Starting some training!! update!!

[harveyroan]

I really wouldn't bother doing any retrieves using food until you have cracked this. Its what I'm going to try, my dog loves retrieving but nealry always drops his retrieve. I want to use the retrieve as the reward in the end but need to train the spitting out first.

good luck

[praia]

Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat.  The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.

 

I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food

In some cases... I agree.  Every dog is different and a handler should use whatever works best for that individual dog.  My spaniel isn't food motivated so I never use treats when training him, but he lives and breathes for the retrieve, which is what I use to my advantage.  If the dog is a natural retriever then treats aren't necessary as the retrieve is his greatest reward.

However, in the case of building a reliable retrieve, MOST people are inclined to use a treat incorrectly by luring the dog to come and inadvertently reinforcing the premature dropping behavior in anticipation of food.  Treats should be used to reinforce the "hold" command by only rewarding once the dog has properly delivered to hand. 

So you are saying food is OK in the right hands? 
I do totally agree with you Praia, I just think it is a fallacy to say you should NEVER use food as a reward for a retrieve as sometimes the retrieve needs value  to be built in. I work with a lot of dogs who are not natural retrievers who do need external motivation.
I think with any form of training it is the skill and forward thinking of the trainer to prevent problems and time rewards appropriately that makes the difference in achieving a successful outcome.
 Tis rather handy to have a spaniels motivated by both food and retrieves mind you

I'm saying food is OK for the right dog and for the right person who actually knows how to use it correctly.  As you said, timing rewards is what makes the difference in marking behavior, which seems to be the case here as the dog was not being rewarded for the correct behavior: holding versus dropping.  The only reason I recommended against treats in building a dog's retrieve is, because many people end up rewarding and reinforcing the wrong behaviors.  If a dog isn't a natural retriever and needs the extra motivation, use what works.  If you know what you're doing and know how to get the timing right to mark the correct behavior then do whatever works best for you. 

If you have a dog that is motivated by many things then that's great.  It's probably easier just carrying a baggie of food around when training versus me who always has to carry a tennis ball or a dummy.

SkyandOllie, have you ever considered trying back chaining? A retrieve is basically just a chain of behaviors (sit, stay, fetch, sit, hold, give) and instead of starting at the beginning, back chaining is starting at the last sequence.  In this situation the last behavior sequence would be the hold and release command.

Practice the hold command without him actually retrieving anything or walking around.  Just have him sit with something in his mouth for short periods and only after giving him a release command do you treat or praise. Gradually extend the period of time he has to hold, gradually change up the situation so that he's holding while sitting up close/sitting far away/standing/walking to a heel/and eventually chasing after you.   Throwing out the dummy and having him come back to you are going to be the last behaviors in the chain, but the point of back chaining is to gradually link all these behaviors together one after the other so that each behavior  reinforces the last behavior.  There are many videos on youtube that show dogs (most dogs with absolutely no instinctual drive to retrieve) being trained to retrieve through the back chaining.

[Helen]

I used treats to train, and while I'm happy with Jarv's training I regret using treats to teach a retrieve - it took a long time to teach a hold, and I wish I'd started as Praia has suggested    I eventually had to back chain and it took me about 6 months to get the 'hold' solid (where he spat the dummy within 5 minutes with food!)

There are other ways I could have rewarded him apart from food - with him encouragement and praise would have been enough  and the fun of the retrieve would have been an additional reward.

It was inexperience and hindsight is a wonderful thing  

What I would say is don't ram the training down their throats - build up gradually and stop after a few retrieves.  You want them to be really keen to retrieve    And keep the dummies separate from the other toys, never let them 'play' with them - it makes them really valuable and gives them a purpose in your dogs eyes.  As soon as dummy comes out of a cupboard Jarvis practically does cartwheels with excitement  

[Top Barks]

Horses for courses I guess, I have never used food with Alfie never needed to but used food with Bayley and Douglas as I shaped their retrieves with a clicker.
Back chaining is a great way to teach this but with anything the dog has to find the behaviour motivating in the first place so it all depends on whether either the dog is motivated by the retrieve it's self as a lot of spaniels are or whether you need to apply external motivation.
I can see why it is easy to fail with food with this but then that is where the skill in deciding on an appropriate method to suit the dog comes in.
Try teaching a bichon or a beagle without reinforcement, in my experience life gets a little more complicated.

[riotous_uk]

Bichons are easy Mark, try an RBT instead  That dog was nearly the death of me over a retrive...we sweated blood to get it.

One of my spanish needed food as she was so frightened to retrieve, now she is a retrieve junkie. Tank is a retrieve junkie and does tend to find food too motivating but it is useful to get the polish that I needed.

My preference is to always shape a formal retrieve (by clicker or whatever) but I just let a play retrieve happen.

[Top Barks]

Bichons are easy Mark, try an RBT instead  That dog was nearly the death of me over a retrive...we sweated blood to get it.

One of my spanish needed food as she was so frightened to retrieve, now she is a retrieve junkie. Tank is a retrieve junkie and does tend to find food too motivating but it is useful to get the polish that I needed.

My preference is to always shape a formal retrieve (by clicker or whatever) but I just let a play retrieve happen.

In my one experience of a RBT Pauline, I'd have to say I agree with you.

[praia]

Well, being that the dog in question is neither a bichon nor a beagle, but a working Cocker Spaniel, I would think the retrieve and praise would be enough motivation.   In this situation food didn't necessarily set up the dog to fail, but the method in which it was used did.

In back chaining the dog doesn't necessarily have to find the behavior motivating since it falls under Premack's principle.  The dog may not like holding the dummy or giving it up, but he sure does like that treat or that thrown out dummy once he successfully completes the chain of behaviors. 

 

[Top Barks]

Well, being that the dog in question is neither a bichon nor a beagle, but a working Cocker Spaniel, I would think the retrieve and praise would be enough motivation.   In this situation food didn't necessarily set up the dog to fail, but the method in which it was used did.

In back chaining the dog doesn't necessarily have to find the behavior motivating since it falls under Premack's principle.  The dog may not like holding the dummy or giving it up, but he sure does like that treat or that thrown out dummy once he successfully completes the chain of behaviors.  

 

you simply cannot say praise is enough without knowing the dog whether it is a WCS or any other breed,I have three workers and a field spaniel all motivated by different things at different times. Your dog might quite happily work for praise, but others might not!
Even with back chaining the behaviour needs motivation to maintain it! Unless you force what you want in the first place, A lot of trainers still use these methods and even worse use  the cessation of pain to get the dog to hold in the first place, personally I shape the last step of the behaviour chain first and the reward might be whatever motivates the dog (not always food)  but last step of the chain or first the behaviour needs motivation to maintain it and increase the chances of it occurring again, that is where the premack principle comes in.
I'm not sure if you have ever worked with another breed or indeed many other breeds Praia but my reference to the other breeds is that doing so increases your need to come up with many ways of teaching the same behaviour.
I did say it was horses for courses in my last post.
PS I thank you for your explanation regarding back chaining and the premack principle.

[praia]

Well, being that the dog in question is neither a bichon nor a beagle, but a working Cocker Spaniel, I would think the retrieve and praise would be enough motivation.   In this situation food didn't necessarily set up the dog to fail, but the method in which it was used did.

In back chaining the dog doesn't necessarily have to find the behavior motivating since it falls under Premack's principle.  The dog may not like holding the dummy or giving it up, but he sure does like that treat or that thrown out dummy once he successfully completes the chain of behaviors.  

 

you simply cannot say praise is enough without knowing the dog whether it is a WCS or any other breed,I have three workers and a field spaniel all motivated by different things at different times. Your dog might quite happily work for praise, but others might not!
Even with back chaining the behaviour needs motivation to maintain it! Unless you force what you want in the first place, A lot of trainers still use these methods and even worse use  the cessation of pain to get the dog to hold in the first place, personally I shape the last step of the behaviour chain first and the reward might be whatever motivates the dog (not always food)  but last step of the chain or first the behaviour needs motivation to maintain it and increase the chances of it occurring again, that is where the premack principle comes in.
I'm not sure if you have ever worked with another breed or indeed many other breeds Praia but my reference to the other breeds is that doing so increases your need to come up with many ways of teaching the same behaviour.
I did say it was horses for courses in my last post.
PS I thank you for your explanation regarding back chaining and the premack principle.

Of course you need motivation, which should be the treat/retrieve/praise to be received at the completion of the behavior chain.  I'm only talking about back chaining a hold and retrieve through the use of positive reinforcement not negative reinforcement such as seen in the force fetch method.  Honestly, if you have to use such harsh methods to get a gun dog to take something into his mouth, something it should be doing naturally, then it's probably going to end up a crap gun dog anyway or at least an obedient, but extremely unhappy one out on the field.

I also own a Jack Russell Terrier, and given his temperament and value system, he does require different motivational techniques versus my spaniel.  Food and play are his main motivations in life and I did use back chaining with food as a reward in teaching him a proper hold and release command.  He's a crap earth dog (can't dig to save his life), but he is a keen retriever so he does a bit of gun dog training with my spaniel just for the fun of it.  So wholeheartedly agreed - horses for courses.

[SkyeandOllie]

A little update..........

Yesterday we did some training with the dummies, no treats this time! His wait is great, he'll wait until I send him out, I recall him with the whistle, while he comes back to me he does prance round with the dummy in his mouth showing me it! not quite coming to me!  I did try recalling with a treat but this just made him drop the dummy.  He does eventually come to me, very happy with himself and when I ask him to 'dead' he does drop it.  I dont want to devalue the whistle by using it lots when he just walks round me (normal recall is great, straight back and a nice sit) so I also call in an excited voice, crouch down etc with my arms open. Is this the right thing to do though?! using 2 methods of recall i mean?

I think we're making progress! but, Im going to attach a long line to the dummy, dont want him to think me pulling the dummy is a game of chase, so, should i just let it trail, then when he gets near get hold of the longline and gently bring him in? (also using the whistle)

thanks for all the tips so far!

Going to add a few pics later if anyone wants to see the wee guy and his dummy!

[hanandhen]

He sounds quite like norty little Henry was back in the day

I used to attach a line to the dummy too but only in case he dropped it into somewhere I couldn't reach it from. I'd be worried that if you pulled the line he might instinctively grip it harder and even tug, possibly giving him a hard mouth. I would certainly go with crouch down, squeaking at him and so on, so he is really happy to come to you. Then when he's with you, don;t worry about getting him to sit, just make a big fuss of him, rub his chest etc while he is holding the dummy to make this pleasant, then gently take it.

Now, to get Henry retrieving to hand I used the clicker - basically I only clicked at the moment the dummy hit my hand - even if I had to stick my hand right under his mouth to do so! He twigged that this was the way forwards, and then I could gradually extend the length of the hold by hiding my hands behind my back so he had to hold it to get the click. I would give a 'hold' command while doing this so he learnt that too. Then, when he had both these behaviours nailed, I started getting him to sit and deliver. It was a bit long-winded, but it did work - and no dummy spitting because he was working for the click, not directly for the treat.

Hope this helps! He sounds a character, and those are the best dogs to have if you ask me

[praia]

There's nothing wrong with crouching down and calling the dog back to you, though my own dog responded far faster as a pup when I simply walked away from him as it fed his natural urge to chase after me.  There's also nothing wrong with having two methods of recall.  My own spaniel responds to the whistle, voice commands, and hand signals.  The more the better, I think. 

I'd attach the check cord to the dog, not to the dummy as this sounds like a recall problem.  Let the cord drag and if he runs off tug the cord in a tapping motion to gently direct him back to you.  You're not pulling the dog, you're just giving directional cues. I've never heard of anyone attaching a line to a dummy. I would think the tension a dog feels from the cord attached to the dummy would only further add to his problem of prematurely dropping the dummy.

Again, regarding the premature dropping of the dummy, it sounds as if you're luring the dog with the treat to come back, not rewarding the dog with a treat for coming back and delivering the dummy to hand.  Using treats shouldn't be about luring and bribing, but rewarding to reinforce the behaviors you want.

[Sarah1985]

Now, to get Henry retrieving to hand I used the clicker - basically I only clicked at the moment the dummy hit my hand - even if I had to stick my hand right under his mouth to do so! He twigged that this was the way forwards, and then I could gradually extend the length of the hold by hiding my hands behind my back so he had to hold it to get the click. I would give a 'hold' command while doing this so he learnt that too. Then, when he had both these behaviours nailed, I started getting him to sit and deliver. It was a bit long-winded, but it did work - and no dummy spitting because he was working for the click, not directly for the treat.
 

Ive had my two retrieving to hand for a while but only if my hand is outstretched. If i put my hand behind my back Dexter in particular just drops it rather than holding it and waiting for my hand (i admit in my own fault as I let him get away with this as a pup).

In an attempt to make it easier for him, Ive been holding my hand out to one side so that he has to find my hand with the intention that this would help him realise he needs to ensure he delivers the dummy to my hand. Then when my hand is hidden Id hope he realise that a retrieve that isnt to my hand is a failed retreive and hold it....

Anyone have any suggestions on whether there is a better way of going about it? I think Im going to have a go with the clicker so I can pin point the delivery to my hand. Will this be enough for a dog who started off thinking it was ok to drop it at our feet?

[riotous_uk]

I'd attach the check cord to the dog, not to the dummy as this sounds like a recall problem.  Let the cord drag and if he runs off tug the cord in a tapping motion to gently direct him back to you.  You're not pulling the dog, you're just giving directional cues. I've never heard of anyone attaching a line to a dummy. I would think the tension a dog feels from the cord attached to the dummy would only further add to his problem of prematurely dropping the dummy.

Well you have now! Somethign I had to do with one of mine as he soon learnt that he was on a line and was perfect, but a git off it. A line on the dummy stopped him legging it and no it didn't make him drop it or grip it any harder either.

[praia]

I'd attach the check cord to the dog, not to the dummy as this sounds like a recall problem.  Let the cord drag and if he runs off tug the cord in a tapping motion to gently direct him back to you.  You're not pulling the dog, you're just giving directional cues. I've never heard of anyone attaching a line to a dummy. I would think the tension a dog feels from the cord attached to the dummy would only further add to his problem of prematurely dropping the dummy.

Well you have now! Somethign I had to do with one of mine as he soon learnt that he was on a line and was perfect, but a git off it. A line on the dummy stopped him legging it and no it didn't make him drop it or grip it any harder either.

Interesting.  Well, whatever works... But wouldn't it have worked the same way if you had attached the line to the dog?  What made you decide to attach the line to the dummy vs the dog?  I'm just asking out of curiosity since I've never before heard of someone doing this.   

I know if I had done so with my own spaniel he would have dropped the dummy instantly the second he felt any tension during the initial stages of his retriever training.  As a pup, even a slight brush of hand against the dummy would make him release it.  It wouldn't be an issue now though as his "hold" is so good that he won't let go of something even if you're knocking it about.  My JRT, on the other hand, probably would have thought a line attached to a dummy was a signal to a game of chew and tug.  It's already been hard enough training my terrier to have a soft mouth when it's in his nature to worry and destroy everything.