CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: Oscardog on March 10, 2007, 11:14:18 AM
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>:( Oscar is 8 months old now and I've just started Grade one Beginner/Retriever gun dog training. I don't intend to work Oscar but I do want to get the most out of him - keep him active, stimulated and have lots of fun with him.
Having already done basic puppy training with him, this new course is quite different in its approach. I've been told I don't sound angry enough when Oscar doesn't obey immediately. I've tried anger in my voice - seems like shouting to me - and all it does is wind him up and get him darting all over the place. Oscar is VERY lively and I think even the trainer was taken aback at how lively he is. Oscar does great sits and will stay put when I walk out the room if I ask him, but I don't stand a cat's chance in **** when we are out with other dogs around! All he wants to do is play!
How do I focus my dog without shouting? Is this the only option? Any ideas?
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I think he's too young to start this kind of training.
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he is right at the start of adolescence so i agree with penel on the age thing.
i also think there are other ways to teach gundog obedience ....check out a book called Clicker Gundog training by Helen Phillips ;)
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Most gundog trainers will not contemplate training until he is at least 1 year old if not 18 months.
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Reprimanding a dog without shouting requires manipulating your tone of voice. It often involves lowering the voice so that you sound somewhat ‘growly’ A lower tone is something that many headstrong dogs respond well to, and you can be very quiet whilst doing it.
Years ago, many gundog trainers did not start training until over a year because methods were harsh and involved a lot of physical correction. Nowadays with gentler methods, you can certainly start at six months. Eight months is definitely not too young, some spaniels will be running in working tests soon after their first birthday. And depending on the time of year at which they were born, some spaniels are shot over by 12 to 15 months old.
The trick with training a lively squirmy cocker is to praise very calmly as they so excited when you lift your voice or give physical affection. Use a low firm tone of voice to express disapproval, and save the excited praise and cuddles for the end of the session
I don't stand a cat's chance in **** when we are out with other dogs around! All he wants to do is play!
This is quite common in a new 'class' environment. Its all a big novelty at the moment. He will probably settle down after a session or two
i also think there are other ways to teach gundog obedience
Clicker training is a good method, especially with basics, if you can find a course near to you. But they are sadly few and far between. Even with clicker training, the dogs take a while to settle in a class situation
Hope that helps
Pippa
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Many thanks for the replies - Pippa, yours were very reassuring and extremely helpful.
Having done another training session this week I appreciate that tone of voice, rather than shouting, is what is required of us.
I was interested that some of you feel 8 months is too young. Do you think it is too young for any kind of training?
What I didn't say was that the course I'm doing is specifically for dogs aged between 6 and 9 months. ('Gun dog' training perhaps sounds very ambitious at this age but the aim of this particular course is, I think, fairly basic, mainly: to sit, to stay until released (and at the moment we are talking seconds, here) and to recall - in my direction would be nice.)
My priority is to get my dog's attention in the first place, in order to give any kind of command - hence my original question.
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Many thanks for the replies - Pippa, yours were very reassuring and extremely helpful.
Having done another training session this week I appreciate that tone of voice, rather than shouting, is what is required of us.
I was interested that some of you feel 8 months is too young. Do you think it is too young for any kind of training?
What I didn't say was that the course I'm doing is specifically for dogs aged between 6 and 9 months. ('Gun dog' training perhaps sounds very ambitious at this age but the aim of this particular course is, I think, fairly basic, mainly: to sit, to stay until released (and at the moment we are talking seconds, here) and to recall - in my direction would be nice.)
My priority is to get my dog's attention in the first place, in order to give any kind of command - hence my original question.
8 months was just prime adolescence and in our case new training was a bit hit and miss. we reinforced all the things we'd learnt (whistle commands, sit, stay, sit/stay at a distance, walking to heel offlead etc) during the period 6 months to 1 year - some days were good, some days we had that whistle only humans...and certainly not dogs...could hear. at around 11-12 months we noticed a shift in attention and then started re-training as jarv's responses to recall and whistle commands were much more reliable.
it's not that your dog is too young for this kind of training, not at all, i just found that it was an intensely frustrating period - jarv's hormones were all over the place and he was more confident...and therefore cheekier...and he discovered birds (pheasants AND girly dogs....). now at 20 months i am confident that any new training i do with him will stick.
i say keep on with your basics as you're doing - you'll have good and bad days!!!.... but for anything formal, leave it a couple of months until the 'kevin' stage leaves the house ;)
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Basic training can be done at any age - last week I trained a 6 week old puppy to stand with his front paws on a block, and stay :D sometimes it's easier when they are younger though !!!
Personally I don't really like any "negative" training unless really absolutely necessary. IMO if you use growly voices, your dog will associate you with not so happy things, whereas I prefer my dogs to only associate me with happy things. That way they're more likely to come back when you call them, in your happy smiley voice.
I don't know what the gundog trainer is like that's training you - I hope they are making it great fun for you and your dog. (Any pulling, jerking, shouting, smacking and I wouldn't go to the class.)
To get your dog's attention, I would use a happy high squealy voice, and / or tasty food. Certainly for a stay, you will have to use a calm voice, and praise in a calm voice too. For recall you need to use the happy squealy voice again, crouch down on the ground, with your arms open and a big smile on your face :D
Positive reward based training gives amazing results long term - and I mean years ahead. What you teach them now, stays with them for life, so do your best to make it an enjoyable positive experience. :D
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Personally I don't really like any "negative" training unless really absolutely necessary
I totally agree. Aversive free training ( no corrections or aversives whatsoever ) also known as ‘positive only’ training, is the ideal, and for some dogs, in some situations, a very high standard can be reached with these methods. Aversive free training always involves tight control of rewards, as these are the currency with which you train. Where gundog training, or in fact exercising your keen hunting gundog in the countryside is concerned, maintaining control of rewards becomes more problematical. This is because much of a gundog's natural behaviour when allowed to run free, is intrinsically more rewarding than anything you are able to offer him. This is not an insoluble problem for the 'positive only' trainer, but is a problem.
Whether or not a gundog owner actually intends to work their dog in the shooting field, gundog training is designed with that purpose in mind. Working a dog in the shooting field amongst guns and sometimes near roads or railway lines, is a big responsibility and is also a health and safety issue. Obedience is not optional.
For the their own safety, and for the safety of those around them, working gundogs must have a focus on and respect for their handlers to a degree simply not required for pet dogs or in ring based sports like obedience and agility. In the obedience ring, for example if a dog disobeys it might be embarrassing for the handler and give the audience a laugh, but it will not endanger the dog’s life.
Positive reward based training gives amazing results long term - and I mean years ahead. What you teach them now, stays with them for life, so do your best to make it an enjoyable positive experience.
Very true. Gaining this degree of obedience should be a gradual and positive process and experienced trainers begin by encouraging the dog into the right behaviours from the very start, setting the dog up to win, and avoiding influences which may cause the dog to go astray and indulge in unwanted behaviours. In other words they 'control the rewards' and create good habits from the word go.
Family pets have often grown up without these ‘channelling influences’ and may have got into some bad habits. (not coming instantly when called, chasing things etc) In addition, many pets have been through puppy or basic obedience classes and learnt an array of basic skills (sit, stay etc) in a very specific environment such as ‘the village hall’. Often however, to their dismay, their owners find that these skills completely fall apart in the distractions of the countryside or the local park where wildlife or other dogs abound.
This is not because their dogs are disobedient but simply because dogs are very poor at generalising skills to different locations or situations and do not understand that the same commands apply there. Gundog training teaches a dog to ‘generalise’ commands, and to obey them in many of the situations you are likely to come across in the countryside, and in the presence of other dogs, and in that sense alone is useful. It effectively takes the dog’s obedience skills to the next level.
This part of the training process - in which a dog learns to obey basic commands even when distracted, is called proofing, and is the longest and most commonly neglected or rushed part of any training process. When obedience is proofed in this way the benefits to your dog are many as you will enjoy his company so much more and be able to involve him in your life in more ways than before.
In an ideal world, proofing to a high standard would be easily available to all dog trainers with no aversives whatsoever. Clicker training, which I use and enjoy, has been mentioned and is a very effective way of introducing the basics to working gundogs. It takes a degree of skill and a dog with relatively calm temperament to progress to high levels with these methods, and avoiding all forms of ‘correction’. This is reflected in the fact that there have not yet been any Field Trial Champions made up by trainers using positive only (no aversives at all) training methods. Part of the reason for this is that ‘proofing’ with clicker methods is time consuming and involves ‘engineering’ gradually ‘stepped up’ distractions in a logical and progressive manner.
Proofing with more traditional methods can progress quicker because occasional corrections give feedback to the dog as to where it is going wrong, this reduces the negative influence of any mistakes you inevitably make, and allows you to skip some of the tiny gradual steps needed in the clicker training proofing process. When you are working with rewards alone and no aversives, you need to keep control of environmental factors to ensure that the dog is not rewarded accidentally for the wrong response. The more factors you bring into the equation - such as other dogs or wildlife - the harder it is to maintain this control and to ensure success without the feedback of corrections. Gundog trainers nearly all therefore use a limited amount of aversives or corrections.
Once it is accepted that corrections are a part of the training programme, then a decision needs to be made as to how to correct. In times gone by corrections were very harsh, but this is happily no longer considered acceptable today. The appropriate level of correction will always be dependent on the temperament of the dog, but must by definition be firm enough for the dog to register your disapproval.
Spaniels, especially cockers are often extremely ebullient and confident. A handler with a young spaniel who has not previously experience much in the way of disciplined training may need to be firmer than they are accustomed to in order to communicate their feelings to their dog. This does not mean frightening the dog or inflicting pain on him. For many dogs a firm, deep, growling noise of disapproval ‘arrggh, aargh’ is enough to stop the tail wagging, long enough to make him discover that his owner actually exists and would quite like to work with him.
Fashions in dog training just as in everything else, come and go. The pendulum swings first one way and then the other, and hopefully finds a happy medium somewhere along the way. Dog training methods generally have changed for the better over the years. People are kinder and more patient and have a better understanding of how dogs learn and communicate. This is true of the gundog training community as well as the pet dog world. However, whatever training method is used, it is important that it actually works for you and your dog.
Most people agree that all dogs should be well behaved. Many people feel let down by their training classes, which though very kindly led, often do not help them learn to control their dog outdoors. To be realistic, for most people a degree of firmness is almost always necessary to create a meaningful relationship with your dog and one in which the dog is well behaved both in private and in public.
Gundog training is a discipline. It has structure and purpose. Personally I believe it opens up a wonderful world of pleasure and fulfilment, brings out the best in any gundog and enhances his life beyond measure. If the price to pay is an occasional growly voice - well I think your dog will thank you for it.
Pippa
Oops - rather long I'm afraid :o
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IMO if you use growly voices, your dog will associate you with not so happy things, whereas I prefer my dogs to only associate me with happy things. That way they're more likely to come back when you call them, in your happy smiley voice.
Controlling the effects of any punishment whether mild or harsh is a matter of timing. A punishment by definition is something which decreases the likelihood of the behaviour preceding it from recurring in the future. A reinforcement (reward) increases the likelihood of the that behaviour recurring in the future. Punishment in this exact sense is anything the dog finds aversive.
A growly voice will of course put your dog off coming to you if you use it innappropriately when he has obeyed the recall. Provided you always use your smiley voice and reward the recall, using a growly voice as a reprimand when he is misbehaviing and ignoring the recall will not detract from the power of your recall command in any way whatsoever. Quite the reverse. It will in fact improve your recall.
One of the skills many good trainers find very useful is the ability to be a bit of a 'Jekyll and Hyde'. For example - Your dog is running towards you and you call out 'good boy' in a high pitched voice as he is running (this reinforces his keeness to run to you) - he is distracted by a squirrel and about to veer away from you and chase it, so you switch to your growly voice 'no - aaargh, here' (this is strictly speaking a punishment ) as he turns back towards you, you should then immediately switch back to Mr Nice Guy 'good boy' again to encourage him right in to you. It is easy to miss the moment when everything is happening quickly, but it can be done.
These kind of skills come naturally to some, others have to work on them, part of it is anticipating what your dog is about to do next and reacting appropriately, but we can all do it with practice. Even many top clicker trainers will use a verbal 'punisher' in this way. They call it a 'no reward marker'. Basically it lets the dog know that he has made a mistake and that if he continues in this way he can expect a distinct lack of reward. This is valuable feedback - trying to train without it can be done, but it is a bit like trying to train with one arm tied behind your back
Pippa
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They call it a 'no reward marker'
yes but saying "wrong" in a flat tone of voice, isn't the same as an aversive is it !!! it's just telling the dog that it hasn't quite got it yet....
I agree with most of what you've posted, but would point out, as you have, that it takes a degree of skill to control a dog with voice, most people's timing is not great, and they end up rewarding the wrong behaviour !
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So no-one else kicks them then? :D
Only joking, of course.
I felt like a real bully shouting harshly at him to come back when he used to run off (the excited, high pitched stuff had no effect). Fortunately, he generally responds to the whistle now
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I felt like a real bully shouting harshly at him to come back when he used to run off (the excited, high pitched stuff had no effect).
so tell me, why would a dog willingly come back to you if you are shouting harshly at him...
would you go to someone who was yelling angrily at you? :shades:
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Yes, I understand that - that made it all the worse, but he would just ignore the happy friendly voices. Fortunately, we don't need to do that anymore...
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Yes, I understand that - that made it all the worse, but he would just ignore the happy friendly voices.
Molo ignored all my attempts at recall when he was younger; even though I looked and sounded like a Punch and Judy show at times ::)
Long line training was the solution I used..........it took a while, but worked a treat ;)
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Yes, I understand that - that made it all the worse, but he would just ignore the happy friendly voices. Fortunately, we don't need to do that anymore...
glad that your whistle is working for you, a whistle has less 'tones' so a dog is more likely to respond to that ;)
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Just read all this. Hats off to you Pippa what a tremendous translation you have, wish I had this skill. :blink:
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Have been off-line for quite some time - so great to have these responses. Thanks especially to Pippa for such an informative reply. It really helped me.
Oscar's 11 months old now and this makes the world of difference. I am trying to perfect a low pitched voice; which sounds disapproving, but is no where near a shout! He seems to respond really well to that. I tried raising my voice but it got me no where!
His age also makes a difference now - he's just so ready to please, training is coming on rapidly. I still have difficulty getting to him to come to me in a straight line with a dummy or ball, but without such a toy in his mouth, he is brilliant. The books say train for short periods every day - so I've tried and it's beginning to pay off. I have such fun with him now!
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I have only just seen this and do find it interesting.
For me again you have to do what works with your dog and I do use a gravelly tone of voice to let Bayley know he's out far enough away ( to me it is a non reward marker not punishment). The key is the same as when you interupt any unwanted behaviour in that you have to be able to redirect onto something else more positive and I believe you have to have a conditioned recall in place that you can reward.
As soon as he turns towards me out goes the gravel and the squeaky luvvy tone to my voice kicks in to guide him to his reward.
This technique does not work with Douglas however as he gets stressed very visibly by the gravely voice when I have tried this so we abandoned this for him and just use our whistle recall which works fine.
He will not come anywhere near me until I use a light tone.
So different techniques work for different dogs.
Mark
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I've read all these posts with great interest becuase at 8 months Izzy is great at her obediance classes although she does seem to have a low boredom level. Generally speaking she's pretty good at recall when I'm going across the fields, however, she can sniff water a mile away and then just goes deaf on me. Last week she took off down a badger track and jumped straight into the river which is both deep and quite fast flowing. I had to drag my other old dog down to the river, tie her to a tree and jump in the river myself to get Izzy out. When I first got to the river bank I didn't see her and wasn't sure if she had actually gone in or had been swept down stream. Then I saw her clinging to the edge of the river bank below me. Problem was I got Izzy out and onto the bank, but could hardly get out of the river myself the bank was so high. I looked a right royal mess walking home.
I had hoped it had given her a fright but she seems totally uneffected. She is now on a retractable lead for her own safety and my nerves. I hate those leads though and don't want her to be on one for ever but don't know how to get her to listen to me when that kind of situation arises. Nor do I want her to drown.
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Gosh, haven't been online for over year, where does the time go.
I have read this post with interest and Pippa's response is superb.
As a dog owner, you need to find what works best for you and your dog. Each dog has it's own temperament and you need to work within that, however, Pippa is absolutely correct in her advice that you need to have control of your dog, as situations escalate so quickly.
One of the first commands new puppy or dog owners should work on is "attention" and you can achieve this very quickly with the use of clicker training. If you can get and hold your dogs attention, you have the basis of steadiness and can then direct them to what you want them to do.
If your dog is doing something you don't like, train him to do something else instead, then the old behaviour normally fades out after time.
One thing to remember, the type of steadiness and control that Pippa describes takes a lot of time, patience and consistancy and is not always what some owners want to do. So do the best you can within your limits, but know that if your dog is mis-behaving, it is normally because he is allowed to!! :005:
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Oscar's 11 months old now and this makes the world of difference. I am trying to perfect a low pitched voice; which sounds disapproving, but is no where near a shout! He seems to respond really well to that. I tried raising my voice but it got me no where!
His age also makes a difference now - he's just so ready to please, training is coming on rapidly. I still have difficulty getting to him to come to me in a straight line with a dummy or ball, but without such a toy in his mouth, he is brilliant
Hi there
How lovely to hear you have made such good progress over the last few months. Well done to you and Oscar. Training takes effort and persistence and is likely to owe far more to your input than to his age. There are plenty of cockers which are totally wild and out of control at 11 months - the idea of there being a 'kevin' stage - popular on pet dog sites, is not usually heard of or referred to in working dog circles where training is a priority. IMHO Oscar's good behaviour is down to you.
Many thanks for the nice comments.
Pippa
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- the idea of there being a 'kevin' stage - popular on pet dog sites, is not usually heard of or referred to in working dog circles where training is a priority.
That is interesting to read, Pippa ;) As a pet owner, I definitely found Molo harder to train between the ages of about 8 and 14 months and found the whole experience terribly stressful ph34r
What type of training regime would a working dog of this age be subject to ? :huh:
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I definitely found Molo harder to train between the ages of about 8 and 14 months and found the whole experience terribly stressful
I think that is a shame, I don’t believe training, or any other aspect of raising a healthy dog, should ever be terribly stressful, for dog or owner.
About eight months is the age at which many serious gundog trainers begin to bring on a young spaniel with some fairly intensive training. Often in twice daily sessions. There is no doubt that a young dog is growing in maturity and independence at this age, but if this independence is counterbalanced with increasing partnership between dog and handler, and a development in the dog’s skills and general education, this should not cause any problems.
VWhat type of training regime would a working dog of this age be subject to ?
A working cocker of 8 to 14 months old should be fully occupied with, and thoroughly enjoying, a training programme of basic obedience, accompanied with (controlled) hunting practice and the addition of increasingly challenging retrieving skills. Depending on the time of year the puppy was born, introduction to shot and game may be included towards the end of this time period. I find that of all my gundogs, cockers are often the keenest retrievers, the most attentive learners and the most focused on the handler. They literally soak up training and love it.
Actual training regimes vary from one trainer to the next. General observations can be made on the differences in ‘management’ between gundog trainers and many pet dog owners, but most of these relate to the way in which exercise or ‘free time’ is conducted.
I am very happy to expand on my own system if it interests you.
Or to answer any questions anyone may have on this subject.
Hope that helps
Pippa