CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: phoenix on May 26, 2011, 02:18:24 PM
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Could someone in the shooting fraternity tell me what rules marksmen culling foxes have to observe? There are six houses quite close together where we live, loads of foxes and a rapidly shrinking number of pet chickens including mine. A neighbour with a few acres of land has invited a shooter to kill foxes on his land, last seen as a pack of five. There is a public footpath across the field, neighbours with horses and children. He hasn't warned us about the bloke, the first I knew was from a fellow dog walker who encountered him at 9am on the footpath, challenged him, and he said he hadn't been told about the path. The next door neighbour saw him up a tree on her boundary and spoke to him as well, though he told her he was shooting rats.
I am now worried to death about my large ginger cat, poisoned rats for dogs and cats, and my friend's horses.
Should we have been informed, should the police know?
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I'm sorry i can't help you with facts about shooting laws,but wanted to say i wouldn't hesitate to ring the local police and ask them.
Sounds very worrying :-\
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OH gosh, that doesn't sound quite right :-\
I know our neighbouring farmer has decided to shoot foxes in his sheep field this year - he hasn't done in previous years but they've taken 3 of his lambs this spring (it's only a very small hobby farm) and as he pointed out there are more than enough rabbits and pheasants for them to feed from around here but they've got a taste for his lambs now :-\ However, it's his field and there are no footpaths running through it... I'd definitely contact the police and ask there advice
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Does point number 5 on here help? :huh:
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/rights_of_way/knowledge_portal/advice_notes/shooting
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Not sure why you're worried about poisoned rats when he's shooting :huh: I would ask the farmer for the shooter's contact details and give him a quick call to let him know about your cat and ask him any questions you may have to alleviate your concerns. It is quite common for landowners to invite shooters to control vermin (especially foxes and rabbits).
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I think she is worried the dogs might eat the poisoned rats.
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I think she is worried the dogs might eat the poisoned rats.
But he said he was shooting the rats, not poisoning them. Her post doesn't mention rats (or anything else) being poisoned, just shot. Or have I missed something :huh:
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Hi there
It is not an offence for shooting to take place in a field that has a public footpath. Though of course anyone doing so must take due care to avoid endangering members of the public or causing a nuisance.
On land surrounded by houses etc, it is normal to used a raised position such as a high seat or an upstairs window, to ensure the safe trajectory of the bullet. Which would probably be why the gentleman in question was up a tree.
In this particular case, what concerns me is that the person shooting had not familiarised themselves with public rights of way on the land concerned, a fundamental part of preparation before using a rifle on any piece of land.
Though it could be that he said this so as to end the conversation as quickly as possible!
Pippa
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Thanks for the advice,really useful.
As the intention is to get rid of the foxes, when he told someone he was after rats, i thought that he may be laying them as poisoned bait as well as just shooting the foxes.
Its interesting to mention shooting from a raised position, that obviously keeps stray shot/bullets going way, way on.
On reflection, I am not so annoyed with him, but livid that the unpleasant owner of the property couldn't be bothered to tell us to take care.
Thanks Megandmolly for the Ramblers guide to shooting, very clear and concise.
The odd thing is that we haven't heard any bangs yet!
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i would def contact him about your cat, as if its ginger he will prob shoot first and look later, it will give you a chance to find out exactly what is going on
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The odd thing is that we haven't heard any bangs yet!
I doubt you will hear any bangs as he is probably using a silencer and rifles are much quieter than shotguns anyway. My mate that kills foxes for farmer usies a sliencer and a high powered rifle so that the kill is quick and clean but it also means that he doesn't have to wait all night for another fox to appear. He got 5 one night. I don't like it, but these foxes were taking everyones chickens despite the abundance of rabbits.
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Have you called the police?
Owning a gun is oone thing -- using it in a public place is another. If he hasn't informed the police and doesn't have their permission then he is likely to have an armed response team descend on him. Think Raul Mote.
I was walking the woods that I often go to and heard gun shots. What am I supposed to do? Leave the woods in case one of us gets hurt? Call the police because I have no idea who is shooting what (or who)?
I like guns and would own guns for pleasure if the laws weren't so ridiculous (restricting them completely rather than appropriate controls) but using them in a public place without proper planning or informing local residents and the police of the times that they will be shooting? Sounds wrong to me.
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but using them in a public place without proper planning or informing local residents and the police of the times that they will be shooting? Sounds wrong to me.
Hi Pete
The use of a firearm by an authorised person, does not require the permission of the police each time shooting takes place. If it did, the police would be unable to cope with the paperwork! Several members of my own family for example shoot on a daily basis. To expect the police to monitor all that activity would be a hugely expensive exercise. Instead of monitoring every shooting activity that takes place, the law sets down stringent standards for the type of person that can be issued with certificates for the use of firearms and shotguns.
Everyone authorised to use a rifle such as that used to control foxes, is issued with a firearms certificate. In all cases this certificate will specify a piece of land where that firearm can be used. In addition, long standing and very experienced certificate holders may be issued an ‘open’ certificate which means that they can use their rifle on any piece of land where it is safe to do so, and where the landowner has granted permission.
Although there is no obligation to inform the police each time shooting takes place, in urban areas it is often a good idea to do this in order to avoid the ‘armed response’ scenario.
Informing members of the public is a very different matter and not an approach that would be recommended by the police. The result would simply be an outcry by all those that cannot bear the thought for example, of a fox being shot, no matter how many chickens are going missing. It is not possible to carry out pest control with a rifle, if the local community are staging a ‘sit in’ around the very chickens you are trying to protect! :o
I was walking the woods that I often go to and heard gun shots. What am I supposed to do? Leave the woods in case one of us gets hurt? Call the police because I have no idea who is shooting what (or who)?
Shooting takes place throughout the year in much of the British countryside. In my part of Hampshire it is entirely normal to hear shots fired from time to time. It is virtually unheard of for members of the public to be shot by those participating in legal shooting activities. Our safety record in the UK is second to none, and there are strict codes of practice governing shooting with regard to where and when a shot may be taken.
The legitimate shooting community, in response to the activities of ‘antis’ has in recent years become extremely discrete in going about their perfectly legal activities. Rifles and shotguns are usually sleeved and put away if members of the public approach, in order to avoid distressing them. When in the past we would simply have walked past, with the gun over an arm, and said good morning politely.
Unfortunately one of the effects of all this discretion is to make the public less aware of the shooting that takes place around them, and more alarmed when they come across someone shooting legally. I also think that all this secrecy makes it harder for members of the public to determine whether or not someone is shooting lawfully.
Whilst a disaster like that which took place in the Lake District recently is very frightening for the general public, it is worth remembering that almost all gun crime in the UK is committed by those holding firearms illegally, and in urban areas. It is also worth pointing out that the shooting community in the UK is one of the most law abiding, and mentally healthy group of individuals in the country, such are the rules governing the holding of certificates, and it is standard procedure to remove guns from anyone suffering from mental health problems or convicted of criminal offences. You are likely to be very safe indeed, in the presence of a person who has a firearm certificate.
I like guns and would own guns for pleasure if the laws weren't so ridiculous (restricting them completely rather than appropriate controls)
Actully, I don’t think our laws are ridiculous. The police vet anyone who wants a firearm certificate and review that certificate every five years in case that person’s circumstances have changed. They come to your home, interview you, and speak with your GP to make sure you are not mentally ill or depressed. They make sure that you have a genuine purpose for gun ownership, and that your guns are securely stored. And they take them away if you break the law.
If only such care were taken when issuing driving licences. :D
If you have good reason to believe that someone is shooting illegally in the countryside, then it makes sense to phone the landowner to check that they have given permission. If they have not done so, then it makes sense for you or them to phone the police.
If the shooting is taking place in an urban setting, that is a different matter, and you should definitely inform the police. If the activity is legitimate they are likely to have already been informed in advance
I hope that helps
Pippa
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Thanks Pippa for your excellent posts on this thread which are really helpful :D
Nice to see you on the board...and going completely off topic, am loving your avatar photo ;)
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Thanks Pippa for your excellent posts on this thread which are really helpful :D
Totally agree, your posts are very informative :D
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Thanks guys! :D
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Brilliant posts folks, something everyone should know.
If I see him I will warn him about my twenty year old ginger cat. The gunman obviously isn't being furtive and is complying with the regulations responsibly. We are a rural area with local gun clubs, in fact Saturday mornings can sound like a war zone when the red flag is up.
I find culling distasteful, but have lost many free range pet chickens over the years, all in daylight, as has the neighbour in question.
Now my OH wants a gun too!
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I should add that a cat should be easily distinguished from a fox. This is true even if it is dark and the shooter is 'lamping'. The eyes have a different coloured hue (red for foxes and green for dogs/cats).
I remember a potentially devastating moment when my father was lamping and saw a pair of eyes in the hedge. He looked down the sites and closed in to accurately identify who the eyes belonged to. There was a drunk tramp sleeping in a sleeping bag. This highlights why marksmen should ALWAYS identify what they are shooting at before shooting.
Also, I should add that a 'pack' of foxes simply isn't possible. At this time of year the cubs can be quite large and will be seen with Mum and Dad. This is most likely why you saw 5 in one place. If the family have raised 3 strong healthy cubs, they will almost certainly look at easy pickings like chickens. Foxes are strictly terratorial so, really, they should only be culled where they are causing considerable problems, particularly in winter. I have found that by ensuring you have a suitably nervous/shy vixen in your area, if you leave her alone, she will keep away any potentially bolder (chicken-stealing) vixens (in winter).
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Also, I should add that a 'pack' of foxes simply isn't possible. At this time of year the cubs can be quite large and will be seen with Mum and Dad. This is most likely why you saw 5 in one place. If the family have raised 3 strong healthy cubs, they will almost certainly look at easy pickings like chickens. Foxes are strictly terratorial so, really, they should only be culled where they are causing considerable problems, particularly in winter. I have found that by ensuring you have a suitably nervous/shy vixen in your area, if you leave her alone, she will keep away any potentially bolder (chicken-stealing) vixens (in winter).
Also sometimes an adult 'sister' from the previous year may help mum and dad raise a litter too - I once had a family at the bottom of my garden - they had 7 cubs with 3 adults. However, as with many urban foxes 5 of cubs succumbed to mange from poor nutrition (or were hit by a car).
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I would say if you have any further concerns, whilst it's not the 'right' way to go about it, speak to your local firearms officer. It's not his job to talk to you but IME they are always very nice people and are always happy to educate people regarding the laws around firearm ownership.
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(red for foxes and green for dogs/cats).
ummmm not exactly correct,my cockers eyes when lit by torch orange/amber defo not green!!
this topic has been interesting read,showing how non shooters easily assume that the shooter is in the wrong equally there has been some great info passed on fair play to all!!
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(red for foxes and green for dogs/cats).
this topic has been interesting read,showing how non shooters easily assume that the shooter is in the wrong equally there has been some great info passed on fair play to all!!
How things change! When I was young we had two fox skins used as rugs in the house and I would run around with the skins on my head playing a Red Indian. My old pop shot for most of his adult life but one day came in and said that he couldn't shoot a fox. And that was that, the guns and equipment were sold shortly afterwards.
I still think fondly of the shooting fraternity. To a man or woman they were all self disciplined with safety the priority. I never heard of one trying to kill a cat.
Remember, without shooting we wouldn't have the spaniels, retrievers, pointers, labs, etc.