CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: Magic Star on May 25, 2007, 01:36:14 PM
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I need some advice ;)
Indie is a show type cocker, shes an incredible busy dog! I would like to start channeling her energies into something more positive, a friend of my hubbies came around today, he has a working cocker and a border terrier who both work. He was saying that Indie would do well flushing woodcock and beating etc, sooo where do I start, is the BIG question! Shes not the most well behaved dog, her recall is ok, unless theres something more interesting about ie, sheep!! :005:
He suggested I get her a dummy and start with that, so what does that entail? Is it just a case of throwing it and teaching her to bring back? Where do I start, as i'm clueless :lol: Also where do I get a dummy?
Thanks :D
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I'm sure you'd have loads of fun training Indie in this way Em :D
If you want to try her with beating on a shoot she will need to be whistle trained for stopping and for recall. I have a 210 for Alfie and a 211 1/2 for Tilly. To go on a shoot they do need to be very well behaved and under control for safety reasons - there are people firing live ammo so you have to be 100% confident that she will do as you ask and stop and come back on command and absolutely not chase any game which is flushed as this would be a disaster. This is why I'm glad there are still a few months to go before the season as Alfie is not quite 100% yet!! Depending on the shoot you go on as well some are more relaxed than others and will be more lenient on young or inexperienced dogs and handlers but a dog that doesn't come back or that chases is dangerous, not to mention disruptive for the shooters. Has she been introduced to gunfire? This is also important, she should also learn to 'drop to the shot' so that when a gun fires she automatically sits or lies down.
For beating she should quarter the ground in front of you and hunt with her nose, not her eyes. I use two pips on the whistle and an arm signal to change their direction when they have gone far enough one way, although Alfie is now getting to the stage where he will do this naturally. If they do flush anything they must stop and lie down instantly until you invite them to start hunting again.
Dummies are used for retrieving work, I have 5 of them here, 2 canvas, one canvas floating, one fur and one feather, but I very seldom let the dogs use them, maybe only once or twice a week to keep them fresh. I know they can retrieve and so I try to keep it as much of an 'exciting treat' for them as possible so that when they do get to do it they're totally fixated on it. For starting retreiving training a tennis ball is just as good a thing to use. You must train Indie so that she will sit or lie still while the ball is thrown but that she marks where it lands so you can then send her on to find it. She must NOT run after the ball/dummy until you release her to go.
For my two the command I use is 'go on' and then 'seek it out'. I started teaching them this in the house by playing with a tennis ball with them then hiding it and encouraging them to find it. I would shut Alfie in the kitchen and hide the ball in the living room then open the door and release him then encourage him by saying 'seek it out' in a very high pitched voice and really going overboard on the praise when he found it. The best way to train them is to make it into a game, they should enjoy themselves at all times and you will really see that tail go! :D When the dog brings you back the ball/dummy/game they should hold it, sit in front of you and present it by tilting their head back, they should NOT let go of it until you have your hand on it and you ask them to leave it. Teaching a good hold and present can take quite a long time, I'm still doing it with Alfie!
You can get gundog equipement from country stores or any of the following...
www.gifts4gundogs.co.uk
www.scottcountry.co.uk
www.sporting-gundogs.com
www.canineconcepts.co.uk
www.countryloversstore.com
Some good books you might want to try are 'Gundog Training Made Easy' by Eric Begbie, and 'Training Spaniels' by Joe Irving. The first one in particular is a series of broadsheets and it is very short, concise and easy to follow.
Good luck and let me know if you decide to go for it! ;)
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:shades:
Hi Nic
Thanks for the reply hun ;) OK, I didn't know beating involved guns :lol: (I know so little about these things ph34r) I thought, it was flushing birds from the undergrowth :lol: ph34r while the handlers beat the ground with sticks :rofl1: :wasntme: There is no way in this earth, that Indie would be any use beating then thats for sure, as shes just not trained that well tbh ;) So thats a definate no no! But I could start training her I guess with a whistle to basic flushing, the problem is I do feel that Indie would be good at this, but with a better handler than me, I don't have any faith in my own training ability ::) At 4 do you think shes too old to be re-trained?
I'm going to meet up with OH's friend, as he said he would like to see what Indies like when shes out in the terrain, she does track things, but, while shes doing this she does become a bit ignorant t anything I am telling her :005:
Hmmm one to think about I think ;)
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Well written Nicola im impressed. :shades:
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OK, I didn't know beating involved guns :lol: (I know so little about these things ph34r) I thought, it was flushing birds from the undergrowth :lol: ph34r while the handlers beat the ground with sticks :rofl1:
:rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1:
Emma I really admire your honesty :005:
FWIW Billy would be no use either. Although he does an absolute mean "wait" & is brilliant with his nose. We play seek games all the time
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Emma I really admire your honesty :005:
:lol: :lol: ph34r ph34r ph34r
I feel embarrased but thats what I honestly thought it was, I had this idea in my head that the handlers, beat the ground with sticks, to entice the birds out :005: ph34r
Well I have learnt something today thats for sure, it could have been embarassing turning up Beating with a big stick :lol:
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Emma I really admire your honesty :005:
:lol: :lol: ph34r ph34r ph34r
I feel embarrased but thats what I honestly thought it was, I had this idea in my head that the handlers, beat the ground with sticks, to entice the birds out :005: ph34r
Well I have learnt something today thats for sure, it could have been embarassing turning up Beating with a big stick :lol:
No you're right hun, they do do this and sticks are useful but the birds are beat/flushed out towards a line of people standing there with big shotguns ready to shoot them :lol: :lol: which is why it's vital that the dogs do not chase and lie down at the first sign of activity/gunfire ;)
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Dont feel embarassed, when you are beating you do have a stick but you flush the birds towards the guns. Also stop under estimating you're dogs they are all capable ;)
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Emma I really admire your honesty :005:
:lol: :lol: ph34r ph34r ph34r
I feel embarrased but thats what I honestly thought it was, I had this idea in my head that the handlers, beat the ground with sticks, to entice the birds out :005: ph34r
Well I have learnt something today thats for sure, it could have been embarassing turning up Beating with a big stick :lol:
No you're right hun, they do do this and sticks are useful but the birds are beat/flushed out towards a line of people standing there with big shotguns ready to shoot them :lol: :lol: which is why it's vital that the dogs do not chase and lie down at the first sign of activity/gunfire ;)
:lol: :lol:
emma I apologise :lol: :lol: it's your turn to laugh at me :005:
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emma I apologise :lol: :lol: it's your turn to laugh at me :005:
:rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1:
No need Jan, I think its hilarious and has brightened up an otherwise stressful day ;)
Cazzie, I know Indie would be capable, but I don't think I am, I just don't seem to be very good at training her ;) ph34r
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emma I apologise :lol: :lol: it's your turn to laugh at me :005:
:rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1:
No need Jan, I think its hilarious and has brightened up an otherwise stressful day ;)
Cazzie, I know Indie would be capable, but I don't think I am, I just don't seem to be very good at training her ;) ph34r
Im always brightened up with peoples funnies on here :005: And im sure if you put youre mind to it you would be able to train Indie. Will let you know how we all get on at our Pro Training meet with our bunch of cockers. Im sure there will be even more laughs for you. :005: ;)
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Cazzie, I know Indie would be capable, but I don't think I am, I just don't seem to be very good at training her ;) ph34r
It's all fun though Em, even if Indie never makes it to an actual shoot. This kind of training can be so much fun and really rewarding and bonding for you and her... why not order a whistle and start practising some recall or start hiding toys around the house and garden and encouraging her to find them and present them to you? If she has the instincts, which she seems to, I'm sure she'd love it :luv: :D
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It sounds as if it would be great fun to do some training with her......and see where it leads ;)
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emma, i do think you're underestimating just what YOU can achieve with indie. i think you just might surprise yourself ;) go on. give it a go.
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emma, i do think you're underestimating just what YOU can achieve with indie. i think you just might surprise yourself ;) go on. give it a go.
Yeah I think you should give it a go
Nothing ventured nothing gained , plus you'll get loads of help from COL if you need it
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Cazzie, I know Indie would be capable, but I don't think I am, I just don't seem to be very good at training her ;) ph34r
Well Emma you can have a good laugh at me as I feel the same way as you do (what you posted above ph34r ) and I'm going on this training thing with Cazzie, Nicola and freya (Crazyspaniels) I'm heading to make a right fool of myself ph34r but hey ho I'll never learn if i don't try ;)
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emma, i do think you're underestimating just what YOU can achieve with indie. i think you just might surprise yourself ;) go on. give it a go.
Yeah I think you should give it a go
Nothing ventured nothing gained , plus you'll get loads of help from COL if you need it
What about you and Billy Jan ;)
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Cazzie, I know Indie would be capable, but I don't think I am, I just don't seem to be very good at training her ;) ph34r
Well Emma you can have a good laugh at me as I feel the same way as you do (what you posted above ph34r ) and I'm going on this training thing with Cazzie, Nicola and freya (Crazyspaniels) I'm heading to make a right fool of myself ph34r but hey ho I'll never learn if i don't try ;)
Caroline trust me Im a doctor :005: You will not make a fool of yourself. Have faith woman and be positive ;)
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Cazzie, I know Indie would be capable, but I don't think I am, I just don't seem to be very good at training her ;) ph34r
Well Emma you can have a good laugh at me as I feel the same way as you do (what you posted above ph34r ) and I'm going on this training thing with Cazzie, Nicola and freya (Crazyspaniels) I'm heading to make a right fool of myself ph34r but hey ho I'll never learn if i don't try ;)
Caroline trust me Im a doctor :005: You will not make a fool of yourself. Have faith woman and be positive ;)
You just want to win the BET :005: (bet is me and fern will be worst there ;) ) I have more to lose than you three I have one of his offspring :shades:
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Caroline where the heck do you think Sweepie came from :005:
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Caroline where the heck do you think Sweepie came from :005:
Opps - um erm too much wine tonight ph34r sorry
Been celebrating son back from his activity week away un scathed (sp) ;)
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emma, i do think you're underestimating just what YOU can achieve with indie. i think you just might surprise yourself ;) go on. give it a go.
Yeah I think you should give it a go
Nothing ventured nothing gained , plus you'll get loads of help from COL if you need it
What about you and Billy Jan ;)
I am working on a few basic things at the minute ph34r
I have a lot of admiration of those of you who work your cockers :shades:
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At 4 do you think shes too old to be re-trained?
Never too late! Crackers was 4 when I started her on birds. ;) Like Nicola said, get a whistle and start working on recalls, start doing some retrieves with bumpers (I use the cloth kind that have a pocket where you can stick a wing to get them used to it) and having her deliver it to your hand. Crackers was started on pigeons, they are dizzied so they won't fly, then planted in a field and the dog sent to find them. Let her know what an amazing wonderful thing she's done but insist she give the bird back! :005:
Just start slow, it has to be broken down into steps for the dog, but once they figure out what the object of the "game" is, you'll be amazed at how much they are be able to focus. Spaniels "faults" in the field usually result from over-enthusiasm! :005:
I wish I could go with you all! :'( It would be a blast! (And I want to see this cute trainer too! ph34r :005:)
And don't forget, dogs were put on this earth to make fools of us so expect it and laugh it off! :lol:
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Hi all I'm new to the forum.
But am experienced in gundog training (mostly Labs)
I have just got my first Cocker pup (pip) to train for shooting/Beating etc..
Have you seen the Simon Tyres set of 4 gundog training DVDs. An absolute must for Cocker training in my opinion....
:D
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Hi Rich :blink:
Not seen these but have watched a few others, they are so expensive to buy these training dvd's >:D
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Hi
Yeah they are expensive but for me it's a small price to try to get things right from the start as bad habbits are not easy if at all
posible to correct sometimes... :D
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Hi
Yeah they are expensive but for me it's a small price to try to get things right from the start as bad habbits are not easy if at all
posible to correct sometimes... :D
Youre right. ;) Iim lucky though my good freind is Pro Gun Dog trainer :blink:
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The difference to most cocker DVDs and Simon Tyres is he does start them so young.
Most advice you see or read is start them at 7-12 months etc.But his are almost fully trained by then
and his exceptional dogs are starting to look at trailing.
He won the open this year with one of his dogs at 15 months old........ :D
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The difference to most cocker DVDs and Simon Tyres is he does start them so young.
Most advice you see or read is start them at 7-12 months etc.But his are almost fully trained by then
and his exceptional dogs are starting to look at trailing.
He won the open this year with one of his dogs at 15 months old........ :D
I wouldnt be confident enough to participate in trials but do love to watch the dogs but suppose you have to start somewhere. I alway's start training pups from day one regardless of breed. These people like Simon had a special gift in training dogs its something that comes from within along with years and years of practice. Its not something he just picked up on out of a book. I respect these people greatly. :blink:
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The difference to most cocker DVDs and Simon Tyres is he does start them so young.
Most advice you see or read is start them at 7-12 months etc.But his are almost fully trained by then
and his exceptional dogs are starting to look at trailing.
He won the open this year with one of his dogs at 15 months old........ :D
I wouldnt be confident enough to participate in trials but do love to watch the dogs but suppose you have to start somewhere. I alway's start training pups from day one regardless of breed. These people like Simon had a special gift in training dogs its something that comes from within along with years and years of practice. Its not something he just picked up on out of a book. I respect these people greatly. :blink:
I agree they make it look easy. :005:
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Rich
You need to introduce yourself in the welcome section and tell us about all you're dogs and post some pictures. Would love to hear about you're labs :blink:
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Em we are just starting training now (Loki is aworking type) but we are only doing it for fun. I am just going to enjoy it and if he doesnt become a perfect worker then I honestly wouldnt mind, as he is a pet dog I am doing it purely for his mental stimulation. My advice as a fellow 'toe dipper' is have fun thats the main aim in our training.
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Rich
You need to introduce yourself in the welcome section and tell us about all you're dogs and post some pictures. Would love to hear about you're labs :blink:
I will do not sure about people wanting to know tho :005:
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Em we are just starting training now (Loki is aworking type) but we are only doing it for fun. I am just going to enjoy it and if he doesnt become a perfect worker then I honestly wouldnt mind, as he is a pet dog I am doing it purely for his mental stimulation. My advice as a fellow 'toe dipper' is have fun thats the main aim in our training.
For me i have read training books etc. But i find it so much easier to relate to Dvd's so you can see examples etc
Or maybe im stupid :005:
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Em we are just starting training now (Loki is aworking type) but we are only doing it for fun. I am just going to enjoy it and if he doesnt become a perfect worker then I honestly wouldnt mind, as he is a pet dog I am doing it purely for his mental stimulation. My advice as a fellow 'toe dipper' is have fun thats the main aim in our training.
Thats the main thing is to enjoy it as there is no point in doing it ;) My dogs do however work in the shooting field and come out rough shooting with me although its only a few months in the year its sill a good grounding for them dicipline wise. They absolutely love it :blink: and it brings many tears to my eyes to watch them watching me waiting to be told what to do next. They are so happy when they do things to please you. :blink:
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Rich
You need to introduce yourself in the welcome section and tell us about all you're dogs and post some pictures. Would love to hear about you're labs :blink:
I will do not sure about people wanting to know tho :005:
Go on! Say hello properly!! :police: :lol:
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The difference to most cocker DVDs and Simon Tyres is he does start them so young.
Most advice you see or read is start them at 7-12 months etc.But his are almost fully trained by then
and his exceptional dogs are starting to look at trailing.
He won the open this year with one of his dogs at 15 months old........ :D
Hi Rich and welcome to the forum ;)
I've just been leant Spaniel Traning class DVD's featuring Edward Martin (puppy to 8 months and 8 months to Adult) not watched them yet as only got them today
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The difference to most cocker DVDs and Simon Tyres is he does start them so young.
Most advice you see or read is start them at 7-12 months etc.But his are almost fully trained by then
and his exceptional dogs are starting to look at trailing.
He won the open this year with one of his dogs at 15 months old........ :D
Hi Rich and welcome to the forum ;)
I've just been leant Spaniel Traning class DVD's featuring Edward Martin (puppy to 8 months and 8 months to Adult) not watched them yet as only got them today
If you do get the chance to buy/borrow Simon Tyres Dvd's please look at them i think they are superb and they are in my opinion the best training Dvd of all breeds
i have seen...... :o
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You on commission Rich :005: :005:
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You on commission Rich :005: :005:
I wish i just think its that good.... :shades:
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cazza that pup in edward martins vid is strathfleet zimba aka wallace.. a ( strathfleet) rogart dog!!! rolos 1/2 brother! and simons winning dog , kenny, timsgarry barlow.. is sutherland/rogart lines too down the sires line.. kirkstall lever is a keepers dog hes called toby and hes liaths father and rolos mothers father too ( litter sisters)he was put to norleigh cocoa producing norleigh ceilidh and norleigh clune bothe ftchs one rols granny and one kennys grandfather.
so the small rogart dogs do get about!..
and .....
emma not all dogs flush and retrieve. up here they like the spaniels for flushing at shoots and the pickers up come behind with a mix of dogs spaniels and labs mostly.
if you are rough shooting ie rabbits then your dog will flush and retrieve.
and I was told at the skibo shoots last year a lot of dogs were being worked on long lines when flushing so you could do that. In fact when they are short of dogs it can be just you with a stick and the odd dog to poke its nose in here and there..
a lot of estates here struggle to get beaters during the season as everyone works..some folk only want their dogs to pick up..horses for courses.. ;)
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I wish Id been born the daughter of a famous gun dog trainer :shades: I love that cocker Timsgarry Barlow I have a picture of him on my notice board :luv: . I have the greatest of admiration for Mr Martin & his wife i envy their knowledge & experience, I would love to meet them one day ;)
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yes I was born the daughter of a sheep dog trialer.. :005:
but!! I found an old pic of my grandfather after ww1 before ww2 shooting with a working cocker ( they had loads of springers too) so am going to try and photoshop it so to print it out bigger.. Its one of those old sepia tiny jobs. and ..... hes got it on a long line with his foot firmly on the line as he takes his shot.. no daftie grandpa! it looks to be solid liver with a bit of white or grey on the muzzle.
as soon as i get organised Ill post it for you lot to have a squizz.
cazzie did you ever fancy trialling? me I hate crowds but its getting more young ones involved all the time. theres a rogart girl dead keen to try with a rolo rellie hes a blue roan.. hope she does well hes still v young about a year if that. actually theres a good highland turnout at these trials.. there was an article in the feild a couple of months ago it was good. it mentioned richard and his bad luck at the championships.. ;)
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Jean I have many an old photo of my clan :005: They are all from the shetlands (crofters) ph34r say no more. Would love to see youre old piccies.
Trials? Mmmm nor sure, I have a great dog at the moment to do it with but Im not confident enough. I was just talking about this today with a chap that does trial his dogs. I was saying to him there is not enough encouragement for newbies like me to get into it as the ones doing it are too intersted in winning themselves. But never say never. We should organise a trip up to you im sure the girlies and dogs would be up for that. ;)
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cazza that pup in edward martins vid is strathfleet zimba aka wallace.. a ( strathfleet) rogart dog!!! rolos 1/2 brother! and simons winning dog , kenny, timsgarry barlow.. is sutherland/rogart lines too down the sires line.. kirkstall lever is a keepers dog hes called toby and hes liaths father and rolos mothers father too ( litter sisters)he was put to norleigh cocoa producing norleigh ceilidh and norleigh clune bothe ftchs one rols granny and one kennys grandfather.
so the small rogart dogs do get about!..
oooohhhh I'm even more excited to watch the vids now ;) Last week never got a chance with being 'Mum's Taxi' service to get enough time to sit and watch them, so am hoping to do this on Sunday
Thanks for the added info it'll make it all the more interesting to watch ;)
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'Mum's Taxi' service
s'funny when Im not working or helping out on the croft i end up this too!! :shades: