Gundog Training

[JaspersMum]

I'm not sure where you are, but Louie and I are signing up for a 2 day workshop on Gundog training for the Pet dog... I'm sure we'll be a complete embarrassment but it will be interesting to see what we can do.  Ours is near Worcester at the end of March (subject to the booking forms all going through) 

[praia]

Whether a dog is worked or not, EVERY dog should have a rock solid sit-stay and a rock solid recall no matter the distance or distraction.

I don't understand why anyone would think there would be any difference between training for a gun dog or show.... Basic obedience is the same regardless of the field you work in.  Though different methods may be in general favor over others depending on the activity you do with your dog and the sort of personalities that frequent those activities, the basic outcome of obedience and focusing on the handler should be the same regardless of what training method you choose or whether you use hand signals, verbal, or whistle commands.  A clicker is only a tool to aid in marker training.  Every one uses marker training, though they may not realize that they're doing it. 

Once a dog has learned the sit command one should gradually increase the duration you expect the dog to hold the command, the distance from you where you ask for the command, and the distraction level to ensure the dog holds the command no matter what.  My Cocker puppy is about the same age as the OP and at the moment I'm mostly focusing on raising the duration time by asking for sits and clicking after a certain period of time.  This is the first time I've used a clicker with a dog though I've always used marker training in my own training programs. 

I also walk the pup on the lead and ask for a sit while dropping the lead and walking on and will use this later on in training to build on distance.  I always proof for solid sit stays under distraction with the dog on a lead or a check cord.  With my young pup I'm only at the stage where I expect her to sit and maintain a sit when strange dogs or people approach.  I don't intend on proofing to higher levels (emergency sit/down mid-chase) until the pup is older and mentally matured more.  One mustn't expect too much out of a puppy too early on.  It only leads to frustration for the handler who expects too much and frustration for the puppy who doesn't understand what is expected at all. 

[seaangler]

Mark...

The other day at the show...as we only Bump into one another at the the start...(as i came in...

Later on i took Gemma out for a wee/phoo,Met up with a couple with two lovely Munsterleanders...Overgrown Springer's(not) but absolutely beautiful pair of dogs they had...

After Gemma had her wee/phoos....She started to play with these to dog..As they are two times the size of are gemma and gemma being gemma was getting a bit to full on with these to dogs...So i blow the whistle once to get her attention and the  twice to bring her back..to which she did not at first but a nother time doing she came back....

A voice said from behind me who told you that methereed... Terry gambit...Who he said i know him he said...I am not going to mention the other person name as we was a Judge at the show...He also said that he trains gundogs...and what he told me would make your hair stand on end...

As Praia has said and this judge also said to me...

Because Gemma carred ed on playing with these to other dogs....YOU NEED A GOOD ROCK SOLID STOP AND RECALL...Once for stop as i said (and to gain the dogs attention) as to you then giving hand signals to send your dog (away and comebye directions) or use the whistle again (if trained to do do)..(you can also clicker trained and very close range) for general use But we do not use the clicker with G/D Training (at are school any way)

He said i know Terry very well..Will be seeing him soon for the new years shoot...
I said i will being seeing him to night up the acken pup...Gime him my regards he said and ill phone him soon..

It seems that Praia  Has almost said every thing in the right order as to how Terry my trainer also uses in the field of his training..

He uses a slip lead walking his dogs to heel to train his dogs....When i question him about it he said how Meany chains type slip leads do you see being use at shows country grounds also In the field of gun dog training...


People(trainers) have there ways way i have my ways NO two trainers are the same...In the way they train there dogs...Walking a dog to heel with or with out a slip..Even an holty will hurt a dogs neck if it so called jerk or pulled in any way...He went on to say a load of cods wallops....

He said there was a chap that invented a a new slip lead for a horse(or bridle less head collar) and he went on to have it made for dogs...

( The Canny dog collar)Does that not pull on the face museels of a dog..Even a ordinary collar will hurt a dog he says.....

So i am sure a top judge that also says highly of my trainer surly knows hows to train dogs...Both work on top estate in the midlands area...


Mark i know you are good in what you do in your field of training ...But i am at a lost as to WHO is wright or who is wrong ...Like Terry has said NO to trainers are alike in the way they train there dogs...

I hate to see animals hurt in any way and also as to there traineing...And if i thought in any way that are gemma was being hurt in any way on the slip lead ..I would step in and have some thing to say to them or take my dog else ware....(but when a Judge says he uses a slip lead while training to pull his young dog down)...And question him about and he turns around to me and say whay do you know in the field of training!! I have been training for close of thirtyfive years and also a judge...In the field...

A lot of people and your self know i love all my animals and would NEVER have any harm come to them....

[Karma]

As Praia has said and this judge also said to me...

Because Gemma carred ed on playing with these to other dogs....YOU NEED A GOOD ROCK SOLID STOP AND RECALL...Once for stop as i said (and to gain the dogs attention) as to you then giving hand signals to send your dog (away and comebye directions) or use the whistle again (if trained to do do)..(you can also clicker trained and very close range) for general use But we do not use the clicker with G/D Training (at are school any way)

no one has said you don't....    the OP asked for methods to train that sit=sit/stay... it doesn't matter what command you use to ask for it (you could use a long blast on as whistle, as is common in gundog training, or you could say "Bananas" - as long as the dog has been taught the command effectively, it will obey).  Some people keep sit and stay separate... so they ask for a sit and then for a stay.  This can also be effective, as long as the dog understands the command stay.  Yes, there are different ways of training things... on this forum we only recommend positive training, so that rules out some methods (thank goodness).  I gave the OP two options for how to achieve the same thing... all everyone else seems to have done is argue about what the command should be, and whether you can apply training learned in one arena (say my obedience class) to another (say gundog work) - which you can...  Honey has a fantastic sit/stop at a distance (even if I do say so myself), and I could easily transfer that to a whistle command to make me fit in at a gundog group.

The clicker is a training tool - I (and Mark) will often detail methods using a clicker as this is an effective way to train... if someone prefers not to use a clicker, the same methods will work, you just tell the dog in a different way that they are doing the right thing... I don't get why you (and others) think a clicker is a command, or somehow incompatible with a whistle command or distance work or whatever... it's like saying that "Good Dog" is just as incompatible.... 

I'm sorry to appear like I'm having a go... it's just it must be very frustrating for people asking for advice to see so many threads devolve into a "who's training method is best" peeing contest, when surely just giving alternative methods (not just saying what command you use or just criticising someone else's method without giving an alternative) then gives the person more options to decide which suits them and their dog best.  The two methods I described are subtley different, and one will suit some dogs better than others... I know other people use different (but again, positive) methods to acheive the same thing - I'm not familiar with the detail of those methods so can't present them as options, but they are equally valid ways of training a sit/stay.  No where in your (or Steve's) posts have you actually told the OP HOW you train a sit/stay.  You say what the command is, and you say what behaviour you expect from the dog, but not HOW you would achieve it.    That's like responding to the question "How long should I cook a 2 kilo Turkey?"  with "I like to use a timer, and like the meat to be nice and moist".    Perfectly fair comments, but not actually answering the question.  And then the discussion about clickers is rather like arguing about how to season the bird...  Relevent, but a distraction!!

[max2011]

Thanks for the replies. I think I will use the clicker as Max is used to it and I used it when I initially trained sit,stand and down.

I was thinking of asking for a sit, praising and clicking as I say the release word. Then Max will learn to wait for the click/treat before moving. Eventually I will phase out the clicker.
I also assume that while training for a solid sit/stay no one else should ask Max to sit as they prob won't do it properly (ie kids, friends etc).

I will definately introduce the whistle but want to get this solid first.

Karma - thanks for the You Tube recommendation - she is amazing!! Made me laugh when I watched her loose lead walking clip. Her dogs walked so slowly it made it easy for her to stop/turn etc - Max is so fast with nose down - nothing like in her clip!!!!!!

[seaangler]

Last post.on the subject..

All i can say if your dog is belting off to the other side of a field out of yelling distance and there is a road in between the pair of you...I would sooner use a whistle to have my dog(do a rock solid sit and recall)..Like what can happen out in the field....Or come to that any ware..No good shouting bananas when its to late!!

[Karma]

Thanks for the replies. I think I will use the clicker as Max is used to it and I used it when I initially trained sit,stand and down.

I was thinking of asking for a sit, praising and clicking as I say the release word. Then Max will learn to wait for the click/treat before moving. Eventually I will phase out the clicker.
I also assume that while training for a solid sit/stay no one else should ask Max to sit as they prob won't do it properly (ie kids, friends etc).

That will work.
If you are going to keep with clicker as the release (alongside the release cue) I recommend giving some treats (and lots of verbal praise) between him starting sitting and you clicking/releasing and treating, so that it is rewarding to stay sat... otherwise some dogs can get disheartened that it's just getting more difficult and there's no incentive to remain sat.
You can quickly fade the interim treats and rely on verbal praise for maintaining the sit (while training is in progress) especially if you work on a variable schedule (ie one time release immediately, next time wait for 2 seconds, next time 3 seconds, next time 1 second... so it's not just getting harder and harder...  ). 

The benefit of click/treating throughout the sit/stay and then releasing and click/treating is that really reinforces the release as well as the sitting behaviour, but it is a big shift for some dogs to adapt to the clicker not being a release cue (Honey has always seen it as one, so it took us a long time to adapt to the new method, and she does still view the clicker as a release in some situations which is confusing for her...).

As long as other people know your release cue, and use it, they can ask for sits as long as they release appropriately... if you can trust them to do so, obviously... 

[Top Barks]

Last post.on the subject..

All i can say if your dog is belting off to the other side of a field out of yelling distance and there is a road in between the pair of you...I would sooner use a whistle to have my dog(do a rock solid sit and recall)..Like what can happen out in the field....Or come to that any ware..No good shouting bananas when its to late!!

Chris you really don't seem to get what we are trying to say, yes I use a whistle to cue sit, but when i initially teach sit i use a clicker to tell the dog that it is the sit behaviour I want. When the behaviour is happening regularly and reliably as the dog has worked out that sitting works, I fade out the clicker and introduce the whistle cue.
With regard to which trainer is right and which trainer is wrong, we all have different ways of achieving what we want. In the past many trainers have used punishment and the witholding of punishment to get what they want and yes it works.
I prefer to train with kindness which also works, although with any training even reward based it still involves elements of punishment,
When a dog wants food and you withhold it this could be punishing for the dog and for some may be as damaging as scruffing the dog or beating it. You just have to know your dog and go with what sits right with you. My problem comes when some trainers believe the dog to understand human concepts such as right or wrong, and physically abuse the dog for basically not understanding the handler, who believes the dog is taking the p*ss.
If you look at the video links I put on especially the last bit of the last link hopefully you'll see me start to introduce the whistle whilst still using a clicker.

[Nicola]

Please keep this thread (and all others!) on topic. If anyone wants to discuss their own training methods with another member please do it via pm and not on other people's threads.

[praia]

When proofing the sit I don't use the clicker to mark the release as I don't want the pup to start confusing it as a release cue.  I only click as the pup maintains the sit or down position.  At least for my pup I always use just a verbal cue "ok" to release.

Usually those that are so against clickers are simply misunderstanding the tool and its purpose.  A clicker isn't a cue.  Your command is the cue.  A clicker is merely a stimulus that marks a specific response the dog makes and bridges that response with some sort of reinforcement like praise or food.  Saying, "good dog" once a dog plants its butt on the ground is just the same as using a clicker as you're merely marking the appropriate response behavior.  Shouting "bananas" or whistling are both cues that can be just as effective as the other as long as the dog has learned the meaning the cue and has been proofed for the cue.  

There are quite a few people who use clicker training when first training their gun dogs.  Clickers are wonderful for teaching behaviors, though proofing for higher levels of obedience in field usually requires additional training.  Honestly, I don't understand the stigma against clickers in the gun dog world.  If world renown ring sport and personal protection dog trainers training the hardest dogs in the world can find use and value in it in their sport, why can't gun dog trainers understand their worth and incorporate it into their training?

As for differing training methods, every training method should be different depending on the individual temperament and level of drive of the individual dog and its unique environmental circumstances. There is no training method that is the right way or the wrong way.  Dogs are as unique as people are and some learn better with one method vs another.  A really gifted trainer won't have a one size fits all approach to dog training and will evaluate the dog and adapt their training program to fit that individual dog.  I have the must respect for trainers have a balanced approach to training and understands and takes advantage of the genetic drives we have purposefully bred into our dogs.  

seaangler: Personally, I don't like it when trainers physically manipulate a dog to position  to "teach" behaviors like pulling down on a slip lead to teach a down as luring or capturing this natural behavior is much easier and without added stress to a dog.  This sort of training also does not rely on any form of communication reinforcing a relationship between a dog and a handler.  There's a big difference between demanding respect and obedience from dog, which is inherently coercive in nature, vs commanding through mutual respect.

I don't really understand what it is your trying to say about one training method vs the other... Are you saying that you're trying to proof for a solid sit-stay and a solid recall with your gemma, but one trainer says one thing (aversive free methods) vs another (use of aversives)? If you're averse to aversive methods, you can proof to higher levels through fluency training, though this route requires much more patience and time.  With my own dogs I incorporate fluency and aversive methods in my training to proof to higher levels of obedience.  There is no right or wrong, though there is a difference between fair and balanced aversive techniques and outright abuse.  There is a difference between aversive methods and coercive methods.  You need to be the judge of the temperament of your dog as you know her best and you need to decide what it is you are comfortable with in her training.  

[seaangler]

Please keep this thread (and all others!) on topic. If anyone wants to discuss their own training methods with another member please do it via pm and not on other people's threads.

I would like to but the last one i sent a P.M. to reported me to Admin...And why was my last two post taken of it was all on thred and to do with G.D.Training!!....

[Jane S]

Please keep this thread (and all others!) on topic. If anyone wants to discuss their own training methods with another member please do it via pm and not on other people's threads.

I would like to but the last one i sent a P.M. to reported me to Admin...And why was my last two post taken of it was all on thred and to do with G.D.Training!!....

Chris, you are of course entitled to give your opinions but sometimes your posts are very difficult to read and understand and must be very confusing to those wanting advice (I got completely lost above when you were talking about somebody called Terry??) Posts will be edited or removed on this kind of thread if they don't make sense or are pointlessly argumentative & off topic.

We are all agreed that there are different training methods and it is up to each of us to choose what suits us and our dogs - you are free to train your dogs as you wish and nobody has said otherwise. You are also free to PM other members to discuss training methods but you have to accept not everybody will want to receive your messages, that is their choice. If you want to start a general discussion of gundog training methods, then please do so on the General Dog Discussions board.

I am going to close this thread for now to avoid it going any further off topic.