on her face was priceless. She had stopped and marked them on flush and her head was up, ears pricked, mouth open and tail wagging nineteen to the dozen as she looked back and forward at the pheasants and then at me as if to say 'look at me doing my job Mum!' sounds daft but she looked so alive and happy.... My lot are not perfectly trained by any means but there really is nothing like watching the joy that a well trained gundog gets from doing their job.