CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: loumeg on May 17, 2008, 02:38:25 PM
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Hi all
We have a new addition to our family. A bitch called Cookie. She is only 19 weeks old and is very intelligent and i am wondering whether or not to go down the line of getting involved with field trials etc. But as you probably can gather from this post i know nothing at all about this and need your advice. I have just spent time researching her pedigree and neither of her parents were champions or even entered into competitions (i know they were pets). on her pedigree most of the FTCH is from her fathers side and then the majority listed as FTCH are males.
here are the most recent listed champions and their generation in relation to Cookie.
Sandford Black Mamba - Grandfather
Wernffrwd Dai Bach - Great Grandfather
Kigaro Minnie - Great Grandmother
Cadboll Zachary - Great Grandfather
All above from Fathers side
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Roanlodge Treacle - Grandfather
Mallowdale Rackatear - Great Grandfather
All above from mothers side.
I know i am asking a lot but can any one advise has cookie (Miss Loumeg Cookie Crisp) any prospects in the field as she has not immediate champions.
Many thanks for any he ::)lp.
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Competing with dogs in any discipline is fun, for both the dog and owner :D No matter what ancestry your dog has, she (and you) will benefit from training and taking part in trials, beating, agility or even obedience; and it is an added bonus if she does well and begins to bring home awards :D
Have fun !!
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Can you give me any info on where to go next in relation to training etc. I really am an novice and dont know where to start. ::)
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At 19 weeks old, she will benefit from some basic puppy classes, which teach the basics and help teach you how to train her :D
Try http://www.apdt.co.uk/local_dog_trainers.asp to find a local trainer that runs classes in your area - or ask at your local vets or even pet store. Go along and watch the classes if you can before you sign up, and never do anything that you are uncomfortable with.
As she gets older, you can decided which disciplines you would like to progress in; all of them will need a good basic training, and once you go along to puppy classes, you will begin to learn what type of training you and she enjoys :D
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Competing with dogs in any discipline is fun, for both the dog and owner :D No matter what ancestry your dog has, she (and you) will benefit from training and taking part in trials, beating, agility or even obedience; and it is an added bonus if she does well and begins to bring home awards :D
Have fun !!
Gun dog scurries, agility, gun dog training - yes, all fun...but I would I would never EVER call field trialling 'fun' - it is very disciplined and intense and takes a huge amount of training and commitment ;)
I'm sorry to sound negative - but I'm trying to be realistic! Just because Cookie has these lines does not automatically mean she is a field trial prospect, especially if she is primarily a pet and not a working dog (similarly my working cocker who has a large amount of FT CH in his ancestry would not make the grade - actually he might, but my training capabilities are far below that required)
Enjoy your pup, take her to puppy training, and see how she evolves ;)
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:-\ :-\ :-\ I am not really into competitions that would be stressfull and excessivly time consuming as both myself and my Oh work full time. What i do want however is for Cookie to have the best and dont want to short change her abilities. This sounds naff i know but i want to know i will have given her the best of everything :blink:
She is such a treasure i thought i was being unfair by not following in what is her ancestry
Thanks for all the advice it has given me a lot of food for thought :shades:
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If you want to go down that route of field trials etc I wouldn't let anyone put you off :D
But honestly agree that at the moment first thing to do is basic obedience and then once Cookie is older and obedient contact a gun dog trainer and have lessons ;) Even if you don't want to compete they are good FUN
You say you work full time but surely if you want to do this you will find 15 minutes every day rain or shine to do some training :D
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Hi :blink:
One of my fav boys "Sandford Black Mamba" :luv: :luv: :luv: :luv: I you fancy going down this route, then get yourself involved with a gun dog club or similar, go and spectate at the cocker trials and see what you think. I love to watch the trials people working their dogs but its a whole different ball game to training a dog to work in the shooting field or similar (the dicilpine is paramount) I dont think there has ever been (or there maybe have been 1 or 2) very successful field trials dogs out there that were first and foremost pets but it certainly does not stop you trying. Getting involved with a local gun dog training club is great fun and will aid you in training you to train your dog and bring out the best in what your dog has been bred to do and will also give you all the information you need in trialing dogs and will be the first to tell you if you and your dog have the potential. Go for it and enjoy your dog :shades:
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Gun dog scurries, agility, gun dog training - yes, all fun...but I would I would never EVER call field trialling 'fun' - it is very disciplined and intense and takes a huge amount of training and commitment ;)
I'm sorry to sound negative - but I'm trying to be realistic! Just because Cookie has these lines does not automatically mean she is a field trial prospect, especially if she is primarily a pet and not a working dog (similarly my working cocker who has a large amount of FT CH in his ancestry would not make the grade - actually he might, but my training capabilities are far below that required)
Enjoy your pup, take her to puppy training, and see how she evolves ;)
I agree with this, most working cockers have at least a few and often quite a lot of FTCHs in their pedigrees but relatively very few dogs are of a suitable standard or achieve the required level of training to actually be successful in FTs themselves. I have 3 working cockers and all of them have lots of FTCHs in their pedigrees; the older two are good working dogs and we have a lot of fun beating and picking up and doing scurries but they are not of the required grade for competing in tests or trials. Only the youngest one is *possibly and potentially* of a quality to compete and I'm not even talking about field trial level yet, I'm planning to do a few working tests with him to see how we both get on and will take it from there.
Training dogs to work can be great fun though and it's brilliant to train your dog to do what they're bred to do so I'd definitely recommend you find yourself a good basic training class as your pup's still very young and then look for a gundog trainer or a gundog training group in your area if you do decide to have a go at a bit of field training later on :D
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Cazza: Yes we deff would spend time we currently spend 1/2 of her walking time doing some basic training such as returning to the whistle and sitting on command. She is generally very good but when distracted (usualy another puppy who is willing to play) im sure she thinks up yours im not coming cos she completly ignores the whistle. I end up going and getting her i know i shouldnt but i feel bad cos the other dog owner is usually chasing the pair round in circles :005:
Nicola: I have been looking on the net at cookies pedigree and ancestry i cannot help noticing how much she resembles your dogs (liver and white) do they have a genetic link or is this coincidence. Just wondering cos i dont see many cockers with their colouring.
Marie
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Nicola: I have been looking on the net at cookies pedigree and ancestry i cannot help noticing how much she resembles your dogs (liver and white) do they have a genetic link or is this coincidence. Just wondering cos i dont see many cockers with their colouring.
Marie
They could have some common ancestors, in fact they probably do, many workers are related via a few popular dogs. Tilly my liver bitch with the white chest was bred in England whereas the other two are Scottish breeding. I don't have her pedigree to hand just now but I think I posted it on here before, I'll try to find it.
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Thanks Nicola that would be great. Is liver a common colour????
Marie
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Thanks Nicola that would be great. Is liver a common colour????
Marie
It is actually, solid liver and solid black are pretty common colours in Working Cockers. There are quite a few solid liver dogs on COL :D
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I can't find Tilly's entire pedigree just now (I moved house and it's in a box somewhere!) but I know some of it by memory and I've looked some of it up on here where I've posted before. Her Grandsires are FTCH Mallowdale Rackatear on her dam's side and and FTCH Wernffrwd Siarl on her sire's and she has the following dogs amongst others in her 5 generation pedigree. She's a well bred dog and a great worker, I wish I'd had her from 8 weeks old instead of 2 years (she's a rescue)...
FTCH Parkbreck Jefferson
FTCH Jasper of Parkbreck
FTCH Wernffrwd Pawn
FTCH Maesydderwen Kestrel
FTCH Wernffrwd Silk
FTCH Swallow Law Snipe
FTCH Wernffrwd Melyngoch
FTCH Smut of Jordieland
FTCH Kigaro Minnie
FTCH Gwibernant Llewellyn
FTCH Zelda of Cadboll
FTCH Rhu of Migdale
FTCH Gwibernant Snake
FTCH Jade of Livermere
FTCH Maesydderwen Griffon
So it looks like she and your dog are related on their dam's sides via FTCH Mallowdale Rackatear, being Tilly's grandsire and your dog's Great Grandsire. Tilly's dam is called Cragglands Mystery but I don't really know anything about the breeder with her being a rescue. I've never been able to contact him.
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Thanks for that Nicola after comparing with Cookies pedigree there are quite a few matching on her dams side and also some on her sires side. Just been saying to cookie "look its your relation" but she just looked at me like i was barking :luv:
I will get a good photo of her cos the reseblence is uncanny. :o
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Just been saying to cookie "look its your relation" but she just looked at me like i was barking :luv:
I know that look well, I get it a lot :lol2: Would love to see a photo of Cookie, there are some better ones of Tilly here...
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=42954.0
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Read with thread with great interest, Nicole you made my heart sink :'( we have messaged before with field questions, after reading your comments),
I agree with this, most working cocker's have at least a few and often quite a lot of FTCHs in their pedigrees but relatively very few dogs are of a suitable standard or achieve the required level of training to actually be successful in FTs themselves. I have 3 working cocker's and all of them have lots of FTCHs in their pedigrees; the older two are good working dogs and we have a lot of fun beating and picking up and doing scurries but they are not of the required grade for competing in tests or trials. Only the youngest one is *possibly and potentially* of a quality to compete and I'm not even talking about field trial level yet, I'm planning to do a few working tests with him to see how we both get on and will take it from there.
If you remember me from Australia where there are only 3 working cocker's here, none in NSW, I'm still plodding away at training my two, who are show cocker's with not a FC in sight on the pedigree, and they are also pets occasionally sleep on bed with me, and me never trained dogs before previously had Airedales one passing first Obed pass. Do I have no hope at all :'( :'( after reading many different articles "show dogs do hunt" and knowing that in Europe they also have to pass a working test to get there CH. I was on my soap box of they are gundogs now feeling very disillusioned :huh: knew it was not going to be easy. Just found the Sporting Spaniel Club(which is all springers working I assume) who run a couple of spaniel trails each year, I know I will never win anything but was hoping to get them to standard (over years) then at least attempt to trial and maybe a pass. Have just got in contact with club asking where trial is so I can go and watch after your comments now feeling like they will not take me seriously and I'll look foolish turning up with show cockers.
:'( :'( :'(
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Read with thread with great interest, Nicole you made my heart sink :'( we have messaged before with field questions, after reading your comments),
I agree with this, most working cocker's have at least a few and often quite a lot of FTCHs in their pedigrees but relatively very few dogs are of a suitable standard or achieve the required level of training to actually be successful in FTs themselves. I have 3 working cocker's and all of them have lots of FTCHs in their pedigrees; the older two are good working dogs and we have a lot of fun beating and picking up and doing scurries but they are not of the required grade for competing in tests or trials. Only the youngest one is *possibly and potentially* of a quality to compete and I'm not even talking about field trial level yet, I'm planning to do a few working tests with him to see how we both get on and will take it from there.
If you remember me from Australia where there are only 3 working cocker's here, none in NSW, I'm still plodding away at training my two, who are show cocker's with not a FC in sight on the pedigree, and they are also pets occasionally sleep on bed with me, and me never trained dogs before previously had Airedales one passing first Obed pass. Do I have no hope at all :'( :'( after reading many different articles "show dogs do hunt" and knowing that in Europe they also have to pass a working test to get there CH. I was on my soap box of they are gundogs now feeling very disillusioned :huh: knew it was not going to be easy. Just found the Sporting Spaniel Club(which is all springers working I assume) who run a couple of spaniel trails each year, I know I will never win anything but was hoping to get them to standard (over years) then at least attempt to trial and maybe a pass. Have just got in contact with club asking where trial is so I can go and watch after your comments now feeling like they will not take me seriously and I'll look foolish turning up with show cockers.
:'( :'( :'(
I don't really have any experience in Show Cockers at all let alone training them to work but I really hope what I said hasn't put you off training your dogs!! The point I was making in what you've quoted above is that a dog's working/trialling potential is NOT dependent on the amount of FTCH dogs in their pedigree. I'm not sure how that has made you feel like you have no hope as I haven't mentioned Show Cockers at all... And my dogs are first and foremost pets as well so again I didn't mention that as being an issue. What I did say about very few dogs being of the required standard to make serious contenders for Field Trialling is true but that's something we all have to live with, I have two dogs myself who aren't good enough to trial but that's ok, we still have a lot of fun and just because they're never going to win a trial or even compete in one doesn't mean that I'm going to stop training them and actually taking them out beating and doing scurries and stuff. I'm just being realistic about their abilities but as I said my youngest dog is a competition possibility and I'd say to anyone who thinks they have a dog with potential like this go for it, reach for the stars, if they've got the ability and the training is in place then their breeding isn't an issue. The infamous FTCH Jade of Livermere, one of the best and most widely used Working Cocker dogs ever seen was bred out of two non-FTCH parents.
Of course all Cockers are gundogs, again, I didn't say they weren't... I didn't mention Show Cockers or their abilities at all!! I have said in another thread recently thought that I would love the opportunity to train a Show Cocker to work one day and I probably will do it at some stage. By all means keep training your dogs and join the club, I don't know the situation in Australia either so I honestly don't know what 'reaction' you'll get from the other members, that's down to them but I don't see how anything I said would make you think that they'll think you're foolish :huh: My emphasis in my post was on the level of training being more important than the breeding of the dog so if anything that should encourage you (if you take what I say to heart ph34r :005:) as it implies that the 'type' of dog isn't as important as the level of training they reach - I am of course referring specifically to Working Cockers in my post though as that's what I have and it's what the OP who I was responding to has as well.
I would really think that if your dogs are trained well enough then you'll have the respect of any fellow gundog trainers or workers regardless of their breed or type and from what you say it sounds like your two are doing pretty well which is something to be proud of ;)
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Thanks Nicole, So sorry, ::) having a bad day, they seem to choose when they respond to the whistle I had just got back from the park with one out of the two responding nicely one even stopping on the whistle at about 15 steps away but Indi being Indi choose to ignore me while on a scent, and would not come back luckily I managed to grab her and whisk her into the car outing terminated. Still waiting for SSC to get back to me, they know I have Show Cocker's interesting to see if they contact me. Then I read the thread and felt worse why am I bothering, but I'll not give up always knew it was going to be a challenge, I just get very frustrated with the various clubs here and always being the odd one out and no-one taking me serious " what are you going to do with those they cant handle the terrain here" here Labs and GSP and Viz dominate the field so anything else is way out, let alone turning up with 2 show cocker's. They also don't have scurries or picking or beating so my choices are limited and never getting any positive feed back gets to me now and then. Also I asked a groomer (cocker person) to help me give them a hunting cut, and she refused don't think she agreed with me taking them in field, said they are show cocker's and with there coat should not take them in the field. So I did it myself they don't look to bad :005: :005: should have gone shorter , next time.
Thanks again for kind words, this is why I like this site its the only time I can get constructive advise and a pep talk to put me back on my soap box which is needed when dogs run off or training goes westwood as I'm trying to work this out alone and with a few books . Must go and train again, feeling better and now more determined. :embarassed: :luv:
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Hi all, Ive been on here for a while now looking and lurking :005: with not much to say, just enjoying all the lovely photos of your babies but i feel the need to chat with you because i think my lovely coco is related to Tilly and Cookie she too has many of the same named dogs in both of your pedigrees on her dads side and she is the spitting image of cookie, her mums history wont be found anywhere here though as she was a liver and white springer this makes her a sprocker but everyone that meets us thinks she is a working cocker. Coco is the first spaniel we have owned (three westies before)and we are absolutely thrilled to bits with her and love her to death, haven't thought about working her though as she was only ever going to be a pet (although her older brothers and sisters are used for beating and her dad is a working dog). I don't really understand all the working stuff as you can probably tell. I will try to post a picture soon but bare with me I am quite a novice at computors too :lol2:
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looking forward to seeing the photos :luv:
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Dylan is aslo related , also on the sire side, i got Dylan in Knaresborough and is now 7 months. His parents were both working dogs, but i didnt get him to work him . Hes the most softest gentle dog i know, apart from when is ripping the ears, noses and eyes off his soft toys :005:
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Hi
We are just new to Cockers on line even though we have had our little working cocker for 4 months now. She is now 6 months old and is a little sweetheart and an absolute joy. We have just realised that our Tia has quite a few of the same pedigree as yourselves and looks identical to Cookie and Tilly and was quite the star at the game fair in Moria yesterday...with all the lab owners checking her out!!! I will try and post a picture once I work out how..
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Hi all, Ive been on here for a while now looking and lurking :005: with not much to say, just enjoying all the lovely photos of your babies but i feel the need to chat with you because i think my lovely coco is related to Tilly and Cookie she too has many of the same named dogs in both of your pedigrees on her dads side and she is the spitting image of cookie, her mums history wont be found anywhere here though as she was a liver and white springer this makes her a sprocker but everyone that meets us thinks she is a working cocker. Coco is the first spaniel we have owned (three westies before)and we are absolutely thrilled to bits with her and love her to death, haven't thought about working her though as she was only ever going to be a pet (although her older brothers and sisters are used for beating and her dad is a working dog). I don't really understand all the working stuff as you can probably tell. I will try to post a picture soon but bare with me I am quite a novice at computors too :lol2:
Where are the photos :D :D Cant wait to see CoCo
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Hi
We are just new to Cockers on line even though we have had our little working cocker for 4 months now. She is now 6 months old and is a little sweetheart and an absolute joy. We have just realised that our Tia has quite a few of the same pedigree as yourselves and looks identical to Cookie and Tilly and was quite the star at the game fair in Moria yesterday...with all the lab owners checking her out!!! I will try and post a picture once I work out how..
We Need Photos. They are a must ;)
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Hi I am very proud of myself as I have just posted my first photo of coco (with a little help from my son,) so now I know what to do there will be no stopping me. Just have to suss out the aviator thing now :005:
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[IMG==width640]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/sharonmc_2008/tia027.jpg[/img]
ok there may now be a picture floating about somewhere on col....... :lol:
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Hi I am very proud of myself as I have just posted my first photo of coco (with a little help from my son,) so now I know what to do there will be no stopping me. Just have to suss out the aviator thing now :005:
Where did you post it :huh: :huh: :huh:
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(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/sharonmc_2008/tia027.jpg)
ok there may now be a picture floating about somewhere on col....... :lol:
here you go, you had an extra = in your post ;)
she's very sweet :luv:
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I posted it on photos of working cockers hope you can see it :D
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Nicola, I didn't realise but Spud is quite closely related to your Tilly as his Sire is
Parkbreck Jefferson and his GrandSire on his Dams side is Wernffrwd Siarl. Like you I wish that we had got him earlier, he is also a rescue and we got him at 3 years old having had no Gundog training at all.
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Nicola, I didn't realise but Spud is quite closely related to your Tilly as his Sire is
Parkbreck Jefferson and his GrandSire on his Dams side is Wernffrwd Siarl. Like you I wish that we had got him earlier, he is also a rescue and we got him at 3 years old having had no Gundog training at all.
Oh wow I didn't realise that either :D That could be where they get the size from cos Spud's a big boy isn't he :luv:
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Yes he is big for a cocker, even a worker
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Just want to Say that my Alfie who is 21weeks now, has most them names in his pedigree too, out of his 5generations, 38 of them are FTCH.
We are considering working him too.....just getting obediance out the way first!!!
He is Choc and Tan and he to is a very big boy!!
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I can't find Tilly's entire pedigree just now (I moved house and it's in a box somewhere!) but I know some of it by memory and I've looked some of it up on here where I've posted before. Her Grandsires are FTCH Mallowdale Rackatear on her dam's side and and FTCH Wernffrwd Siarl on her sire's and she has the following dogs amongst others in her 5 generation pedigree. She's a well bred dog and a great worker, I wish I'd had her from 8 weeks old instead of 2 years (she's a rescue)...
FTCH Parkbreck Jefferson
FTCH Jasper of Parkbreck
FTCH Wernffrwd Pawn
FTCH Maesydderwen Kestrel
FTCH Wernffrwd Silk
FTCH Swallow Law Snipe
FTCH Wernffrwd Melyngoch
FTCH Smut of Jordieland
FTCH Kigaro Minnie
FTCH Gwibernant Llewellyn
FTCH Zelda of Cadboll
FTCH Rhu of Migdale
FTCH Gwibernant Snake
FTCH Jade of Livermere
FTCH Maesydderwen Griffon
So it looks like she and your dog are related on their dam's sides via FTCH Mallowdale Rackatear, being Tilly's grandsire and your dog's Great Grandsire. Tilly's dam is called Cragglands Mystery but I don't really know anything about the breeder with her being a rescue. I've never been able to contact him.
Just been looking through a few past threads.....its raining and cold and nothing on tv !!
Bramble and Beri have 7 of the above FTCH's in their 5 generation pedigree.
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Nicola - how do you assess whether they are likely to be trials standard? I have an old dog 12 now - he had field trial champs on both sides - Sire FTCH Amerdown Echo dam Parkbreck Latimer . I never trained him other than basic obedience but he had and still has strong retrieval instincts and was very trainable.
I am getting a pup soon with strong FTCH lines (FTCH WHaupley Scarp) - I will gvie basis discipline training then go to gun dog training but I am still unsure as to what I should be looking out for before I embark on serious training for field trials (or not as the case may be). He will be a 'pet' like all our dogs.
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It's all a combination of natural ability and training really. Breeding can come into it but the majority of decently bred working cockers have fairly similar pedigrees, particularly once you go back a few generations and most are full of FTCH dogs but relative to the numbers bred very few dogs are actually capable and well trained enough to reach this standard. A dog with trialling potential has to have a natural aptitude for working - hunting, retrieving etc. and has to enjoy it. That is the most important thing and it's something you unfortunately can never guarantee a pup will have even with the 'best' breeding in the world. Training obviously plays a big role but basically a dog either has 'it' (that natural ability) or they don't. They need to be bold, stylish and confident but also biddable, focussed, steady and controlled and they also need to be completely silent when working, even the slightest whimper in a competition and you're out. They need to be able to think for themselves but still be responsive to their handler. Amongst other things (this is off the top of my head) they have to be able to hunt quickly, thoroughly and stylishly in all kinds of cover, mark fallen game, obey commands at a distance, jump obstacles, swim, retrieve dead and live game to hand, find and retrieve running game and be able to work alongside other dogs.
When looking at pups it's always a bit of a Russian roulette as it's almost impossible to tell at 8 weeks which dogs could make it and which haven't a chance but as an overview I would look for an active pup which doesn't make any noise (whining, yipping etc. when excited are a huge no no), which has a bold and inquisitive but calm character (no fearful, timid or overly hyper tendencies), has a natural tendency to pick things up and carry them around, shows an interest in something you throw for it and shows responsiveness to humans - I usually clap my hands and/or whistle at different times and see who shows an interest in what I'm doing and I also make a loud noise and obviously a pup which shows any signs of fear or timidity would be out of the equation.
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Thank you Nicola. I have just chosen a pup from a litter - now 3 1/2 weeks - very confident and strong - BUT he had been separated from his mum for me to see and he barked a lot >:(. I do hope that was just because he missed his mum. Our 12 year old working cocker only barks when someone comes to the door - then not much. Fingers crossed - must be hard to stop I imagine. Neither parent barks much.
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At just 3 1/2 weeks any puppy would probably squeak when taken away from mum so I wouldn't worry too much about that. If he's still doing it at 8 weeks it would be more of a concern! Looking forward to seeing photos of him.
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here are the most recent listed champions and their generation in relation to Cookie.
Sandford Black Mamba - Grandfather
Wernffrwd Dai Bach - Great Grandfather
Kigaro Minnie - Great Grandmother
Cadboll Zachary - Great Grandfather
All above from Fathers side
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Roanlodge Treacle - Grandfather
Mallowdale Rackatear - Great Grandfather
All above from mothers side.
I've just been looking at Murphy's history - he has: Mallowdale Rackatear - as his Great Grandfather too plus Wernffrwd Dai Bach - as his Great Great Grandfather!!!!
I can't find Tilly's entire pedigree just now (I moved house and it's in a box somewhere!) but I know some of it by memory and I've looked some of it up on here where I've posted before. Her Grandsires are FTCH Mallowdale Rackatear on her dam's side and and FTCH Wernffrwd Siarl on her sire's and she has the following dogs amongst others in her 5 generation pedigree. She's a well bred dog and a great worker, I wish I'd had her from 8 weeks old instead of 2 years (she's a rescue)...
FTCH Parkbreck Jefferson
FTCH Jasper of Parkbreck
FTCH Wernffrwd Pawn
FTCH Maesydderwen Kestrel
FTCH Wernffrwd Silk
FTCH Swallow Law Snipe
FTCH Wernffrwd Melyngoch
FTCH Smut of Jordieland
FTCH Kigaro Minnie
FTCH Gwibernant Llewellyn
FTCH Zelda of Cadboll
FTCH Rhu of Migdale
FTCH Gwibernant Snake
FTCH Jade of Livermere
FTCH Maesydderwen Griffon
He also has Maesydderwen Kestrel/ Wernffrwd Silk as Great Great Great Grandparents.
Arrhhhhhh...we are all one big family!!!!!!
:luv:
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hi fuses dad is sandford black mamba and mam minnie of kigaro
fuse is black but his litter were chocolate black and tan and black .
fuse is very confident but if he see s a feather on the ground little down type ones he jumps around them and wont go near them so i think he will never be able to bring a duck back
hahahaha