Author Topic: Undershot jaw  (Read 5364 times)

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Offline SarahS

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Undershot jaw
« on: January 21, 2008, 08:10:53 PM »


As some of you are probably aware, we paid rather a hefty amount for our little one, but we love him so it doesn't matter.  I was a little peeved when our vet said he had an undershot jaw though.  He does look different in the face from our last cocker, but unique. They are adamant it didn't show at the vet check at 8 weeks, but our vet picked it up at the 2nd jab.  His blood line shows that his paternal grandfather is also his maternal father  (or something like that)  Apparently this is line breeding, but I do wonder if it is the cause?  It this going to get worse and worse?  I really don't care as he has such a lovely character and is settling in so well.   :D We went to so much trouble to try and get a well bred dog, as our last cocker had so many health problems and died young.  The breeder says that you can't tell if they have an undershot jaw until their adult teeth come through, but it does seem to be getting worse.  Does any one else have experience of this.  My friends think we should make a fuss because we paid alot  I don't care about the money.  I just want to make sure it won't cause him any problems, or signal that there are more to come.  We went through so much with our last cocker, and I love this one so much too now.

Offline sarah25

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2008, 08:46:45 PM »
Could be wrong but i dont think this will be a problem,you wouldnt beable to show him.
This isnt really the breeders fault some times these things only show up as they grow.

Dont know who bred your little boy but he looks like a lovely little fellow  :luv: So cute.

Offline cazza

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2008, 09:04:28 PM »
Fern has a slight jaw problem too  :shades: altho the vet can't confirm whether this was because of her accident - I love the little  >:D to bits anyhow even tho she has got a second teenage stage at the moment  >:( (selective deafness unless there is cheese or livercake involved  :005: )

Fern fell up a step at 9 weeks old and broke her jaw - for those that don't know about her accident  ;)

Offline SarahS

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2008, 09:16:57 PM »
Fern has a slight jaw problem too  :shades: altho the vet can't confirm whether this was because of her accident - I love the little  >:D to bits anyhow even tho she has got a second teenage stage at the moment  >:( (selective deafness unless there is cheese or livercake involved  :005: )

Fern fell up a step at 9 weeks old and broke her jaw - for those that don't know about her accident  ;)

Thanks for all the nice messages.  We had such a trying time with the breeder I suppose I want to blame them for something ;)  Naughty.  He is beautiful, I love how he is colouring up.  As long as it doesn't cause him any health issues we don't mind, it gives him a unique look.  His colouring is like his dad, who is stunning. We were a bit shocked by the line breeding though, I don't know anything about that, but I suppose it is natural in the wild. My farmer friend was scathing about it though.  I know what he'll say about the jaw :shades:

Offline KellyS

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 10:18:01 PM »
I don't know the full circumstances but looking at it from a breeder point of view... you have to remember these are animals we are dealing with, and sometimes these sort of things do crop up, it's nature and some things are beyond our control... something which I have had to get my head around! The most reputable health conscience breeders in the world still get problems crop up from time to time so it may well be his teeth/jaws were correct at 8 weeks and have gone on to develop like this.. the jaw bone is the last to grow.

I always make a point of showing new owners their puppies teeth/jaws are correct when they come to collect them and if I ever have one who's teeth aren't ok or anything else for that matter I would advise them accordingly so that they could make an informed choice.

Line breeding is pretty common in dog breeding it concentrates the blood - the good strains/genes but also at times it can concentrate the bad genes for certain characteristics. In-breeding (mating siblings or daughter to father matings) is the no no.

I would just keep an eye on them, if he's eating well and it's not affecting him at all I wouldn't worry and just enjoy him. Remember there could be a lot worse wrong with him than an undershot jaw.
Kelly & the Keladity Klan

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Offline Helen

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 10:25:12 PM »

I would just keep an eye on them, if he's eating well and it's not affecting him at all I wouldn't worry and just enjoy him. Remember there could be a lot worse wrong with him than an undershot jaw.

absolutely  ;)

and he looks an absolutely gorgeous little boy :luv: :luv: :luv:
helen & jarvis x


Offline SarahS

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2008, 11:04:03 PM »

I would just keep an eye on them, if he's eating well and it's not affecting him at all I wouldn't worry and just enjoy him. Remember there could be a lot worse wrong with him than an undershot jaw.

absolutely  ;)

and he looks an absolutely gorgeous little boy :luv: :luv: :luv:

He is rather lovely.  And so naughty. (Just had a look at your website - your dogs are rather stunning).   I think because people know how much we paid, and his jaw is noticeable they make a comment (parents, friends etc).  I just don't know much about line breeding and the vet wasn't too impressed by how close things were. But I just asked because I was intrigued to get another opinion.  We had a bit of an issue about extra costs with the breeder, which dented my trust. But I know they care about their dogs and puppies.  And he is doing so well otherwise.  Thanks for the advice.  Our last cocker was such a poor soul with all his problems, but I know from having horses and dogs that nature is nature.

Offline Jane S

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 12:01:05 AM »
I do think when breeders charge very high prices for puppies and add additional charges on as well that they really do set themselves up for a fall if a pup turns out not to be 100% perfect. That's not to say that the breeders are to blame for the undershot mouth as this sort of fault can occur in any litter anywhere but I can understand why Sarah feels miffed - I would too in her position probably ;) But as others have said, it's not the worst fault in the world and shouldn't cause pup any long term problems but just rules him out for showing/breeding.
Jane

Offline djangonut

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 09:51:00 AM »
I bred a show champion.  She was so beautiful that I repeated the mating and kept the best bitch puppy from the resulting litter.   At eight weeks when I sold the litter all mouths were perfect.  However at six months the mouth of the puppy that I had kept had become undershot with the eruption of the permanent teeth.

I sold her cheaply as a pet and her owner still tells me twenty five years later what a wonderful little dog she was.

I don't think that a breeder can be blamed when the second teeth come in "wrongly" at about five months, unless one of the puppy's parents are undershot.

However I do think that this is an issue that is open for discussion.  There is a huge difference between a dog with a badly undershot jaw, and the case of a dog with level jaws where say a couple of teeth on the bottom jaw protrude forward, so that there is not a perfect scissor bite.

Unfortunately cockers are a popular breed with large classes in the showring.  It is too easy for judges to eliminate dogs for mouth faults because a dog either has a perfect mouth or it has not.  There is no matter of opinion,  like whether a dog is too short or too long,  has well laid shoulders or whether the shoulders are too upright,  or whether a dog has moved correctly or not.  Different judges see construction and movement differently and they judge on matters of degree.  But if a dog doesn't have a scissor bite even if the jaw is correct,  but the teeth are slightly misplaced, then in most cases the dog will be penalised, if not eliminated.

This is most strange because we don't always do this with people.  I find the face of Susan George say, with her less than perfect teeth, enormously more pleasing than those Hollywood starlets with perfect eyes, noses and mouths.  They all look so bland!  A small degree of imperfection gives individuality and seems to enhance the attraction!

John


Offline jools

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2008, 10:04:19 AM »
Oh, he's a cracker. My poppy has an undershot jaw too. My vet picked it up at her first check up. It was difficult to see then but very easy to see now.  it has caused her no problems at all....and, actually, I do like the unique  look it gives to her cute wee face.

Oh, y the way.....love his wee hairy feet  :luv:
With love from Julie, Bramble Poppy and Coco xxx

Offline Jane S

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 10:06:17 AM »
However I do think that this is an issue that is open for discussion.  There is a huge difference between a dog with a badly undershot jaw, and the case of a dog with level jaws where say a couple of teeth on the bottom jaw protrude forward, so that there is not a perfect scissor bite.

You might want to start a new thread on the Showing board John if you want to discuss mouth faults generally from a showing point of view. Sarah's pup has a definite undershot jaw so there isn't much room for debate in this particular case but you're right, it's a much greyer area in the case of other mouth faults.
Jane

Offline Ailsa

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 10:19:46 AM »
He is absolutely gorgeous  :luv: - just makes you want to give him cuddles!! I would just put your bad times with the breeder down to experience and just get on with enjoying your beautiful wee dog. I wouldn't worry too much about what other people say either - when it comes down to it he is your dog and it is no ones business but yours how much you paid for him.

Offline ludo

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2008, 12:13:11 AM »
Hi - he looks adorable  :luv: - he is the same colouring as Dax.  We had two Lhasa Apso's before Dax - both boys - my Frode lived until he was 19 - Lhasas have an undershot jaw as standard but Frode's jaw was very pronounced  :'( when his second teeth came through so there was a visible gap and his lower jaw jutted out so you could virtually always see the lower front teeth - but he was a fantastic dog  :angel: :angel: and it never held him back - our second Lhasa lived until he was 16.  We bought him from a reputable breeder down South - we were a bit green in those days and he had an umbilical hernia  :'(- the breeder wasn't interested.  >:( He had an operation to sort the problem out when he was a young puppy and was fine after that.  :angel: I am sure you will have just as many happy years with your lovely dog - he looks great  :luv: :luv: :luv:
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Offline barb

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2008, 06:06:23 AM »
Sarah, he's absolutely gorgeous! His colouring is lovely and I think his expression is cute! :luv:
I'm sure he won't look back, he's got such loving parents!
you're very lucky!
Barb



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Offline MollieMoo

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Re: Undershot jaw
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2008, 07:11:16 AM »

As some of you are probably aware, we paid rather a hefty amount for our little one, but we love him so it doesn't matter.  I was a little peeved when our vet said he had an undershot jaw though.  He does look different in the face from our last cocker, but unique. They are adamant it didn't show at the vet check at 8 weeks, but our vet picked it up at the 2nd jab.  His blood line shows that his paternal grandfather is also his maternal father  (or something like that)  Apparently this is line breeding, but I do wonder if it is the cause?  It this going to get worse and worse?  I really don't care as he has such a lovely character and is settling in so well.   :D We went to so much trouble to try and get a well bred dog, as our last cocker had so many health problems and died young.  The breeder says that you can't tell if they have an undershot jaw until their adult teeth come through, but it does seem to be getting worse.  Does any one else have experience of this.  My friends think we should make a fuss because we paid alot  I don't care about the money.  I just want to make sure it won't cause him any problems, or signal that there are more to come.  We went through so much with our last cocker, and I love this one so much too now.

SarahS your story sounds just like my experience when I bought Daisy back in August 2006.  I went to a lot of effort to try and find a well bred dog, after doing my homework we went to see a litter of pups at 3 weeks old and had the pick of three bitches.  We picked Daisy up at 8 weeks of age and she had been vet checked, that was on the Sunday, on the Tuesday I took her to the vets for her first injection and her undershot jaw was picked up by the vet she also has a twisted lower jaw where the growth plates have grown at different rates.  I was so taken aback, as we had paid 'good money' for Daisy and this was so unexpected.  I rang the breeder and she didn't seem too concerned and she was off on holiday to Australia for 3 weeks, so I though she might ring me back on her return to see how Daisy was - she didn't.  The vet told me that an undershot jaw can right itself as the dog grows, but Daisy's jaw didn't.  So when Daisy was around 12 months I wrote to her breeder to express my opinion about their vet check, their follow up of one of their puppies and generally their lack of concern.  It made me feel better and hopefully made them think about the consequences and responsibilities of breeding puppies.

Daisy has had no problems whatsoever from her undershot jaw and more importantly she has such a lovely temperament, we just call her 'Yule Grinner' :005:

Kate, Fudge (Orange Roan 11 years)

Mollie (RIP 19/11/20 aged 15 1/2 years old)
Daisy (RIP 14/02/19)