Author Topic: scottish docking ban effects  (Read 4066 times)

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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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scottish docking ban effects
« on: November 06, 2008, 07:20:56 PM »
Really, really dont wanna start a debate on the pros and cons or ethical implacations of docking.  ;)
But am I right in thinking alot of cockers born after the ban and with full tails will be out on there first season now?
I was wondering what effect this has had and if there has been an increase in the number of tails being damaged or if having full tails is not causing any problems?

Offline Helen

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2008, 07:29:08 PM »
IF proper records/statistics are kept on tail injuries pro rata'ed against the number of dogs, and the type of cover the dogs are in etc etc then we will have a good idea in time but I doubt that amount of in depth recording will be undertaken.

Probably more appropriate to ask the question in a few years time, or at least at the end of the season  ;)
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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2008, 07:33:01 PM »


Probably more appropriate to ask the question in a few years time, or at least at the end of the season  ;)
I know but i have been desperate to find out what the implications of the ban are going to be since the day it came into effect. Im a little impatient  ph34r
I have been lead to believe that in scotland alot of work is done in heather which is less of a risk than im deep cover and brambles, dont have a clue if its true though  :huh:

Offline cazza

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2008, 08:00:32 PM »
I was beating the other week in Scotland and we were in deep cover and brambles - but not sure about other shoots

I have the scrathes myself to proove it ::)

Offline Beth

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2008, 08:13:37 PM »
Jarvis is no working dog  ph34r but he has a tail and is always running through thick cover (he regularly dives in gorse bushes if he sees a bunny :lol2:) and as long as i keep the fur short he never has any problems. :D On occasions when he's needed a trim he has got fur wrapped around brambles but even then hasn't been injured, i just had to untangle him. ;) He also loses a bit of tail fluff if he runs under barbed wire, the rest of him ducks but he just can't stop wagging for long enough to miss the barbs. :005: :luv:
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Offline Cotswold Girl

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2008, 11:50:54 AM »
Well it is not in scotland but last sept my cousin's vet refused to dock his sprocker pup when she was born and this may at less than a year old she had to have her tail amputated because of damage she was sustaining during training and walks. He had over a month of trying to keep her quiet to get it to heal and it really put back her training.

I hope someone is keeping records because my springer lost her tail 18 months ago and it was a horrid operation for her.
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Offline eljaybee1956

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2008, 12:06:24 PM »
Just as an aside to the subject matter. Down here in Oz, tail docking is illegal unless medical conditions deem it necessary. $10,000.00 and/or six months in gaol. The RSPCA are opposed to tail docking as can be seen on the following:
http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/tail.asp
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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2008, 02:07:37 PM »

I hope someone is keeping records because my springer lost her tail 18 months ago and it was a horrid operation for her.
There is people gathering eveidence of damage done to un docked dogs so they can ask for the law to be reviewed and use the evidence to help fight a ban on working dogs being docked in england if its ever persued.
I dont think i can post a link tho as its on another forum.

Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2008, 02:16:38 PM »
Just as an aside to the subject matter. Down here in Oz, tail docking is illegal unless medical conditions deem it necessary. $10,000.00 and/or six months in gaol. The RSPCA are opposed to tail docking as can be seen on the following:
http://www.rspca.org.au/campaign/tail.asp
Yes but that articale is talking about docking for cosmetic reasons. This is all it states on working dogs 

Another 'explanation' is that docking prevents tail damage in hunting dogs. But most docked puppies are kept as family pets and are never used for hunting. And research has shown that docking does not reduce tail injury in the general dog population. Furthermore, many breeds of hunting dogs do not have docked tails, and the length of the tail in docked breeds varies according to the breed standard.

I wasnt asking about the general dog population alot of reputable working cocker breeders who dock want their pups in working homes.  its unfair to class all working dogs the same as they have different tail structures and jobs.   ;)
I would be very interested though with the ban being in oz for so long if any evidence has been gathered about if tail damage is increased and how/where the dogs are worked.
Sorry if i sound a bit think but do they have have beats in oz and working cockers/springers whos job is to flush?


Offline supergirl

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2008, 02:24:06 PM »
I know this is slightly off topic, but have noticed a lot of young working cockers who look like they've only had the tip of the tail docked, about an inch and half.  Looks like they have most of their tail (3/4s).  Is there a reason for this, if the arguement is that tails get damaged why are they leaving much more of it on - or has it been noticed that the dogs have better balance if they have more tail.
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Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2008, 02:31:50 PM »
A proper working dock is alot longer than the old show dock.
It should only be 1/3 of the tail removed and yes i think it is so the dogs still have good balance and can communicate well but the tip that is most likely to get caught has been removed. I also think the last third of the tail is more delicate and where un docked dogs that unfortunately fracture tails get hurt as the vertebrae are smaller and weaker.
I did read somewhere once that 2/3 of the tail were left so the dog can cover and protect its genitals whilst working but I have never seen a dog do this as their tails are up and wagging constantly :005: So think thats an old wife's tail ::)

Offline wrenside

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2008, 05:07:22 PM »
We only dock one third off of our working cocker pups tails and ensure that they go to working homes.
We dock a third because ideally we want the dog to keep as much of its tail as possible, but we need to remove enough to ensure that the tail is not long enough to become split if it is whacked against branches, thick brambles etc... the longer its length the more fragile and vulnerable the tail will be in a working environment.
Tails if damaged tend to split up the length of the tail rather than across creating a 'split' paintbrush type of injury that can easily get infected and is difficult to heal. Often dogs who suffer a split tail end up having most if not all of their tail surgically removed because the nature of the injury tends to lead to tissue infection. 
So we have our dogs docked because we know that they will be used for work and want to give them the best chance of not sustaining such an injury during their lives, but also want them to have a tail to wag  :blink: .
I do think that cosmetic docking is unnecessary.

The RSPCA is slightly misguided when it lumps all 'breeds of working dog' into one category and so states that docking isn't necessary because you don't get docked Labradors for instance. Spaniels are used to go deep into thick cover and flush out game therefore their risk to getting tail damage is significantly higher than for say Labradors and retrievers which are generally used for retrieving game from land and water and don't work in close cover.

Anyway, I will be very interested to see what happens in Scotland regarding working spaniels and tail injuries.

Mary xxx

 

Offline Crazy Cocker Gang

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2008, 05:29:48 PM »
I have been looking up some facts on the ban that came into place in sweden in 1989 as I know they have working cockers and field trials.
Some sites say since the ban 51% of dogs that would of have been docked but were left un docked have damaged their tails.
Some sites say the statistic related to working breeds and others say its from the general population, it also doesnt state the level of damage done to count as injury. Its hard to know how reliable it is as its on pro docking web sites.
Think thats going to be a good country to look at for info tho.

Offline eljaybee1956

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2008, 09:02:21 PM »
I would be very interested though with the ban being in oz for so long if any evidence has been gathered about if tail damage is increased and how/where the dogs are worked.
Sorry if i sound a bit think but do they have have beats in oz and working cockers/springers whos job is to flush?


Sorry Jacks_Mum, can't help with any info regarding tail damage statistics how/where the dogs worked. As for beats in Oz, we do not have natural game such as pheasants etc (and I can't imagine a Cocker flushing out an Emu or Kangaroo  :lol2: but it would be a sight!!). Rabbits were introduced by the First Settlers (we can blame the Brits for that!) as were foxes.
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Offline jacnig

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Re: scottish docking ban effects
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2008, 08:10:04 PM »
One of our cockers - Lottie has a full tail and although still only a baby has been out with my husband and has a huge callous on the tip of her tail which bothers her as she keeps nibbling it and knocking the top off it.  Her tail does not stop her going into any cover though!!!
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