Author Topic: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid  (Read 10040 times)

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Offline Lobo do Mar

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Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« on: August 07, 2019, 12:17:22 PM »
Hi,
I have posted in intro and puppy photos boards, now my first post :)
Salty is my 2nd dog (so I am no expert), my Wife has had 3 Cockers before as a child (they lived in the holiday house and outside only)

Of course, its about those needle sharp teeth combined with teething and a licence to use them on anything that moves :)

I was really worried, but this forum reassured me no end - thanks!

I'd really just like some confirmation that my plan is not a bad one.

Salty is adorable, loves cuddles, like to please us, is learning very quickly and is generally a great little doggy.
He can sit there and have my hand in his mouth and will chew a bit but not too hard
But he has biting furies when he just cant stop himself.
There seem to be patterns (early morning, later in evening).
His eyes show the whites and he is off.
He will also jump around at the ankles and its impossible to walk around.
I can pick him up and he stops
He is worse with my wife and daughter.
He does growl.
There are lots of 'levels' of hyper-bity-activity

He sleeps in our annex, with run of an enclosed yard within a bigger garden.

I think he is getting tired and/or overstimulated
So I have started to shut him in his room with a treat and a bone and a good doggy and cuddles to force him to take naps during the day

Also, walks in between, (2 times 20 mins per day)
We are all on holiday for August, so there are people around but he has been left on his own since young so is used to that.

Having a raw-hide bone at hand helps
I am thinking of getting some of those chews I saw referred to on here - 'Yackers' or the like? It'll have to be internet bought tho.

I am also training him to come back (currently clearing 'outer' big garden of things he can chew etc, but v. soon)
Ball throwing
Sitting on walks
etc
All good -he loves it

And lots of cuddles - we are besotted with the little b#gger

He has snapped on my wife's hand when she was trying to get a fruit stone out of his mouth, but that was badly done as she said she knows she pushed him too far (she grew up with Cockers here)
He does get territorial over things he has picked up, but I can open his mouth with finger and thumb and get pretty much out of his mouth if I am nice about it and let him know its mine - he might make a few grumbles, but I think he's being pretty accommodating about that.

My 9 year old daughter has taught him to sit and lay down, and she gets in there and picks him up and puts him in the cooler (out in the yard) when he starts snapping at her, so I'm not worried about that - although it seems obvious that he thinks she is the easy option for a step up the pecking order rung. next is my wife, I am top dog (at least in this :) ) all those nights of going out to him for poo breaks etc that I seemed to have ended up with were worth it :)

He was 4 weeks late going outside as the first vaccine done before we got him turned out not to be sufficient when we went to our vet expecting to get the second set. Although I did start taking for walks on the lead around the 'outer' garden from an early age - he is very good on the lead
Getting him outside on walks is helping a lot (pulls a bit but is learning as I become a bollard if he pulls too much (and I keep him very close on a short lead by my heel
He also loved a swim in the estuary

Socialising with other dogs on leads is fine (if very energetic :) )and he has had lots of children and adult visitors since we got him
There are lots of guard dogs left in empty houses around us so he sees a lot of aggressive behaviour as we walk around - I am minimising this by choice of route, but he is learning to be calm when we pass a snarling doberman etc

So, sorry for the ramble, not even sure if it is easy to answer this post actually, but time is up - daughter and hound are calling :)

Um grande abraço a todos!
(a big hearty hug to all)

Leigh

Offline Gerryjane

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2019, 03:11:59 PM »
I think we all know how those teeth feel and yes mornings and evenings are the witching hours. Use lots of long tuggy toys to teach play and prevent the biting before it starts. Pups are 24/7 for some time!
One plea ..... please don’t take things off him unless dangerous ..... and especially don’t force his mouth open unless a really dangerous situation or object. Doing that is actively training him to resource guard and could have terrible consequences further down the line. My OH did exactly that and was in hospital for a long time!!
Teach him to swap .... give him something of higher value than what he has picked up. There is lots of info online but some of it way out of date and disproved now.
Enjoy your pup 😀

Offline ejp

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2019, 05:59:43 PM »
Salty sounds like a normal happy puppy, and yes, those little needles for teeth are infamous!  Agree with Gerryjane, never forcibly remove anything from him, unless it is dangerous.  You are storing up trouble.  Swapping for something higher value, in this house a bit of chicken, sausage, or even a biscuit usually results in a quick and easy exchange.

Offline lescef

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 09:44:50 PM »
Sounds like a normal cocker! Plenty of sleep - 18 hours over the day I think is the puppy quota! That will help him to be less growly.  Please don't give raw hide chews. They can swell up inside the body and cause a blockage. There are lots of other chews around although none last as long as raw hide.
I agree with others about not taking things from the mouth, definitely do a swop for a tasty treat, although you'll find it becomes a bit of a game for them.... sock...treat..... slipper..... treat!  :005:
It is a good idea to teach them to let you open their mouths so you can check their teeth and gums, I taught it as part of the grooming regime. Gently open the mouth, inspect then reward.
Enjoy!
Lesley, Maddie and Bramble

Offline Gerryjane

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 11:20:21 PM »
If you google Chirag Patel teaching DROP there’s a great video on teaching a good drop. He is a well known and respected trainer. We started this early just dropping bits of chicken around to teach the concept and at 20 weeks he was even dropping dead mice kindly left on the patio by the cat ..... cat’s revenge for us getting a pup  :lol2:
It takes time but really worth it. Tug games are also useful for teaching a thank you and drop.
Hope this might be helpful.

Offline Lobo do Mar

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2019, 04:53:38 PM »
Thanks,
Will stop the taking out of his mouth then and try the swap.
But 95% of the time its taking nesperas (a small tree fruit with big pips/stone) that he picks up from the garden that i am worried that he will choke on. But he seems to know how to get the stone out and then break it up and eat the insides. We do try to keep them cleaned up but 100% efficiency is not poss.

Will also substitute rawhide chews

Regular time out naps with praise and a treat are working a .... treat

Thanks again

Offline IonaD

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2019, 04:56:30 PM »
I’ve just watched that video. It’s genius!!

I have been going about it all the wrong way with Bella. When she would get something in her mouth I would try and get it out or she would think it’s a game and just run away.

It’s a great recommendation.

Offline Lobo do Mar

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2019, 06:42:15 PM »
video looks great,thanks
I need to get more tug toys too

Offline Lobo do Mar

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2019, 10:28:58 AM »
Hi,
Salty is now 5 months
He is getting to be a bit more of a handful, so am asking for advice / assurance :)

First the good stuff:
He loves cuddles and is very affectionate
He is pretty good on the lead on the walks, pulls a bit but getting better, always sits to cross road etc.
He can sit when commanded and do what he is told when in the right mood ...
I can touch his paws, put my fingers in his mouth etc etc and he is fine. Even grooming is getting better :)
Out on walks or to new places and with new people he is an absolute darling - sometimes too jumpy, but not like with us at home ...
etc etc, there are loads of good things.

Next...
I was always top dog and he was trying his luck more with my wife and 9 yr old daughter, however now he is pushing against me too, and the play/attention biting is getting more and he wont stop or come close enough when commanded for me to take him and put him in the cooler (his annex bedroom for a nap / time-out).

*So, this is the main point of the post - he has become uncontrollable when he gets in his bitey mood, and I cant grab him to take control.

I have to admit that today when he was particularly hurting me I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck in desperation / red mist - I still feel very guilty and am sure that this is the WRONG thing to do generally and in terms of training him.

*So here is my dilemma - I am in the middle of the patio (or in the house) and he is jumping in and out whilst biting my calves (OUCH!!! :) ))

If I run for and vault over the gate I am not being in control and showing who is the leader.
If I stay still he will devour me and my shorts :)
If I (try to) grab him it becomes an aggressive power struggle game that I see leading to disaster.
If I stand there saying 'Ouwwww!' like another dog would (I read it in a book) he just laughs 'Mwuuuhhahaha!' and really knows he has got me and goes in even harder.

*What should I be doing - specifically to get a hold of him, and generally at this stage?

I thought of a 'house line' but if I leave this on him he will chew it to bits

I think the increase in this biting is perhaps due to two things; the teething &/or his age/trying his luck ?
I am pretty sure the biting is for attention
He can mouth on my hand when having a cuddle (softly enough with some nips as his teething gets him)
The biting (as opposed to mouthing) seems to be a mix of 'I'm here' together with jockying for position.
I am sure Salty is not a timid dog, and is pretty headstrong and would like to be (more) dominant (although he still knows how to hide behind my legs :) )

We had a couple of 'incidents' when I took him off the sofa (he had been trying to assert his 'right' to go on sofa for a while) - he growled and aggressively snapped at me - this was a shock as it had never really happened like this with me

We have stopped taking things from his mouth, I am using the swap /Drop technique from this lovely forums advice and its much better.

There are a lot of aggressive holiday home guard dogs around here (its Portugal...), so I try to set the route to minimise these encounters, and praise him for remaining calm.

I am still trying to force him to nap regularly in his Annex. The problem is that he is also put there as a penance for biting and he is spending more and more time there, or in his yard, and less time in the house which I thin could be counterproductive

I try to play with him with ball etc, but this is getting harder/less appealing due to the biting

2 walks of 20 mins a day on the lead on the roads and on a 5m extendable lead in the forest (I am not ready to trust him off the lead yet, one step at a time)
Could I give him more exercise yet?

Getting his lead clipped on his collar is a game with biting, but its getting more difficult/aggressive - I think I might have to go back to giving him a treat as I put it on

He is very erratic with eating. Sometimes he eats it all, sometimes he barely touches it. If I don't stand there with him he will not eat - he has been like this since we got him at 9 weeks. However, if I shut him in his bedroom with the food then he mostly eats it - but I dont want feeding to become associated with isolation/leaving/punishment. I have to say that I try to feed him breakfast, lunch and Dinner times - but need to be more set on times.

I'm sorry for the somewhat chaotic post (I put *'s by the main thrust of the post's questions), but it is a bit of a reflection of my state of mind on this conundrum at the moment!







Offline Gerryjane

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2019, 05:05:42 PM »
Hi I will reply in more detail later as we are going out but just wanted to say first of all this is normal puppy behaviour and yes it is hard work!! He is not trying to dominate you or be top dog, that’s not how dogs work and that theory is about 15 years out of date and disproved  :lol2:
Puppies explore with their mouths and their teeth are sharp, running away tells them you want to play and often so does yelling or ouching if they bite ..... game on from their point of view.  :D
Long tug toys everywhere at all times to teach him what he is allowed to bite. If it gets too much scatter some kibble on the floor for him to find whilst you move away. Play from the other side of a baby gate if it gets too much .... I did this in the evenings with Toby.
Bully sticks and yakers are good chews.
Moving him off the sofa is a bit like taking things away .... teach him an OFF using rewards not confrontation otherwise he could begin guarding spaces from the horrid humans who take his stuff  :lol2: :lol2:
We use all Toby’s food allowance for training and rewards. We use tastier rewards if it’s something hard like being around dogs or busier places. Think of it as wages ..... would you work for nothing?? The harder the work the higher the pay needed.

There is a brilliant Facebook group called Dog Training Advice and Support DTAS. It has loads of up to date info on science based training written by experts.
I do hope that helps ..... it will get better but he will also become a teenager like ours who is now nearly seven months and can’t settle down at bedtime   >:D

Offline Lobo do Mar

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2019, 10:37:35 PM »
Thanks,
That does help - some stuff to try there - especially the kibble strewing, and will try the alternative sofa strategy, although since our altercations he hasn't tried to get up there again, yet!
I cant find Yakers for a reasonable price down here unfortunately.
Bully sticks - I remember them smelling real bad - like a bull's pizzle in fact - from my previous dog, do the odourless ones not smell / any specific website or brand to look for?

We had a great day, walk in the morning, then a meander around the garden outside his walled patios with him on his long lead, him coming back when called, sitting on the step together with a cuppa watching the word go past
Naps in the afternoon and he let me get most of the burrs out of his coat

Then this evening he gets all bitey again. So I took him out on a walk and he was very well behaved on the lead
But then when we got back home and into his patio and I let him off the lead he started jumping at my calves biting again.
I had a rope tug toy ready which worked for a few paces but then he was back on the calves.

I Decided to experiment and to stand still and try to ignore him (teeth gritted) but he just bit harder and actually punctured my leg a bit with one of his remaining three syringe-like canines.
At this he was ushered smartly but calmly to his bedroom by his collar (with great restraint on my part, if I do say so myself :) ) and shut in there for a few minutes. When I went back in he was lying on the floor looking sheepish (although that could be in my head), so I let him out into the patio again and I beat a measured, controlled and nonchalant retreat out of the patio and over the gate (trying to look far more confident than my bare calves were feeling).

That's it for tonight, he has been put to bed for the night and is lying on the patio door step now, where he usually sleeps (despite having his own bed in the annex) - I dont blame him its a lovely clear night and still over 20 C.

How to I teach him that a boring rope tug toy is tastier than my legs :) ?


Offline PaulJ

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2019, 11:01:11 PM »
Sounds like a pup for sure.

Z is almost six months now and lots of ups and downs along the way. There is so much I could say about all you are going through...we have all gone through it to various degrees.

Try and keep your behaviour calm and be consistent with all that you do. A pup will learn what off and no mean when said calmly. We don’t need to use a growling stern voice...it is hard sometimes for sure. I want to keep that stern voice for when it’s really needed.

One thing we used that really helped with Z was using a release phrase. We use it all the time. Coming out of crate, waiting by closed door/gate, meal time, before play, after grooming, release from placeboard, free to do what he wants etc. It sometimes means things takes longer to do though!

Most importantly just have a laugh with pup. Create that bond so those spaniel eyes are all for you!

That being said Z is becoming adolescent so I suspect we will the stripping it all back down soon  :005:


Offline Gerryjane

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2019, 08:14:11 AM »
Agree with Paul :D

It is hard at times and almost feels personal when they are in biting mode. Have to keep remembering that it is normal puppy stuff and it will pass. When the adult teeth come in at least the needles have gone.
I agree bully sticks can smell horrible ..... I used Best Bully Sticks which didn’t smell and ordered from Amazon in the past for our retriever but they are American and are now so expensive I have to order from Maltbys also through Amazon. I have to put up with the smell as it keeps him busy chewing when needed. I don’t know if Paul might have another recommendation??
I avoid using anything that might originate in China.

Offline Ben's mum

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2019, 08:56:30 AM »
this all takes me back to when my first cocker Ben was a pup - if I am honest he was vile and completely shattered my expectations of what owning a dog would be, I was convinced I had been sold a velociraptor  by mistake  :005:  I didn't know about COL then and at that point 'dominance theory' was at its height so everyone told me he was trying to be pack leader.  We made mistakes that I know impacted on his behaviour for the next 14 years  :'(

To be honest once we realised he was just a clever normal cocker pup who needed to use his brain things changed.  we used to do lots of brain games, he had to use his nose to find most of his meals as it was scattered round the house, he quickly hammered through all the toys on the market and we invented games for his clever little brain.  For example start with two pots put a biscuit under one of them swop them round a few times and then they have to learn to touch with either nose or paw the right one to get the treat.  Ben got up to having 4 pots moving/swopping quickly and he nearly always got it right.  We found as soon as he used his brain for 30 mins or so he was shattered and sleepy and very cuddly - the perfect pup.  Once he stopped biting he was a joy.

We also changed our way of thinking initially we had the rule that he wasn't allowed on the furniture, and there would be a battle to get him off.  However someone said to me just because you can 'make' him do it it doesn't mean that's the only way.  We taught the command off and on with a treat reward.  So he would jump up or down on command.  it stopped being a battle, to be honest after about a year we just gave in and decided we loved having him up on the settee and cuddling.

Ben became just the best boy ever but it was a steep learning curve, from what I know now cockers are!!  I would never have another breed now the love laughs and fun they bring far outweigh the cockerdile start  :luv:  Looking forward to haring how Salty gets on

Offline Lobo do Mar

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Re: Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile hybrid
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2019, 09:28:57 AM »
Thanks,

Salty and I have bonded very strongly, no worries there, and I know he won't be like this forever (and he already isn't bitey always, it just switches on and off), its just I am not experienced enough to know the right way to approach this, so this forum is gold-dust in that respect - thanks!

The shame is that at the moment he is usually outside since as soon as he comes in he is at our legs.
Our house has no doors downstairs so shutting him in a room inside is not an option
I wonder if we should get a pen or something for inside so he can be in the cooler but near us?
I worry that we are just pushing him outside and making things worse

We let him in the house this morning when we all got up (7am) and he was as ever hyper excited to see us, we try to be calm but it eventually turned from a licking frenzy to a bitey frenzy.
But as soon as I put his lead on (get him to sit, give him a small treat and pop it on) he instantly transformed back into Dr Jeckyll, then no pulling on walk (actually he sat down a couple of times to try to make me wait, as if mimicking me when I stop when he pulls too much :)) and generally great behaviour, no biting me or even the lead

Keeping calm of mind and voice is my main aim and I'm going to do some structured training- its all been a bit ad-hoc up till now
He is very bad at jumping up, which I have never been able to stop

We also need more chews and more brain games
And I will change my behaviour model away from a 'dominance theory' based one

I'm supposed to be on holiday  :lol2: