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Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: DennyK on April 03, 2007, 03:00:41 PM

Title: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: DennyK on April 03, 2007, 03:00:41 PM: I didn't want to hijack Patti's thread, hence the new topic.

I completely agree with Mark's (and Penel's) perspective in Patti's thread that leadership is what we should aim for - not "bossing" and all the dominance/dominating of your dogs which that implies.

However, it's made me start thinking about whether, because I'm so keen to avoid "dominating" Paddy (i.e. avoiding the "Boss Model" of ownership) that I'm failing to give leadership as a result. I always think of us as poddling along together...

What has made me think more deeply on this issue is that, having consumed the Turid Rugass book "Calming Signals " (great book for anyone thinking of buying it - more of a booklet really, easy to read in under an hour but needs more study to absorb) and finally begun to absorb it, I'm convinced that Paddy is showing signs of stress at times - unexplained panting, lots of offering his paw endlessly in the evenings.

So: how do I go about analysing what I should be doing and identifying what I need to stop or modify to assess if I'm the leader?

Denise
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Rhona W on April 03, 2007, 04:36:54 PM: Quote from: DennyK on April 03, 2007, 03:00:41 PM
I'm convinced that Paddy is showing signs of stress at times - unexplained panting, lots of offering his paw endlessly in the evenings.
Sorry absolutely no advice to offer at all. But just wanted to ask:
Is that a sign of stress then? :-\ Casper often pants in the evenings and is restless. We just thought he was too hot as we have the heating on. :embarassed: But he is an anxious/stressed dog at the best of times. :'(
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Cob-Web on April 03, 2007, 05:11:29 PM: I've never been happy with either term - purely because of the negative associations with dominance that both words have had - BUT - the definition of the term "leader" that I was recently given on a Leadership training course defines perfectly what I think a dog needs:

Someone who guides and inspires

Although I don't like anthropomorphisms, when I think of what I look for in a leader, it is also what I try to provide Molo (and lil'bit ;)):

Consistency - rules stay the same, and don't vary from day to day, or person to person
Clarity - requests/instructions/commands are clear and delivered in a way that is understood
Compassion - recognition that there are things that will affect the ability to achieve

IMO, if these are in place, then a dog (or child) feels secure - which makes it a lot easier to learn new things :D If I feel myself getting anxious, wound up or frustrated then I try to remember to check:

Am I being consistent (has someone else fed from from the table, which is why he is begging?)
Am I being clear? (in agility, I am learning that my body may be saying something totally different to my voice ph34r)
Am I being compassionate? (Is there something else influencing his behaviour? Can he smell another dog, or is this a new place for him to learn?)

This works for me - but has taken me a long time to get to this point.....and I still have a long way to go before it comes as naturally as I would like it too ;)
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Dragon on April 03, 2007, 05:24:32 PM: Quote from: IWLass on April 03, 2007, 05:11:29 PM
- the definition of the term "leader" that I was recently given on a Leadership training course defines perfectly what I think a dog needs:

Someone who guides and inspires
Yes, I'd agree. A good leader fosters confidence and a genuine desire to please and/or succeed. A boss gets results but not always guides and inspires. A good boss is also a leader. Our dog Molly, bosses Sasha but is a hopeless leader.
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: spanielcrazy on April 03, 2007, 05:39:07 PM: Suzanne Clothier also makes a wonderful addition to the term leader in her book "Bones Would Rain From the Sky": A leader protects, defends and cares for their pack. A leaders job is to serve, as much as to be served.

It prompted me to ask myself the questions, do my dogs feel protected by me? Do my dogs feel that I can take charge of a situation? Do my dogs feel that we have a cohesive "pack" within which they can feel safe and relaxed?
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: cdpops on April 03, 2007, 05:45:09 PM: It prompted me to ask myself the questions, do my dogs feel protected by me? Do my dogs feel that I can take charge of a situation? Do my dogs feel that we have a cohesive "pack" within which they can feel safe and relaxed?

OMG all these threads are mind blowing, I keep thinking I am doing Ok and getting the hang of things and then I read something and I am again thrown into doubt as to wether I am fit to own Charlie. I don't thinh Charlie would react the way he does if he felt as above.

I think you need to be a leader consistently but occasioanlly you also have to be a Boss too!
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: spanielcrazy on April 03, 2007, 05:59:24 PM: Quote from: cdpops on April 03, 2007, 05:45:09 PM

OMG all these threads are mind blowing, I keep thinking I am doing Ok and getting the hang of things and then I read something and I am again thrown into doubt as to wether I am fit to own Charlie. I don't thinh Charlie would react the way he does if he felt as above.

I think you need to be a leader consistently but occasioanlly you also have to be a Boss too!

Oh it will put your mind in a dither! :005: But i think it's a good kind if it leads you to explore and learn and constantly ask questions.

Of course you're fit to own Charlie because you are willing to work with him, where others wouldn't. And Charlie's difficulties may have more to do with his basic nature, and perhaps even a chemical imbalance- which they haven't even begun to explore in dogs- than anything that you have done. As long as you are willing to learn and adjust, Charlie is in the best place he could be :luv:

And I agree absolutely, a leader consistently, occasionally a boss! ;)
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Penel on April 03, 2007, 06:17:10 PM: In multi dog households things are different again - in our house Tilly is definitely The Boss, but she is still a leader. But I must remember I am not a dog, so my actions can never be the same as Tilly's. ie: I would not flatten Hattie if she tried to steal my dinner. Actually Hattie (nor any of the others) would never dare to even try and steal Tilly's dinner because of the respect she has from them all.
I just hate the word Boss - to me it implies that you are dominating your dog just because you can - which to me, is a form of abuse. OK abuse might be a bit strong - but I can't think of a better word right this second. I want my dogs to cohabit happily with me, and I try to train them how to behave, rather than to make them behave by scaring them, which is what a lot of owners do.
When I walk with my dogs and another dog appears, I usually find myself telling them it's ok don't worry I have it under control :D by saying this to them I usually find we do have it under control - it's just a self confidence booster really, that generally works.
Denise - why do you think Paddy is stressed (if he indeed is stressed) - or could he just be seeking attention/ bored ? you should bring him over for a walk soon ;)
An anxious or stressed dog can be this way for so many reasons.....
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Jan/Billy on April 03, 2007, 11:32:48 PM: Quote from: Penel on April 03, 2007, 06:17:10 PM
ie: I would not flatten Hattie if she tried to steal my dinner.

:005: :005: :005: :005: This made me chuckle :005:
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Jan/Billy on April 03, 2007, 11:33:24 PM: Quote from: spanielcrazy on April 03, 2007, 05:59:24 PM
Quote from: cdpops on April 03, 2007, 05:45:09 PM

OMG all these threads are mind blowing, I keep thinking I am doing Ok and getting the hang of things and then I read something and I am again thrown into doubt as to wether I am fit to own Charlie. I don't thinh Charlie would react the way he does if he felt as above.

I think you need to be a leader consistently but occasioanlly you also have to be a Boss too!

Oh it will put your mind in a dither! :005: But i think it's a good kind if it leads you to explore and learn and constantly ask questions.

Of course you're fit to own Charlie because you are willing to work with him, where others wouldn't. And Charlie's difficulties may have more to do with his basic nature, and perhaps even a chemical imbalance- which they haven't even begun to explore in dogs- than anything that you have done. As long as you are willing to learn and adjust, Charlie is in the best place he could be :luv:

Yes I totally agree ;)
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Jan/Billy on April 03, 2007, 11:38:36 PM: Quote from: Penel on April 03, 2007, 06:17:10 PM
In multi dog households things are different again - in our house Tilly is definitely The Boss,

Do dogs only have a pecking order/pack when they live together? or can it be dogs that they know but do not live with?

The reason I ask is that Billy has a bitch cocker spaniel play mate, when she was a puppy Billy was always putting her in her place & telling her off. BUT now she is a grown adult its her who bosses Billy around :o :o & he just lets her :lol: It's really weird how they have completely switched positions. They see each other every day during the week, so will they be in a kind of "pack"?
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: spanielcrazy on April 03, 2007, 11:43:20 PM: Usually males will defer to females. So when she was a puppy it was an adult/child situation with Billy as the adult, now that she is a grown "woman", Billy is being a gentleman :005:
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Penel on April 03, 2007, 11:45:57 PM: Hi Jan,
yes definitely. When dogs meet each other they are immediately sizing each other up, wanting to work out who is above who type thing. Most dogs are very polite to Tilly cos she is an older female and she doesn't tolerate "rudeness" ;) so dogs that know each other well, they know each other's place in the "pack". For example, I often walk with my friend and her four terrorists - all boys(terriers!) - they are all extremely polite to Tilly - they all love Lola, cos Lola is a playful softie, they are slightly wary of Hattie cos she's a bit temperamental, they love running fast with Barley, and they wish Gracie would play with them. And within their pack, the old man doesn't get messed with - my dogs are very polite to him, even though he is the tiniest little terrier you could meet. The next one down is a bossy sometimes stroppy so and so, and again mine wouldn't consider messing with him - the younger two are just fun and games.
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Cob-Web on April 04, 2007, 07:46:57 AM: Quote from: Jan/Billy on April 03, 2007, 11:38:36 PM
Quote from: Penel on April 03, 2007, 06:17:10 PM
In multi dog households things are different again - in our house Tilly is definitely The Boss,

Do dogs only have a pecking order/pack when they live together? or can it be dogs that they know but do not live with?

Molo and Snoopy have a definite pecking order, and Rocky is starting to fit in there too ;) They see each other upwards of twice a week - and regularly visit each others home and are often fed together ;)
Interestingly, Molo is The Boss, but the least feisty of the two - like Tilly, he has made it clear where the boundaries are and Snoopy sticks to them so there is rarely any aggro :005: It doesn't automatically mean that Molo gets to do everything first, either - Snoopy always drinks first at the end of a walk, and will defend that - Molo just backs off ::)

Other dogs seem to sense this when we are walking together, too - Snoopy is the one they play with, and Molo gives a cursory sniff and then goes off to do his own thing......he will grumble at them if the boisterous play gets too close to him, too - grumpy s*d ::)
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Saffie on April 04, 2007, 08:52:25 AM: One thing that I often wonder with regards to being 'Leader' in the pecking order with Saffie. When I take her to the vets or to the groomers (and leave her there), does she see this as me letting someone do things that aren't nice (even tho they are not harming her) and because it is me that has left her in these situations therefore she can not see me as the leader as if she is under my protection then I wouldnt leave her and let these things happen. If that makes sense!
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Cob-Web on April 04, 2007, 09:21:27 AM: Quote from: Saffie on April 04, 2007, 08:52:25 AM
One thing that I often wonder with regards to being 'Leader' in the pecking order with Saffie. When I take her to the vets or to the groomers (and leave her there), does she see this as me letting someone do things that aren't nice (even tho they are not harming her) and because it is me that has left her in these situations therefore she can not see me as the leader as if she is under my protection then I wouldnt leave her and let these things happen. If that makes sense!

I don't think that they can rationalise things in the same way as we can - she might not enjoy the experience, but is more likely to associate it with the person who is doing it, rather than "hold you responsible" for taking her there in the first place :005:
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Dragon on April 04, 2007, 04:33:16 PM: Quote from: IWLass on April 04, 2007, 09:21:27 AM
[
I don't think that they can rationalise things in the same way as we can - she might not enjoy the experience, but is more likely to associate it with the person who is doing it, rather than "hold you responsible" for taking her there in the first place :005:

I so hope you're right. I took Molly to the vets today to have a really tight bandage cut off. I whimped out by asking them to take her into another room, because I didn't want Molly to associate the fear with me. What a wuss I am. I'm obviously falling apart :005:
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Penel on April 04, 2007, 05:02:18 PM: You're wise to get them to do it if you can't cope - no point making things worse.
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Saffie on April 05, 2007, 12:12:46 PM: Do you 'lose-face' then if your dog is attacked while out walking and you are there as pack leader should defend the pack?
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Cob-Web on April 05, 2007, 01:39:18 PM: Quote from: Saffie on April 05, 2007, 12:12:46 PM
Do you 'lose-face' then if your dog is attacked while out walking and you are there as pack leader should defend the pack?

This is one of the reasons I don't like the word "leader" - because it is associated with a "pack" ;) Although I want to provide leadership to my dog, I do not fulfil the role of "pack leader" in the way that another dog could; dogs aren't stupid - they know that we aren't dogs and do not relate to us in the same way as they would another dog ;)
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: bluegirl on April 06, 2007, 05:55:48 PM: This subject is a bit heavy for me, but I give leadership to my dogs, my dogs trust my judgements and accept for the most part my commands. In return for their loyality I treat them all with respect. They know that I would never knowingly endanger them in whatever situation I put them into. When Penny was pregnant she gave me her utmost trust when she was going into labour and was frightened for she knew I was only there to help her and not harm her. She allowed me to be there for her at the births and take over when necessary.
Amongst the 3 dogs, Penny is boss for she is the pups mother and they seem to respect that status. They do torment her from time to time, but if she growls they both immediately submit and back off. Out of the pups then Phoebe is boss and although they get along very well together she will put Logan in his place or any of the other pups should it be necessary.
For the most part I have a regular local dog walking route which I take the dogs on, mine know these other dogs as we often bump into them and I have noticed they do treat certain dogs with more caution that others as if they know they should.
Title: Re: "Leader" -v- "Boss"
Post by: Joelf on April 07, 2007, 05:42:07 PM: Quote from: bluegirl on April 06, 2007, 05:55:48 PM
This subject is a bit heavy for me,

Same here!! :shades: