Crossing Show Lines with Working..

[Marelly]

Hello,

I'm new to the forum but not to Cockers. I am a registered breeder with the ANKC

I currently own 3 show Cockers of which one has attained her Agility Championship here in Australia. All 3 have been very successful in the agility arena and most recently with Rally O. I don't 'show' my guys, but breed with a purpose for work rather than show. They all have beautiful temp's and live with livestock and children 

Now my question is.. In the UK, is crossing Show with Working lines taboo or is it done ? What are the pitfalls with this ?

Working Cockers here are reasonably new to the country with only a limited gene pool at this stage. If I purchase a working bitch, I would like to cross her with my male show.

What I wish to do is infuse some more drive and ability into my lines, hence why I am looking at a working type. Temperament of course is most important and I would be doing alot of research into this before I make any more decisions. Hence the reason for the post.

If you wish to PM me, please feel free

Thank you in advance

Holly
Marelly Cocker Spaniels, Sydney Australia

[elaine.e]

Hello and welcome to COL

In the UK crossing show and working type Cockers is frowned upon by reputable breeders in the showing world and working world. I used to compete in agility with my show type and used to see quite a few show types and workers competing but as far as I know nobody in the agility world was crossing the two types, although some were looking specifically for small sized workers to be eligible for small height classes. There's no doubt that workers tend to be much speedier in the agility ring than show types, but both types seem to take to agility readily in terms of attitude and trainability.

It sounds like you may not have seen many workers as there are so few in Australia, but after being bred for their working ability for many generations they tend to have a high work drive and lots of speed, but a lot of variety in size, build and confirmation, from pocket rockets to giants, fine boned to lots of bone, good confirmation and soundness to poor confirmation. No disrespect to those with workers, but they are much more varied as a type than show types are.

Most, perhaps all, of the show/worker crosses here in the UK are the result of backyard breeders randomly crossing the two types and selling them as pets. Sadly there are many people who don't want to pay much for a pup and haven't done any research about the breed and who are happy to buy from the litter bred just down the road or advertised online cheaply, no questions asked. There are also breeders happy to pull the wool over buyer's eyes and tell them their puppy is a show type when it's a show/ worker cross.

Because of the differences between the 2 types you could end up with a litter of pups that are all different to each other in size, confirmation, coat and aptitude for working. You could have puppies with a profuse show coat and a high work drive, puppies with very little coat and a laid back attitude or anything in between. You might get a perfect agility dog but equally might not.

If you're planning on getting a worker bitch and competing with her, that will give you time to get used to the differences between the two types and seeing for yourself that crossing the two could be a game of chance.

[Cockertime Blues]

Hi and welcome.  Sorry can't help you but I don't know anything about it.  I just wanted so say:

Most, perhaps all, of the show/worker crosses here in the UK are the result of backyard breeders randomly crossing the two types and selling them as pets.

Not entirely Elaine.  Our Genie is a show/worker cross who was bred by Hearing Dogs.  I've no idea why they chose to do that.  If Nicola comes on here she'd be able to tell us perhaps.  Genie can be as lazy as show types are reputed to be, but that is mixed with a very very high prey drive.  She's a lovely lovely dog, and I love her to bits, but I wouldn't say that she is the best mix to have as a pet.

[Emilyoliver]

Hi and welcome.  Sorry can't help you but I don't know anything about it.  I just wanted so say:

Most, perhaps all, of the show/worker crosses here in the UK are the result of backyard breeders randomly crossing the two types and selling them as pets.

Not entirely Elaine.  Our Genie is a show/worker cross who was bred by Hearing Dogs.  I've no idea why they chose to do that.  If Nicola comes on here she'd be able to tell us perhaps.  Genie can be as lazy as show types are reputed to be, but that is mixed with a very very high prey drive.  She's a lovely lovely dog, and I love her to bits, but I wouldn't say that she is the best mix to have as a pet.

Yes, and they also breed cockerpoos for whatever reasons (like guide dogs breed golden/lab crosses and other crosses. But it's different to the general public crossing breeds and types where little/no thought is given to temperament, conformation or function - it's mostly money driven IMO.

Mixing the two types to try and infuse greater drive into progeny isn't such a bad idea if it's carefully thought out and the pups are bred for a specific purpose and buyers are made aware of potential working type traits. Surely this is better than randomly bred working types churned out for the pet market?

[phoenix]

So with these comments, surely it would be better for the poster to have a separate line of working type cockers,and amaze Australia  with their speed and enthusiasm, sweeping the board in the continent!   
The only way to improve the gene pool would be to import fromNew Zealand and further afield, from good field champion pedigrees. Starting with good clear health tests, and no inbreeding of course!

[Helen]

I agree with Phoenix.

I believe the reason that Hearing dogs cross workers and shows (and also crosses poodles and cockers) to get is that it should dilute the enormous enthusiasm and speed of the working cocker side so you get the best of both strains as they are destined to be service dogs.  Of course not all make the grade (like Genie).

This is a conscious decision and all the dogs they use at stud and for breeding go through an enormous amount of training and testing to ensure they are the right kind of dogs.  It's essential as it costs a fortune to train a service dog so from the outset the 'building blocks' have to be there.

There are nice working cockers in NZ - why not speak to a breeder there and get their opinion? 

[Nicola]

We (Hearing Dogs Breeding Programme, where I work) do cross working and show Cockers, but it's a limited number of very carefully chosen dogs, and for a specific purpose to work as assistance dogs. We are ideally looking for the biddability of the working Cocker (which not all of them have in spades, we choose/breed them carefully) combined with the confidence and lower drive and energy levels of the show Cocker. Often it works, but sometimes it doesn't, but we obviously have a lot of professional trainers here and contingency plans in place for all of the dogs we produce, we are not selling them. We actually use more pure show types though, they generally work pretty well for us. I am very much against working and show Cockers being crossed by people who don't know or don't care what they're doing just to churn out pets, which in the general populace, as Elaine correctly said, is how the vast majority if not all of them originate. To be fair though I'm against any kind of irresponsible breeding regardless of the strain. With the CockerxPoodles we need a small, trainable and low-shedding dog for some of our recipients, but again, we don't breed large numbers of them. We don't breed Labrador/Poodle crosses.

[Marelly]

Thanks for your replies

I am the type of person who breeds only once or twice in a bitches life to get a puppy for myself, then I desex. Majority of my pups do go to pet homes but I have sold to working homes as well.

All health testing is done. It's just that my show lines have been successful but would like to try a working without losing my show lines.

[soultosoul45]

The thing is it's ok if you are told about the puppy your going to buy if it is working and show but I am based in aberdeenshire and I bought a cocker from a guy and his wife in aberdeen scotland now my partner was with me and my two kids I asked him is she a working cocker or a show as I wanted a show he said show I said ok that's good as I want a show not a working now he never knew that until he said show I got her home and she is a very nice dog but mad nuts even as I called the KC people and asked them was her parents show they said no one parent was working the other show so if good breeders are not happy about this then why are the KC people not helping to stamp this out they should not allow it and should put down that you can't KC part working part show and it should be a must to get your dog health tested for their DNA but noooooo so I now have a dog where I might not be able to let her have puppies as if anything comes back that she has got faulty DNA I won't be breeding her then I also found out today that the breeder I got her from can put restrictions on her. Not that he would know this as he was just using his dogs as a money making machine 

[elaine.e]

The thing is it's ok if you are told about the puppy your going to buy if it is working and show but I am based in aberdeenshire and I bought a cocker from a guy and his wife in aberdeen scotland now my partner was with me and my two kids I asked him is she a working cocker or a show as I wanted a show he said show I said ok that's good as I want a show not a working now he never knew that until he said show I got her home and she is a very nice dog but mad nuts even as I called the KC people and asked them was her parents show they said no one parent was working the other show so if good breeders are not happy about this then why are the KC people not helping to stamp this out they should not allow it and should put down that you can't KC part working part show and it should be a must to get your dog health tested for their DNA but noooooo so I now have a dog where I might not be able to let her have puppies as if anything comes back that she has got faulty DNA I won't be breeding her then I also found out today that the breeder I got her from can put restrictions on her. Not that he would know this as he was just using his dogs as a money making machine 

Hello and welcome to COL
The Kennel Club can't prevent anyone from breeding, neither can they make health testing mandatory. The best they can do on the health testing front is that breeders who join the KC Assured Breeder's Scheme have to health test. It's one of the requirements for joining the scheme. So one way of ensuring that a puppy has been bred from health tested parents is to use a KC Assured Breeder.
It should also have been possible for you to do some research on your puppy's parents before you bought her. Did you see both parents or did you just see the dam? Even if you only saw the dam you could have asked to see the pedigrees of both parents. In fact a reputable breeder would have had all that sort of information to hand to show prospective puppy buyers, and that would have enabled you to check with the KC before you bought the puppy.
Similarly, a reputable breeder would have only bred from fully health tested dogs and would have had the paperwork to show you to prove that it had been done.
It's definitely a case of buyer beware when buying a puppy, and buyers should do some research on their chosen breed before starting to look for a suitable puppy so that they know what questions to ask of breeders and what proof is required for health testing etc.
It sounds like you may want to breed from your Cocker in the future, but as you already know that she's a worker/show mix and from untested parents, is it something you want to do with this particular bitch? Even if you have her health tested and she's clear you'd still be breeding a mix of show and working, which you've already said shouldn't be done. I'm not trying to be nasty here, just pointing out that you'd be continuing with a type of breeding that you, and all reputable breeders, believe is wrong.
I hope your girl settles down as she matures and turns out to be the lovely family pet that you wanted

[Vixter]

I had a similar thing happen to me.  My girl is lovely, but on her maternal line there are some working cockers.  At the time of buying her I did not realise this, I wanted a show cocker, and was told that was what she was.  I admit I was clearly naive and probably a bit stupid as well but there you go.  My pup is now one and still NUTS!! But I love her to bits and wouldn't change her for the world but it has been a very tough year and a steep learning curve.  In our case it didn't dilute down the drive much, but we did lose some of the working side  Biability and desire to please.

  I mostly feel annoyed at myself for essentially being conned, but it's done now and we have made the best of it.  I love her to bits, and couldn't be without her but would never get another cocker with working lines.

[Vixter]

I should also add that I have had her spayed despite several people trying to persuade me to breed from her, for exactly the reasons Elaine mentioned.  I would not want to breed with her as she is a mix and I'm not sure it always produces the best results for temperament unless done very very carefully.