Starting some training!! update!!

[SkyeandOllie]

 little help please guys!! As you may know, we are keen to get Ollie into some sort of gundog training. I know someone who has a cocker bitch and he has given me some dummies covered with rabbit skin and one with pheasent feathers. He was scared of these funny smelling things at first!    Hes always been quite possesive, not agressive at all but if he has his 'prize' he'll duck away from you so you dont get it. Now when we are working on the retrieve, he'll go out, pick it up and trot around being very proud. If I call him and have a treat he will run to me, drop it about 4 ft away, get his treat then trot away again with the dummy in his mouth. how do I get him to bring and hold the dummy and not be so possesive of it?! He is just over 6 months now

[riotous_uk]

I would use 2 plain canvass dummies. throw one and as he comes round, encourage him closer wiht your food. As he drops the dummy, throw the second for him to fetch. Keep a mental note of how close he was to you when he dropped hte first. when he comes back with the second encourage him in again,a nd this time, he has to come an inch closer than before..if he does, throw the second dummy again. Continue over several sessions until he brings it all the way back.

Or attach a long line to the dummy so that he can't wander off with it.

Or do retrives in a narrow chanel (hallways are good) so that he cannot evade you.

[SkyeandOllie]

thanks, so, do you think that the covered ones are too much for him just now? good idea with the longline, I'll try that too.  I'll do some trades with him too, see if I can get him to swap

[Black Red + Yellow]

Alfie was just like this too (and much older).......we changed our approach to his retrieve completely and we still use this now....he doesn't have to give it up straight away, we call him to us and walk a little way while he 'holds'....then we ask him to sit and stroke him calmly telling him he is a good boy, then he is happy to release on a 'dead' command.  At the beginning, he was very happy to go find the dummies but he really wasn't sure whether he should bring it back and give it to us, his body language changed completely and he would go and hide.....as if he thought he was in trouble....so we took the pressure of him to 'reveal' what he done and just called him to heel while we walked off.....worked a treat....he's soooo chuffed with himself these days

[praia]

To discourage premature dropping of the dummy when first training my dog I first taught him the "hold" command, meaning you hold whatever is in your mouth until I tell you to give it up.  When he came back with the retrieve I would walk away, which only encouraged him to follow along at a heel while carrying the dummy.  I'd then ask him to sit and hold while calmly praising him for doing so.  The dummy should only be released to hand on command.  The point of this exercise is for the dog to feel good and confident about the retrieve by allowing him to hold his prize and by not taking the dummy away from him too early.

Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat.  The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.

I'd suggest you start out with smaller and lighter canvas dummies on a young and inexperienced dog before moving onto heaver and more lifelike ones. 

[JohnW]

To discourage premature dropping of the dummy when first training my dog I first taught him the "hold" command, meaning you hold whatever is in your mouth until I tell you to give it up.  When he came back with the retrieve I would walk away, which only encouraged him to follow along at a heel while carrying the dummy.  I'd then ask him to sit and hold while calmly praising him for doing so.  The dummy should only be released to hand on command.  The point of this exercise is for the dog to feel good and confident about the retrieve by allowing him to hold his prize and by not taking the dummy away from him too early.

Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat.  The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.

I'd suggest you start out with smaller and lighter canvas dummies on a young and inexperienced dog before moving onto heaver and more lifelike ones. 

Very well written ..... I was always taught NOT to allow the dog to drop the dummy as it may become a bad habit and not what you want on a shoot. We always use the word DEAD when taking the dummy or game. But that said the training methods used above may well work over time so not personally wanting to critisize any other methods if it works too... but as a gamekeeper once pointed out to me if a bad habit like dropping the game is allowed to continue it may cause problems especially if the game is still alive the last thing you want is a runner .....

[harveyroan]

To discourage premature dropping of the dummy when first training my dog I first taught him the "hold" command, meaning you hold whatever is in your mouth until I tell you to give it up.  When he came back with the retrieve I would walk away, which only encouraged him to follow along at a heel while carrying the dummy.  I'd then ask him to sit and hold while calmly praising him for doing so.  The dummy should only be released to hand on command.  The point of this exercise is for the dog to feel good and confident about the retrieve by allowing him to hold his prize and by not taking the dummy away from him too early.

Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat.  The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.

I'd suggest you start out with smaller and lighter canvas dummies on a young and inexperienced dog before moving onto heaver and more lifelike ones. 

Yes well written I'm having problems of spitting the dummy and that was brought about when treats were first used. At our training class we are always told to NEVER be in a rush to take the dummy. I've made some classic mistakes with my dog thats what happens when he's your first dog and you have family. He retrieves when he knows its a retrieve but spits out, if he finds something though its a different matter.  I've had a one-one with my trainer and he found a prize and wouldn't come to me. He asked does he have things taken off him at home. Well he's a little b*gger at pinching the washing off the radiators I said. What he said made so much sense. I'm now going to teach him the hold to hopfully over come this little problem of spitting.

[Top Barks]

Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat.  The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.

 

I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food

[praia]

Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat.  The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.

 

I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food

In some cases... I agree.  Every dog is different and a handler should use whatever works best for that individual dog.  My spaniel isn't food motivated so I never use treats when training him, but he lives and breathes for the retrieve, which is what I use to my advantage.  If the dog is a natural retriever then treats aren't necessary as the retrieve is his greatest reward.

However, in the case of building a reliable retrieve, MOST people are inclined to use a treat incorrectly by luring the dog to come and inadvertently reinforcing the premature dropping behavior in anticipation of food.  Treats should be used to reinforce the "hold" command by only rewarding once the dog has properly delivered to hand. 

[harveyroan]

Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat.  The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.

 

I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food

In some cases... I agree.  Every dog is different and a handler should use whatever works best for that individual dog.  My spaniel isn't food motivated so I never use treats when training him, but he lives and breathes for the retrieve, which is what I use to my advantage.  If the dog is a natural retriever then treats aren't necessary as the retrieve is his greatest reward.

However, in the case of building a reliable retrieve, MOST people are inclined to use a treat incorrectly by luring the dog to come and inadvertently reinforcing the premature dropping behavior in anticipation of food.  Treats should be used to reinforce the "hold" command by only rewarding once the dog has properly delivered to hand. 

Yep your right I made the mistake at a early age of using treats and ever since has dropped his retrieve(my mistake )I have read a thread on the gundog forum of training the hold using treats which seems to have good success. I've not used treats for his training for sometime now but I think I might have to go back to them to reinforce some training as I can't use the retrieve as a reward yet.

Treats are a tool that doesn't seem to be used by the experienced gundog trainers unless they have a difficult dog but clicker training seems to talked about more often I see on the other forums.

[Top Barks]

Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat.  The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.

 

I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food

In some cases... I agree.  Every dog is different and a handler should use whatever works best for that individual dog.  My spaniel isn't food motivated so I never use treats when training him, but he lives and breathes for the retrieve, which is what I use to my advantage.  If the dog is a natural retriever then treats aren't necessary as the retrieve is his greatest reward.

However, in the case of building a reliable retrieve, MOST people are inclined to use a treat incorrectly by luring the dog to come and inadvertently reinforcing the premature dropping behavior in anticipation of food.  Treats should be used to reinforce the "hold" command by only rewarding once the dog has properly delivered to hand. 

So you are saying food is OK in the right hands? 
I do totally agree with you Praia, I just think it is a fallacy to say you should NEVER use food as a reward for a retrieve as sometimes the retrieve needs value  to be built in. I work with a lot of dogs who are not natural retrievers who do need external motivation.
I think with any form of training it is the skill and forward thinking of the trainer to prevent problems and time rewards appropriately that makes the difference in achieving a successful outcome.
 Tis rather handy to have a spaniels motivated by both food and retrieves mind you

[Sarah1985]

I tend to avoid offering the food out and use a clicker instead which reduces the tempation to drop the dummy too early but still allows you to tap into that greedy spaniel instinct. 
 

[Top Barks]

I tend to avoid offering the food out and use a clicker instead which reduces the tempation to drop the dummy too early but still allows you to tap into that greedy spaniel instinct. 
 

Totally, the food should not be a bribe!!!

[SkyeandOllie]

well.... now Im confuzzled!! what should I do?! with treats or without?!he quite often drops it as soon as I call him or o the way back.
can someone please talk me through it step by step so I dont confuse him and get it right?!

[riotous_uk]

If he doesn't like giving the dummy up and using food makes him let go, then use it and as he lets go give your elave cue. He will eventually twig what you want him to do, then you cna fade the presence of food so that it is only given as a reward when he has given the dummy up, rather than having to use it to get him to let go (if you see what I mean)