Author Topic: need help please-guarding and working  (Read 1460 times)

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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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need help please-guarding and working
« on: February 20, 2009, 01:32:25 PM »
Jack has guarding tendencies with both resources and spaces. It started when he was about 6mths with a bit of tissue and under a table. Its never been a huge problem and is easily managed. It does sometimes take us by surprise as its quite rare it happens and normally over something like a lighter or pair of knickers. To give you an example he wondered into my understairs cupboard a few weeks ago while i was getting something out and lay down on a tool box, I could tell if I asked him to move or come out of the cupboard he was going to start guarding it so I just completly ignored him and walked away, not giving it change to start. He came out a few mins later and I still didnt make a huge fuss of him (just acted normal) and just left the door open all day so he could go in and out as he pleased while i ignored it. That nipped it in the bud with the cupboard and we have found that if we completly ignore any attempts at guarding it stops quickly. So if hes grabbed a pair of knickers I can normally just ask for them but if i think from looking at him its going to be a pair he will guard i just completly ignore him, he will wonder round or sit with them in his mouth for a bit and when he realises im not interested and hes getting no attention he normally just puts them down somewhere. I will leave them for a bit then just pick them up like its no big deal and later on get his clicker out and do some work with him bringing us objects. I dont know if this is the right way to handle it but I have found that when I think hes about to guard if I dont give him chance to do so and dont get into the situation where its a stand off or im going to ask him to do something hes not going to do its the quickest way to stop it.   We have found this is the way that works best for us and we see quick improvements, he only tries to guard every few months usually and it never lasts long.

Jack is brilliant with dummys, comes in and sits at my left hand side then gives me them on command with his head up. Hes fine with rabbit skin dummies ect. Where we walk him he would occasionally find a dead rabbit and bring it to me without a problem until recently. Then a few weeks ago he found a few half eaten dead rabbits (guts, bladder hanging out) brought it to me and when i asked for it he went nuts and began guarding it. He was growling, barking his body was stiff and he had bit down hard on it, Its the only time i have ever felt in danger of getting bitten. im worried about ignoring it and him thinking its ok to eat game plus i dont know the damage eating a dead rabbit would do to him.  :-\
He was still fine with un marked dead rabbits he found but then brought me back a live one. He carried to me fine and when i asked for it he bit down and broke its ribs killing it. I put him on lead and let him carry it home sitting him every so often and just stroking him acting like everything was normal then when i got home i took it off him (he gave it up fine) did some retreives with it which he was great with. All this happened in the space of a week and it turns out the area has mixi so i have stopped walking him there now.
Im worried though his eating half eaten rabbits will make him see rabbits as food and he will start trying to eat any he finds, he found a dead un marked rabbit a few days ago in an area we didnt think there was rabbits  ::) and although he brought it to me he was a little reluctant giving it up (came in and sat with his head down then mouthed it as he was releasing) which he never used to do. So i hid it and gave him a blind retreive with it and he brought it in presented and released it fine  :huh:
He does retrieve cold game (birds) and is brilliant with them. He treats them exactly the same as he does his dummys and comes in to sit at my left side then holds his head up and releases on command.
I have put notices up in local farmers market shops asking for unmarked dead rabbits so i can use them with Jack to practice but have had no joy yet.
I dont know what to do, I dont want guarding behaviours to escalate or him not trusting me. I realise a half eaten dead rabbit must be extreamly high value to him. hes never going to work on rabbits but i dont want him finding the half eaten ones and guarding them or finishing them off, im worried it might be birds he will start eating next and im also concerned about hard mouth developing.
The strange thing is I can give him a chicken wing then ask for it and he will release it on command, i have no problems around food and have accidently given him Bries food before and not hesitated in taking it off him.  :huh:
Im so confused (which is why this is a long rambling post) anyone got any ideas?
We are so close to him being trained and i really dont want him and us to miss out on working because of this problem getting worse. Is this something you think would effect his working or would it be a seperate issue? Is there any reason he would start on birds? and what should i do when he finds half eaten things he starts guarding?
thanks
 

Offline SkyeSue

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Re: need help please-guarding and working
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2009, 03:03:51 PM »
Sorry, Jo, no advice, but it sounds to me like you're doing everything right with regard to guarding.
I shall watch your replies with interest, as Chloe killed a bird recently and was hell-bent on eating it...I had to drag her away and 10 minutes later, she retraced her steps trying to get back to it again. I'm not planning to work Chloe, but killing/eating birds is certainly not something I want her to do.
Good luck, hope someone comes along soon with some advice for you
Sue


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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: need help please-guarding and working
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2009, 03:25:08 PM »
I know what you mean its horrible when your dog kills something.
The mixi rabbit is the first thing Jacks ever killed (there normally dead when he finds them) and it really surprised me. I noticed he didnt bite down and kill it until i asked for it though and think it was more him not wanting to give it up than a deliberate kill  :-\
I have noticed anything freshly dead he doesnt try to eat and am really hoping this rabbit thing wont effect his retreiving birds  :huh:
Still leaves me confused with what to do when hes chomping away on a half eaten rabbit.
TBH if it isnt going to effect his retrieving birds and is no danger to him i will probably just turn a blind eye and ignore it.
Being realistic im not going to find something higher value than rabbit guts and I think the problem is every time he has found a half eaten one hes had it taken off him and not given back so i think its why hes guarding.
When he finds an un marked rabbit or were working with birds he always gets a few difficult blind retreives with them which he loves doing so i dont think he sees a need to guard these.  :-\

Offline Top Barks

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Re: need help please-guarding and working
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 11:17:41 AM »
 This is something i have never had to deal with so a bit of a shot in the dark. ;) I would work on lots of low level swaps, work on a real good drop it or out cue. Use the very best rewards (maybe hot roast chicken)  proof it at low levels before upping the anti and getting to a stage where you swap rabbit for if neccesarry rabbit. if you do lots of it hopefully it will have the effect of lowering the value of the rabbit.
You have to do this under circumstances you control and  do lots of reps and generalise this to outdoor locations which will make this a bit of a training project.
 

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Offline SkyeSue

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Re: need help please-guarding and working
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 04:01:35 PM »
which will make this a bit of a training project.
 

Phew...not arf  :lol2:
Makes a lot of sense to me though  :shades: ;)


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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: need help please-guarding and working
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 06:40:27 PM »
This is something i have never had to deal with so a bit of a shot in the dark. ;) I would work on lots of low level swaps, work on a real good drop it or out cue. Use the very best rewards (maybe hot roast chicken)  proof it at low levels before upping the anti and getting to a stage where you swap rabbit for if neccesarry rabbit. if you do lots of it hopefully it will have the effect of lowering the value of the rabbit.
You have to do this under circumstances you control and  do lots of reps and generalise this to outdoor locations which will make this a bit of a training project.
 
I would rather have a long training project than follow the other advice i was given which was to stand on his paw   :o :o
Something im obviously not going to do for many reasons  ;)

Knowing Jack i *think* i know what to do to solve this but that will invole letting him eat whole dead rabbits, is that safe? I know mixi wont affect him but its alot of bones, skin and organs  :-\