change in behaviour

[west]

I have noticed a change in behaviour in our 3 yr old cocker bitch, Gretel.  We took her away at the weekend for my birthday walking in Malvern.  She seemed to be completely wired.  She has always been an active girl but I do maintain control. She has two walks every day off the lead and she usually walks to heel with no problem. I have found that the last few weeks have been problematic.  She is obsessed with dead things and will run away from me in search of them. She loves cat poo and has a natural obsession with game and deer (as you would expect!).  The problem is, she no longer listens to me and actively ignores me.  I am hitting the training hard but I think I need to do more.

She lives in the house and I was wondering if this is part of the problem.  I have noticed that she is more responsive if she has been alone in a cage or truck.  I was considering moving her out to a kennel. Do people have any opinions on whether this is fair on her and whether outside dogs make better dogs.  Is she getting too much attention?

We haven't changed her food (she is on Burns), we don't really pander to her but have been guilty of letting her fall asleep on us as we watch TV in the late evening. Is she too big for her boots?

Any comments would be gratefully received.

[west]

This is her BTW.  She was only a pup

[BillysMum]

well both of my dogs live indoors, sleep on the sofa, often on my lap and both listen to me while out on walks so i don't agree with the theory that kenneled dogs make better dogs but i'm not an expert so this is just my opinion.

Do you play with her on walks ? I'm wondering if she's finding her own fun because your not providing it (in the nicest possible way  ) when i'm walking my 2, its their time, i do training, find its, fetch, i hide and so they find that more exciting than chasing rabbits etc

Hope you find a solution. She is gorgeous by the way 

[Karma]

It's spring - there are LOTS of interesting smells in the air.
It's the time of year when you really have to redouble your efforts to keep training fun, and keep you as the most important thing in your dog's world.

[west]

BillysMum - I think there is truth in what you say.  No offence taken.  I also agree that there are many new smells in Spring. 

She is working strain and we do want her to work (ideally) so when I said 'do kennelled dogs make better dogs', really I meant do they make better workers.  I used to breed Partridge and when Gretel was a pup, she snuck out of the house and dug into my partridge pens, chasing all of the poults out of the pens and forcing their escape - my fault.  Since then, she has never even contemplated retrieving a dummy - she will only hold animals or birds. I think she is a classic case of a dog that has come into contact with game unsupervised and too early.  I like to take her to new places and encourage her to work the hedges and stay close.  In fairness, she does ok and she does get praised.  However, recently she has been running off at the first available opportunity and I think much of this is down to her early experiences.  When you catch/find her, what should you do? I know I shouldnt tell her off so I simply put her on her lead and make sure she does something for me (walk to heal etc) - I then praise her and play with her.

The reason I added this to the working area of the forum was for this reason. 

[Petepreston]

Hiya. As the provider for a Working Cocker, I've seen a lot of the behaviour you've described, and often for short phases, then it's off into another mode.

Posie is almost 2 and has always lived in the house with us and is spoiled rotten, but this doesn't seem to detract from her natural tendencies. She was born and raised (to 8 weeks) in an outside run with a shed as shelter. Her parents and grandparents are all working dogs on an estate, and I've heard/read that outdoor living makes them more attentive when you ARE with them, but I've seen Posie respond so well despite being a softy at home.

The breeder/gamekeeper that we got her from confided in me that if I wanted a lapdog all I had to do was pamper her but that she would still be a good worker. I think his dogs were outside as much because he owned about 6 Cockers, 2 Labs and a Terrier.

Recently Posie has become a water dog - although she still doesn't like swimming - and makes a beeline for the shallow river when we go out for a walk. This is something that she has only done if a stick was involved before now, but it's the fist thing she does even before finding a stick.

She's been doing some other little activities that are not her norm so I've chalked it up to being an early spring. Lots of people we meet have said the same about their dogs so it must be something in the air.

Have you got her trained on the whistle? I've found this to be the single best piece of training kit I've tried. She learned a new whistle this week but I'm running out of commands for her.

[Karma]

As has been mentioned to you, it's the allowing chasing behaviour that will make her unsuitable for working.  There are many members here who work their dogs, but their dogs remain pets and live in the house.

I think it would be highly confusing for a 3 yr old dog who has always lived in a house to suddenly be expected to adapt to a kennel environement. 

If you want to work Gretal, I would seek the advice of a gundog trainer (there are now gundog trainers who use positive methods, thank goodness).  If you are struggling with her running off, there is nothing wrong with going back to basics and using a long line to prevent her running off.  Much better to prevent then to be faced with what to do once they've gone and come back.

But in answer to that, you really need to show her that it is rewarding to come back to you... being put on-lead isn't really rewarding...  Honey disappeared for a few minutes this morning (very unlike her) - when she returned she got loads of treats, and for the rest of the walk *I* worked harder at keeping her focus on me, so she didn't get the opportunity to run off again... 

It could well be worth you looking at Top Barks' recall sticky at the top of the behaviour board, and starting from scratch with that... 

[west]

Thanks Pete - it is encouraging to hear that yours is the same.  Gretel is the same with rivers but that isn't a problem. I have tried whistle training but found she is very fickle with treats!

Karma - thank you I will look into this.  I wonder if I have given the impression that I have let her chase things and run off her whole life - I really haven't  . We have never really needed a lead up until now (unless near a busy road or for lead training).  I trained her to walk to heal and her recall has been fantastic.  She would work for treats and fuss but would never let you stroke her on a walk - praising was all in the voice. Flushing game was not a problem, she would flush and stand - as long as I am there to give instruction and call her in for fuss.

My problem is that she seems to have changed in literally one week. She whinges uncontrollably on the lead when out. My response to this is to ignore it and not acknowledge her.  When she goes quiet, she gets fuss and then is allowed to go off the lead running out and recalling back etc etc.  She knows where she will find dead rabbits and even if you think you are a safe distance, she will run off to find them. If she picks up scent of a pheasant, she will run off to find it.  When I get to her, she is running around like a wild animal chasing game.

It could be that the scents are so strong due to the good weather and the fact that the cock birds are starting to lek. 

But surely if I have to go to find her and I give her lots of fuss and treats, she will think it is ok run off and chase birds??!  I know that prevention is better than cure so I should just keep her on a lead or line but it has only been this week.

[Nicola]

Gretel is very cute, has she got a bit of show type in her as well? I work my dogs and they live in the house - would Rodaidh be a more focussed working dog if he was kennelled, quite possibly, but I have no problems with him as he is, he's an excellent worker and very biddable so it's never been something that I've contemplated doing with him. However, it is something that I may well do in the future at least part time if I have more field trial dogs; my youngest bitch, Caoimhe, is a trialling dog and she is kennelled for most of the year when she's with her handler and it does improve her focus, she switches up a gear into performance mode when she's in the kennel environment. However she lives in the house when she's with me and once she's retired from trialling and 'just' a working dog she'll be inside all the time like the others.

If your dog is ignoring you and bogging off you need to make things more interesting for her to keep her focus on you and don't give her the chance to get away, don't let her go any more than a short distance from you. If she likes retrieving game then take a bird or rabbit with you and use it for training, I almost always take a pigeon or rabbit (I keep a frozen supply) when I'm training Rodaidh and Caoimhe - Caoimhe will retrieve anything although dummies don't exactly set her world on fire after the amount of game exposure she's had and Ro will barely waste his time picking up a dummy now that he's had 3 seasons out working on the real thing. The game should keep her attention on you a bit more, you can hide it for her, plant things for her to find etc. If she's repeatedly bogging off and/or chasing you need to go back to basics, go after her and bring her back to where she was when you first whistled her and she ignored you. I used a trailing line on Caoimhe when she was a pup so that she never got a chance to get into the habit of ignoring me or going too far away (no more than about 6-8 feet to begin with) and especially never, ever chasing anything. You really need to stop that behaviour now as the more she gets the chance to do it the less likely she is to ever make a trustworthy working dog. I wouldn't let her hunt any gamey areas until you've got her steady and trustworthy or you'll keep putting yourself back to square one - 'boring' areas only for now and then gradually up the distraction levels. There are a lot of scents etc. around just now but if the steadiness is there it shouldn't have too much of an impact on the dog.

[west]

Nicola, thank you - that is great.  Gretel is 3/4 working 1/4 show type.  She has an annoying version as she has the hunting drive but a fluffy coat so we have resorted to shearing her, which keeps the burrs off her!  I will shoot some pigeons and see how we get on (I will save the breast meat for myself!).  I tried a rabbit skin dummy but she wouldn't pick it up.  Hopefully the real thing should help.

[spaniel04]

Really great advice from Nicola!

Just a word of warning, if you intend to use some pigeons as retrieves for your dog don't cut the birds to take the breasts out. You might just create another very serious problem of your dog wanting to eat the bird.    Make sure it is a cleanly shot bird, no exposed flesh etc.
Good luck. 

[west]

Great advice, but the first challenge is shooting a pigeon!  Will see how we get on