CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Other Activities => Topic started by: Eceni on May 03, 2008, 11:12:29 PM
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Hello all
I don't have a working cocker yet (I'm a one-dog person, but my lurcher is 14 years old, so beginning to think ahead)
anyways... I am hankering after a working cocker next - I have a friend who breeds them and they're the sanest, most sorted, active little dogs I've ever met. BUT I would like to do agility and have been told that I can't compete with a docked dog.
so would have to choose a pup under 3 days old...
does anyone have any experience of this?
many thanks
eceni
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get a dog from scotland we dont dock them here now. and there are plenty really good working cockers up here! ;) :luv:
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There are plenty of undocked workers. :D Docking has been illegal in the UK for a year now except for dogs than can be proved will be working dogs so you will have no problem finding an undocked pup ;)
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I chose my older boy, Jarvis, at birth, and tbh i found it no different to choosing a pup at 6/8 weeks as it's very difficult to judge character when they are with all their litter mates anyway. :-\ As long as the parents are good natured, and the pups are socialised enough, i wouldn't see there being any problem choosing your pup so young. :D
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you would only worry about it if you were going to qualify for Crufts etc, you can compete at any KC show that does not charge the public to enter. If you think you are going to make it to the top levels and qualify for things like Crufts and Olympia then its something to consider.
Your breeder cannot dock a dog if the reason for the docking is that the dog will be an agility dog, the breeder must legally declare the dog a working gundog and therefore if you are getting an agility dog your breeder would be breaking the law by docking it
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Hiya,
I have two undocked Working Cockers. :D With Roxy, I asked the breeder to leave a pup un-docked for me - in the end she left the whole litter undocked which meant I could choose her when she was old enough to see her personality come out etc (though I had my heart set on her when she was just hours old!)
With Rio, the litter were lined up for Flyball, Agility and Pet homes and so were left un-docked.
I did have to do a bit of research etc to find an un-docked pup, and was well prepared to travel up to Scotland for an un-docked worker pup if it meant doing that - and will do in the future if I need to!! :D
The rules do state that dogs born after April 07 (I think?) that are docked (unless theraputically i.e. after an accident etc), cannot compete at a show where public are paying an entrance fee: i.e. Crufts, Olympia etc. I have competed at both these events with my Cross Breed Penny :D . When I started Agility with Penny it seemed very unlikely that we'd get to that level - but we did, and I really, really hope to get there again with my Working Cockers! (...yes, we have a LOT of training to do!)
Do keep us informed with how you get on!!
- Holly -
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I can't remember if this has been asked before, but can dogs docked after 6th April take part in demonstrations (not competitions) at events where the public pay for entry?
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Thanks, all
I have my heart set on one bred by a friend (in Surrey - not that near Shropshire, but nearer than Scotland) and they're all docked 'cos they're all designed for working homes. I'd probably work mine too - can't see any reason not to - but you're right, if we're not getting to Crufts, then there's no need to worry, and I can't imagine that's likely....
thank you!
e
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I was told no but I haven't been to the KC to ask yet
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Some obedience shows the schedule states that you cant enter a dog docked after 6th April last year regardless of whether it was legally docked or not. I would imagine similar is happening in agility?
I did make some enquiries about working cockers recently. The breeders I made enquiries to do still dock their puppies as they intend for them to be working dogs. However, when I explained to them that I would love to compete the potential puppy, but not in field trials and so would need it to have a full tail most said they would be happy to leave the tail on a puppy for me (if I chose it and put down my deposit very soon after it was born). It might be worth making some enquiries?
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I'll do that... seems a great pity - from a veterinary point of view (I used to be a veterinary surgeon), taking a tail off when it's been damaged is a nightmare and there are some pretty damaged working cockers' tails, but can't be helped...
but this is all hypothetical - I took my 14 year old lurcher up into the hills today and she was bouncing about like a puppy - so nothing new yet, and we might get another couple of years, in which case, there's time for the legislation to sort itself out (and for global warming/peak oil to cut down on activities that use up resources, I suppose, but we can hope there are some left)
thanks, all
e
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I'll do that... seems a great pity - from a veterinary point of view (I used to be a veterinary surgeon), taking a tail off when it's been damaged is a nightmare and there are some pretty damaged working cockers' tails, but can't be helped...
funnily enough, I havent seen many full tailed cockers with any problems working, I have seen Springers, but they have a heavier tail and work differently to cockers, with cockers I dont think a full tail is such an issue.
A breeder docking a tail knowing the dog will be an agility dog rather than a working dog would be illegally docking the dog?
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well yes, but if I want to do both - which I would want to do.... then that's not illegal, I'd have thought? And I'd rather at least have the option of both. I can't guarantee that the dog will a) enjoy and b) be good at, either...
I was looking at a breeder's website yesterday where the bitch who is due to be mated is currently staying 'off site' while her tail heals up from an accident which necessitated its amputation. It does happen - and a goo 3/4 dock doesn't seem to me to do any harm
but plenty of time yet
my friends who breed are coming to visit today (great excitement, they are my favourite people in the entire world) We'll see what they think...
thanks, all
e
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The working cocker breeders I spoke to suggested that if I worked the puppy out on shoots it would be legally docked, and so I should be able to compete it in agaility/obedience/working trials/etc. That is also my understanding of the law.
However, as some societies (that dont charge admission to the public) are stating that dogs docked after 6 April can not be exhibited at their show it makes things a bit awkward?
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I think you might have to make a choice - a legally docked dog cannot participate in shows where the public pays for entry, and other Societies may decide to make rules that mean that legally docked dogs cannot participate in their shows, either...... :-\
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I may be naive - but if the dog is legally docked, what's the legal basis for banning it from shows of any sort, paying or non-paying....
has anyone considered mounting a legal challenge? (I don't have strong feelings about docking, but I do hate the perpetual interference with the small stuff that really doesn't matter, when there's no restriction at all on, for instance, brother-sister matings, father/daughter, mother/son (banned in Sweden, or at least, not registrable) or the almost criminal over-breeding of dogs.)
If the Powers that Be spent less time sweating the small stuff and stood back and looked, they might get a grasp of the larger picture and be able to do something useful.
sigh
e
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I have no issues with the new rules, I work my dogs and compete at agility and will be entering 2 Crufts team qualifiers this year. If I get another young dog and it is docked then I would not be able to go to Crufts, simple as. It is a blanket rule that covers the show dogs and that only affects a small number of agility dogs because not many will end up at Crufts or Olympia that start out training with a novice handler. It affects the gamekeepers ring at Crufts etc which is more relevant because how many serious agility people actually work their dogs properly - very few! Beating once or twice a year doesnt really count as having a "working gundog" which is what the docking laws refer to.
My dogs are rescues and my next dog will be a rescue, if its docked then that just means no Crufts for me (If I ever qualify).
I am not anti docking as I can see boh sides, but when it comes to agility I dont see how anyone can think the rules unfair because you are getting to make an active choice, its not being forced upon you - take a dog with a docked tail and you cant go to the big shows. As I said, very few folk with docked agility dogs actually have serious working gundogs.