Author Topic: peole how work their dogs- advice please  (Read 2801 times)

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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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peole how work their dogs- advice please
« on: May 24, 2008, 11:31:35 AM »
Hi all,
me and OH own our first working cocker. We thought we had chosen a rebutable trainer to help us out with some lessons and decided to take Jack at 5mths for a lesson with him (just a basic obedience lesson so we could meet him and see what we thought). Jack is terrible for pulling on the lead but its completly our fault as he only spends about 2mins a day on lead  ph34r
I explained this to the trainer and said i was going to start taking him on more lead walks and use the stop method. The trainer put a slip lead on Jack and used a popping method to get him to walk to heel, obviously Jack was walking beautifuly to heel within 10mins but it made me feel uncomfortable. I explained to the trainer how i felt and that we had only used positive methods on Jack but he said you cant train a gundog to work using only positive methods and although you should never be hurt your dog there had to be some disipline. I have never even raised my voice to Jack and to be fair the trainer never told me to but did say i had to use a low voice with jack when he was doing something wrong and a high voice when he was good.  Am i just a complete softy or can you train a dog to work using only positive and negative reinforcement. thanks

Cazzie

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 11:37:11 AM »
Can you explain what he did in getting him to walk to heel on the lead that made you feel uncomfortable  :blink: Also yes you can train a Gun dog to work using positive methods but it does not happen over night. Those that use negative and harsh methods are people looking for quick fast results which often can have an adverse affect.  :blink:

Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2008, 11:41:07 AM »
when Jack pulled the trainer tugged the slip lead so it tightened then brought Jack back and told him to hup in a harsh voice and when Jack did he told him good boy in a higher voice. He did it round my arm first and did say it shouldnt be pulled tight enough to hurt the dog or chock him just a quick tug to let Jack know he was doing something wrong and get his attention and bring him back to heel. But i have always been told this is not the way to train a dog and that the stop method (stopping when he pulls and encouraging him back to heel with a treat) takes longer but is alot kinder. Is the tugging with a slip lead regulary used by people that work their dogs?

Cazzie

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2008, 12:15:08 PM »
when Jack pulled the trainer tugged the slip lead so it tightened. He did it round my arm first and did say it shouldnt be pulled tight enough to hurt the dog or chock him just a quick tug to let Jack know he was doing something wrong and get his attention and bring him back to heel. But i have always been told this is not the way to train a dog and that the stop method (stopping when he pulls and getting him back to heel) takes longer but is alot kinder. Is the tugging with a slip lead regulary used by people that work their dogs?

No need to tugg at all, if trained correctly the lead should never be on full strain and should always be kept loose and held lightly in one hand. Tug as in tug sounds harsh doesnt it  :-\ I give a gentle tug (if you can call it that) on the lead to change direction and to train to walk to heel which does literally take minits to teach and never ever hurts my dogs as if it did I wouldnt do it.

Teaching the stop command to get your dog to walk to heel isnt the way id do it. Mine are taught the stop command which is used when out in the working field or just even on a walk to get your dog to stop the minit its told (well not so much in Sweepies case)  :005: The stop whistle command I use is the very same one that I use for the sit command. My older dogs will when working automatically sit when I stop as I have trained them whilst walking to heel when I stop they sit. The Labs are Brilliant at this, cockers (depending on the dog) different ball game sometimes but fun trying  :005: :luv:

It took me a long time to find a Gun Dog trainer who's methods I was extremely comfortable with. It takes a long time to train a dog to the standard required in the shooting field and tbh there is no rush to get out there any earlier than is absolutely neccessary. It also depends on the dog, some are easier to train than others. If your not happy with the guy have a word with him and tell him how you feel as you should certainly not be feeling uncomfortable in training you dog. Other than that find another traininer you feel happier with.  :blink:

I take it you plan on working your wee dog  :D


Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 12:41:58 PM »
sorry i didnt mean stop command to the dog i meant i stood still and refused to move while Jack was pulling so he didnt get anywhere, its so hard explaining things over the internet  :005:
I did tell the trainer my concerns and he was very good with that and spoke to me about it without patronising me or having an i know best attitude. He did explain things well and accepted that i was trying to get my head round this style when i had been told it was wrong and cruel by others. My OH had been telling me that i was going to be told i couldnt let Jack on the sofa anymore for cuddle time and give him treats while teaching but he was wrong. The trainer said that wasnt a problem and i could still have mummy and Jack cuddle time  :luv:
every book i read or person i talk to tells me different things. I loved the positive guide to dog training but also the Joe irving training books and they contradict each other so much its hard to know what to believe.

Offline Helen

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2008, 01:13:22 PM »
I think the trainer should put the slip lead over his own neck and then you give it a good tug - an arm doesn't have a windpipe and a delicate throat and comparing the effect of tugging on an arm to a dogs throat is archaic and pathetic.

Are you intending to work your dog?  Are you going to any other training sessions at the moment?

I took Jarv to one gundog training session and after being told 'he's either a pet, or a working dog - no inbetween' I never went back.  This guy had beautifully trained but robotic labs who's only free running was 30 mins running after a dummy each day.  The rest of the time they were kennelled  ph34r

A lady called Helen Phillips has clicker training for gundog courses, and a book as well if you google it  ;)
helen & jarvis x


Cazzie

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2008, 02:04:17 PM »
sorry i didnt mean stop command to the dog i meant i stood still and refused to move while Jack was pulling so he didnt get anywhere, its so hard explaining things over the internet  :005:
I did tell the trainer my concerns and he was very good with that and spoke to me about it without patronising me or having an i know best attitude. He did explain things well and accepted that i was trying to get my head round this style when i had been told it was wrong and cruel by others. My OH had been telling me that i was going to be told i couldnt let Jack on the sofa anymore for cuddle time and give him treats while teaching but he was wrong. The trainer said that wasnt a problem and i could still have mummy and Jack cuddle time  :luv:
every book i read or person i talk to tells me different things. I loved the positive guide to dog training but also the Joe irving training books and they contradict each other so much its hard to know what to believe.

You do what suits you and your dog, one thing is for sure you never stop learning  ;)

Offline cazza

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2008, 06:27:06 PM »
Gun dog trainer i went to for walking on lead encouraged the dog back to beside him just with his voice, but it was jolly and friendly voice, there was no tugging on the lead at all and basically stop if the dog went to far forward and quickly encourage the dog back to you before they get to the end of the lead  :D

This meant you really really have to concentrate 100% on your dog and can't let your mind wander off at all but it worked and didn't hurt my dogs neck at all  ;)

There are a few COLer's who use slip leads (I can name at least two), and as long as the leads are used correctly then they don't hurt your dog at all, but you do have to be really careful with them

Cazzie

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2008, 06:37:59 PM »
Here is a picture of Belle on a slip lead walking beside me as an example for you, this is how the lead is at all times when its around her or any of my dogs necks, nice and loose and the same with Otter when I showed him on a slip lead  :blink: The only time I have a problem with any of my dogs on a slip lead is Sweepie when she is out with my other dogs at the start of a walk, ive stopped putting her on a lead or collar in those situations now  :blink:



Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2008, 09:52:48 PM »
thank you everyone for all the helpful comments. I have another lesson in two weeks so il talk to OH and make my mind up after the second lesson as i was happy with the trainer apart from the slip lead issue.

Offline zorgi

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2008, 10:12:55 PM »
Hello all,

I am Zsolt from Hungary. I would like to introduce my first working cocker who is the first in Hungary.
He is Brian. He was coming from UK.
http://www.brian.spanielsport.hu/images/77.jpg
http://www.keptar.spanielsport.hu/agfalva/images/55.jpg
http://www.keptar.spanielsport.hu/agfalva/images/56.jpg
http://www.keptar.spanielsport.hu/agfalva/images/59.jpg

And some videos about our training.
http://www.spanielsport.hu/videotar.html
Zsolt

Cazzie

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2008, 11:26:17 PM »
Hello all,

I am Zsolt from Hungary. I would like to introduce my first working cocker who is the first in Hungary.
He is Brian. He was coming from UK.
http://www.brian.spanielsport.hu/images/77.jpg
http://www.keptar.spanielsport.hu/agfalva/images/55.jpg
http://www.keptar.spanielsport.hu/agfalva/images/56.jpg
http://www.keptar.spanielsport.hu/agfalva/images/59.jpg

And some videos about our training.
http://www.spanielsport.hu/videotar.html

Brilliant photos  :shades:  but unfort couldnt see the videos  :'(


Offline cazza

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2008, 08:28:49 AM »
Zsolt - Brian is gorgeous and really well trained well done to you  :D

Cazzie

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Re: peole how work their dogs- advice please
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2008, 09:39:26 AM »
Zsolt - Brian is gorgeous and really well trained well done to you  :D

Yes he is a superstar  :shades: Well done you  :shades: