DNA Health results for siblings.

[vixen]

I have recently viewed a puppy and asked to see the health certificates of the parents.
The breeder was unable to show me mum certificate but said that she had her sister’s health certificate (litter sister ) and that was sufficient as it would be the same as for her sibling as it would be too costly to test again.
Is this correct?  When looking on line, I have read that even within the same litter, health results can vary.
I am not an expert so just wondered if the breeder was telling me the correct thing.
Thanks

[Pearly]

Sadly the breeder is not being straight with you.  Siblings can be carriers or even affected by certain conditions and without the certificate and microchip ID you won’t know.

It’s only £125 to have a bitch fully heath tested plus £90 for the eye test and Gonioscopy.  Some say to have hips and elbows scored but this is not an essential for cockers, however, it is good practice.  Given the price of pups now, why would a breeder not health check! It’s a very small amount compared to the income they are about to generate.

In our case we have health checked.  We have the certificate.  She’s also had her eyes tested so we know what sort of sire to look for.  Next on the list is desirable attributes, temperament and working standard.  We are also giving away three pups and charging the minimum for the others that will go to friends.  Any sold to people we don’t know will be at a sensible price and failing that will be given to a rescue to go as service dogs.

I would suggest to find a breeder who has health checked both sire and dam and charge sensible prices for their pups.

[Toofast]

I would want to see actual certificates for the actual mother and father. Are these DNA health tested and for what are they tested.

Vet test certificates are useless and are only clinical tests on the day of the visit to the vet.

All puppies from a litter of which both parents have been DNA tested can be "Hereditary clear" by parentage,  if both parents each have the same clear DNA tests.
 
It may help if you get onto the Kennel Club Health test finder site, but you will need to know the KC registered names of the dogs in question.

Take care with your purchase!!!!
Good luck.
.

[vixen]

Thank you so much Pearly and Toofast.
The certificate i was shown was the DNA test for the 6 common problems for cockers and litter sister was clear for all 6 conditions.  Does this mean her sister (the puppy’s mum) would be too? 

[vixen]

The breeder regularly take part in trials and wins awards and that influenced me to think they were reputable  However, I did begin to have doubts. When I asked to see certificates before giving a deposit, I was told just to pay deposit and I would be shown certificate when I paid the remainder.  I stood my ground and said I wanted to see health certificates first. I had seen mum and dad, both lovely dogs and was told on 3 occasions who dad was and his pedigree.   When I went today to see health certificates of mum and dad, I was shown the dam’s litter sister’s certificate (and told that was sufficient) and the name on the certificate of the father was actually a different dog to the one who I had been told was the sire (on 3 occasions).  Breeder said they had got the name wrong previously.  This made me extremely uncomfortable and breeder said they had never known such a fussy customer.   I left which was difficult as puppy himself was lovely.  I have been feeling that I am paranoid for not trusting the breeder.

[Pearly]

Thank you so much Pearly and Toofast.
The certificate i was shown was the DNA test for the 6 common problems for cockers and litter sister was clear for all 6 conditions.  Does this mean her sister (the puppy’s mum) would be too?

In a word, no.

It’s likely the litter sister would be ok but without knowing the DNA results for their sire and dam, you would not know for sure.  It’s possible the dam (pups mum) would be clear of all six conditions but also possible she’s a carrier which could be passed on to the pup also as a carrier.  Worse, if the sire is also a carrier the pup may be affected.

Most triallers are careful with breeding.  They do so to produce the best offspring and high quality pups.  Few health test so I’m not overly surprised to see what you’ve written.  What does concern me is that it sounds as though you are being fed misinformation, intentional or not, the trialler has a reputation to keep and should know better! They should certainly know the name of the sire used!

Are they part of the assured breeders scheme? Do they have a licence to breed? (I don’t but as previously stated I won’t be advertising or selling for a profit).  Are they a big kennels so mistakes over names may occur?  I have a really good friend who I would trust with breeding but can’t recall which dog with which bitch and relies on their partner to keep them straight with paperwork - they would, however, be honest and tell you that!

[Pearly]

Thank you so much Pearly and Toofast.
The certificate i was shown was the DNA test for the 6 common problems for cockers and litter sister was clear for all 6 conditions.  Does this mean her sister (the puppy’s mum) would be too?

Thought about this some more.  Why is one of the litter tested but not the other, seems odd to me. 

The very big, well recognised names in trialling tend not to health test and have never had a problem - they stake their reputation on this.  They are also straight enough to tell you that if you speak to them about breeding or going on to a wait list for a pup.  I think I would rather be in that situation with a known risk than feeling I’ve been misled and still have a risk!

[vixen]

Thank you Pearly.
I am really upset as I feel my paranoia may have lost me a lovely pup.  The breeder does have a licence to breed dogs and did have about 5 litters of various ages when I first visited which I thought was a lot. I would say he had about 10 adult dogs in all so not a massive establishment.  I just wonder if I had not insisted on seeing a health certificate for dad, would he have put the first dog mentioned as the sire on the pedigree?  He kept giving me deadlines to pay the deposit and when I insisted on seeing the health results first, told me pup had been sold.  But then he always got back to me.
I just assumed that a breeder would be happy to show health documentation to any potential buyer yet I was made to feel unreasonable.
I was totally in shock when I looked at the certificate today and it had a different sire on it.
I am still thinking about the puppy and what will become on him.
When I looked on the Kennel Club site for assured breeders, are all the breeders of cocker spaniels on it as it seems quite a short list (75) for the many breeders out there for the 2 different strains?

[bizzylizzy]

Don‘t know anything about breeding practices but it sounds to me as if you just handled on your gut instinct and that rarely lets you down. When buying anything if value, (and what‘s more valuable than the companion you‘ll be bringing into your life for the next 15 or so years?) you need to have trust and that was obviously missing here. I wouldn‘t fret, the right pup for you will come along in good time! 
Good luck

[sueneil]

Not all breeders of cockers are KC Assured Breeders. Many of us breed a litter only occasionally and do so responsibly. Never buy from untested parents-you can check for tests via the Kennel Club's Health Tests Results page if you know the registered names of the parents- I always advise prospective puppy buyers to do this. Siblings do not always have the same results as litters can contain a mix of clear, carrier and even affected puppies especially when parents are not fully tested. Finally- if people can afford to breed a litter they should be able to afford the cost of testing!

[vixen]

Thank you sueneil and bizzylizzy for reassuring me.
WHen I looked on the Kennel Club health test results page it doesn’t tell me anything apart from the the pedigree of the dog and the COI number.  This is for dogs who I know have got clear DNA profile results too. I don’t know if this is because I am not a member of KC and thus not allowed to see detailed health results.