CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Dan on July 19, 2012, 09:39:50 AM
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Just thought I would share what I have learnt which for me was the most successful way to get Brodie to heel! Being in the shooting and beating side of things I needed a way to make Brodie heel with out running off and getting to excited seeing other dogs etc so I talked to my dad who is a ame keeper about the most successful way he has used to get his dogs into heel! He replied 'shake a set off keys' this shocked me as I didn't think of this but for some reason dogs dot like the shake of keys so when brodie gets in front of me I say Brodie heel if she doesn't listen I shake the keys an she gets straight back into heel and the same for when I don't want her to go off with other dogs I shake the keys and say Brodie heel up and she will stay with me I tried loads of other things but I don't believe in giving treats all the time so needed something that would work and this does 100% but people have there concerns etc! The thing is you don't touch the dog with the keys to keep them in your hands and shake them when they don't listen first time!
Sorry If there is no punctuation etc and I hope you can understand what I have wrote and i hope this works for you if you give it a go! I will appreciate anyone to put there concerns etc on here also as I have a feeling some people whont believe in it for some reason lol!
Thanks
Dan
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I would advise against it having seen the negative results aversive methods had on Archie. There's an excellent post here.
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=47409.msg672869#msg672869
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What just rattling some keys effects te dog?
To be honest I appreciate your help but my dads dogs are some of the best gun dogs I no and I have seen and his advice I trust and will use to help Brodie get to tere standard and so far she is doing realy well on a shoot a dog NEEDS to be obeediant or they could possible get shot etc! At the end I the day she is lived an happy and that's the main thing but when she will be working next year she need to be safe and I'm willing to try anything to do that!
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We taught ours to heel using a bell in the same way as Dan uses the keys as advised by our gundog trainer. As Dan said on a shoot to be able to get a dog to stick to your side if you ask them to is essential.
I am not sure rattling keys or a bell to encourage a dog to walk to heal would be classed as an aversive method
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As Dan said on a shoot to be able to get a dog to stick to your side if you ask them to is essential.
yes it is essential, but you can easily teach your gundog to walk to heel without rattling something to 'get' their attention if they are focused as they should be on you - usually these methods are used because they get quick results. Mine was taught with just voice and whistle and he is very reliable ;)
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I think what you have to think about is why the dog is walking to heel, some folks may not care?
Dogs either do something to avoid punishment or to be rewarded personally i prefer the latter.
The rattling of the keys in this instance sounds like it is either punishing (the dog may not like the sound) or a warning that further punishment is coming and therefore being used as a conditioned punisher. The only problem i have with this is what do you do if the rattle of the keys stops working? What comes next as I can guarantee for some it will.
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Glad you found a trainer Dan, hope you turn up to their lessons unlike you did with me, sounds like he really knows his stuff :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
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Top barks- I you har any problems pm me I ha a very valid reason I couldn't attend you now that no need to shout ya big mouth out on the forum plus I'm training her myself and had advice from someone that's done it before not everything you say is right things work differently for everyone!
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Also it is possible to stop the rattling of the keys once you are confident in your self and your dog that she will listen without Brodie is really good it's the heeling I'm using the keys for!
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IMO, if you can train your dog to walk to heel using positive, reward-based training, why choose to go any other way? Rattling keys is different from something like a shock collar, but I agree with Top Barks; does the key rattling make her walk to heel because she doesn't like it and wants it to stop?
I have no experience of working dogs, so you may choose to ignore the above, but if it is possible to train them without using aversive training (which it must be, as Helen's comment makes clear) then I would choose something positive and reward based every single time.
More 'traditional' (not sure if that's the right word to use) forms of training might work quickly, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily the best.
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Also it is possible to stop the rattling of the keys once you are confident in your self and your dog that she will listen without Brodie is really good it's the heeling I'm using the keys for!
Good for you, you obviously really know what you are doing so maybe you could video your exploits so we can all see. :D
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Top barks- no intact I don't REALLY no what im doing I'm not a dog trainer but I love my dog and don't want to see her hurt on a shot day so I'm trying myself to get et into heel she is still over excited with other dogs which is to be expected I'm jut trying methods I have seen my self work if this doesn't Work eventually I'll keep trying new things till it does I'm not goig to give up on something I'm patonate about!
If its not your cuppa tea dont reply I didn't honestly think you would get people like this!!
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Sorry If there is no punctuation etc and I hope you can understand what I have wrote and i hope this works for you if you give it a go! I will appreciate anyone to put there concerns etc on here also as I have a feeling some people whont believe in it for some reason lol!
Thanks
Dan
Dan,
I don't think anyone is being rude, you asked for people's concerns and opinions and that is what people have provided.
Don't take it as a personal attack, because it isn't. You know what a supportive community this is.
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Top barks- I you har any problems pm me I ha a very valid reason I couldn't attend you now that no need to shout ya big mouth out on the forum plus I'm training her myself and had advice from someone that's done it before not everything you say is right things work differently for everyone!
Yes, I agree pm'ing would be better in this case but there is no need for rude comments either thanks Dan. Please keep your comments civil.
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I'm not jaybee but people go on as if everyone should no what there doing! I'm just trying new ways off possibly training Brodie to the best of my ability! Not everyone is perfect and I don't want people to start thinking I 'punish' my dog or out because I rattle some keys!
There is some really nice and supportive people on here who I have personally talked to for information but there is the odd few that no better!
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Top barks- I you har any problems pm me I ha a very valid reason I couldn't attend you now that no need to shout ya big mouth out on the forum plus I'm training her myself and had advice from someone that's done it before not everything you say is right things work differently for everyone!
Yes, I agree pm'ing would be better in this case but there is no need for rude comments either thanks Dan. Please keep your comments civil.
Sorry Helen it jut annoyed me I had a valid reason I wouldn't like to discuss! Tere was no need I only posted a training suggestion!
Thanks
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So lets get back on topic and tell the forum why you think this method would benefit the members?
have you tried any other techniques? what successes or failures did you have?
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I haven't tried many things if I'm honest! I have Only just recently started to get her into heel as I have waited months as the book I'm reading says wait till she is 6 months i started her on the lead by tugging once and sayin heel not all the time but every now and agajn and I dot always rattle the keys I only rattle them when she gets carried away!
And I didn't say it is guaranteed to work I said it worked 100% for me maybe it is the wrong way to do it but you live and learn!
What would be the way you would train them to heel?
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I haven't tried many things if I'm honest! I have Only just recently started to get her into heel as I have waited months as the book I'm reading says wait till she is 6 months i started her on the lead by tugging once and sayin heel not all the time but every now and agajn and I dot always rattle the keys I only rattle them when she gets carried away!
And I didn't say it is guaranteed to work I said it worked 100% for me maybe it is the wrong way to do it but you live and learn!
What would be the way you would train them to heel?
In a different way to what you are doing that's for sure, but if it works for you best of luck. Hope you get some really good advice :D
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Interestingly one of my dogs will walk to heel if I have a tennis ball in my hand - its far better for a dog to learn out of something positive than fear
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Dan, I have taken the liberty of copying one of 'Karma's ' posts, I hope that she doesn't mind, but it is excellent advice :D
We have recently started using a new method at the puppy classes I help at, which is proving very effective.
Step 1. Have a clicker and a handful of treats.... attach lead to collar - lead should be in a nice "J" shape (so completely loose, hanging down).
Decide which side you want dog to walk on (eventually) - if you want him on your left, hold everything in your right hand (lead over wrist, clicker and handful of treats in hand) - use your left hand to retrieve one treat at a time after clicking.
Have dog infront of you, step backwards - if he chooses to follow, click and treat.... repeat many many times.
Step 2. Once he has the hang of following you, do 2-3 steps backwards (clicking and treating), then turn, so that dog is in a heel position on your left - click and treat. Then return to being infront of dog and repeat this stage many many times.
Step 3. Short walks on lead in a low distraction environment - Literally just about 10 metres at first - and you should be getting at least 10 click/treats into those 10 metres - try not to click/treat absolutely regularly, so allow one slightly longer gap at some point, so dog has to keep concentrating on you. In the initial stages you will be click/treating virtually constantly - don't progress too quickly, as one of the main issues people have with clicker training loose lead walking is that the dog walks nicely, grabs the treat and then pulls ahead - if you are click/treating often enough there shouldn't be time.
Step 4. Gradually build up on this - so slightly longer between rewards in the same environment, introduce more distractions (with a high pace of reward), keep it going for longer.... don't build too quickly - and if you are taking it to a new environment, initially go right back to step one to build those foundations (you shouldn't need to repeat them as often). I think the major reason people struggle with loose lead walking (and I do - we use a T-Touch harness) is that they do the basics, and then jump to wanting perfect walking, missing out the middle steps of strengthening the behaviour.
If at any point the lead pulls tight, just stop and wait for dog to look at you - if he's utterly distracted, make some noise to attract his attention (but don't just keep repeating his name!).
Make sure you give constant feedback - especially when you are fading out the treats - tell him how clever he is constantly.
It's hard work - and can take months to perfect - but it's worth it!!!
While training is in progress, never ever let him pull on her collar and lead - if you are going somewhere and can't keep to the training, use a harness (or drive and let her off-lead immediately). The harness won't necessarily stop him pulling, but it will stop him learning that he can pull on the collar.
Also never pull the dog - the rule is that the lead must be in a "J" shape - it doesn't matter who does the pulling, this still breaks the rule!!!
I wouldn't use a slip lead on a dog who pulled, especially not a young dog, as it can damage delicate neck muscles if it tightens suddenly... I do use a slip lead for convenience for agility etc, where I want to be able to get the lead on and off quickly, but I use a harness for normal walking so that Honey doesn't have to walk to perfect heel throughout and is free to sniff a little on our way to the woods. We also keep up loose lead walking on a collar and lead when training.
Best of luck :D
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That is more like it :D
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Bluebell- thanks will give this ago tonight when I take her see wer I get appreciate it thank you new there were some members that were out to help people :)
Thanks for the comments!
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Bluebell, funny to see the text you copied is the same text I copied into Notepad last night while reading old posts. I am planning to use this method myself beginning in a couple of weeks when our puppy gets home.
Dan, good luck!
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Right took Brodie for a walk I took a handful of dog food as had no treats! Just want to make sure I did it right!
I told her to heel and walked a good while then told her to sit and said good girl them have her the treats is that right? Will it work better in time?
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I told her to heel and walked a good while then told her to sit and said good girl them have her the treats is that right?
Well, no. :huh:
If you're following Karma's training advice that Bluebell posted, you do actually need to start at step 1. You'll not crack loose lead walking overnight. Your pup is still so young... take it slow, have fun with her... it's not a race.
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Ano it's not a race she doesn't pull on the lead that's the thing!
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I meant training isn't a race ;)
I'm confused, then, if she doesn't pull on the lead why you are asking if "it will get better in time?" - will what get better in time? I thought we were talking about not pulling on the lead.
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No off the lead lol sorry should have maybe mentioned that sorry for the confusion
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Just take it slowly Dan ;) Steps 1 & 2 at home and in your garden until she has perfected it ;) Then try out and about, but again only in small doses. Each time you venture further it will be like starting again, but you will by then have solid foundations to work on ;) Be consistent - it is alot of hard work now, but you will reap the rewards of all that effort for the rest of her life :D
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Dan, if she does not pull while on the lead then why not walk her on the lead when you want her beside you. How is her recall, does she come back to you when you call her?
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How old is Brodie Dan? It has taken me until Ruby was 13 months to perfect heel on a lead and to be honest sometimes she gets ahead of herself.. She's a spaniel she'd sooner have her nose to the ground! But when it comes to her gundog training so off lead which I have found slight differences going between obedience and gundog training as they say you can't use treats.. We carry a ball or other item that she likes and although she is not quite velcroed to my leg she isn't running around and off on her own adventure..
Good luck with training Dan it's hard slow work but it seemed to all of a sudden come together for Ruby and she's now a lot better post season!
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Hmm..rattling keys are not for me and my cocker is being trained for the shooting field. Didn't need to use such methods to teach my SWDs (for gundog work) to stick close when asked/required so won't be using them on my cocker either. Working on their focus and general self-control is the way I went. don't have to use food, there are other rewards that you cna use that are just as effective and I'd rather use reward based methods than punishment
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For off-lead heeling we used either targetting (teach dog to target your leg with their shoulder) or treats....
Worked well enough in our obedience classes....
But, to be honest, the loose-lead training Bluebell copied above would also work - as the idea of the training is that the lead never gets taut and the dog learns the position as being the important thing, it can be done without a lead just as easily... ;) (In fact some pups found it easier to learn without the lead first, as they were nervous of the lead!)
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For off-lead heeling we used either targetting (teach dog to target your leg with their shoulder) or treats....
Worked well enough in our obedience classes....
But, to be honest, the loose-lead training Bluebell copied above would also work - as the idea of the training is that the lead never gets taut and the dog learns the position as being the important thing, it can be done without a lead just as easily... ;) (In fact some pups found it easier to learn without the lead first, as they were nervous of the lead!)
I definitely found this the case with my lot :D
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Does anyone have a gundog training book to recommend to Dan? All the different suggestions can be quite confusing and I would hazard a guess that heelwork training for a working gundog differs from that for a pet that you just don't want pulling on the lead? The end result required differs somewhat.
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Dan...as my mother always said...'there is no right or wrong, but there most definitely is OPINION.'
Never a truer word spoken. I believe that you mean well for your dog, and that you would never use cruel techniques....if it works for you and your dog, then it's good.
However, there are people who have expertise in these areas, and they naturally believe in what they are doing too.
Try to take the emotion out of all this, and have a go at what is being suggested.
Xxx
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Dan...as my mother always said...'there is no right or wrong, but there most definitely is OPINION.'
Never a truer word spoken. I believe that you mean well for your dog, and that you would never use cruel techniques....if it works for you and your dog, then it's good.
However, there are people who have expertise in these areas, and they naturally believe in what they are doing too.
Try to take the emotion out of all this, and have a go at what is being suggested.
Xxx
Well said :clapping: :clapping:
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Dan
I'd say do what works for you. If you train that way and get results then carry on! If it doesn't work, start again!!
I went against the grain with my mates sprocker who wouldn't retrieve, it would even pick a dummy or tennis ball up. All the gundog books etc advise against playing tug of war with the dog but this is the only way we could get it to retrieve. It's fine with game in it's mouth.
Your method may not be the best, it may not be everyones way of doing it but if it's how you want to train do it!