CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: Hannahc7 on March 04, 2013, 09:49:06 AM
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Hi all,
I am going round in circles with this researching puppy business! I thought I had it sorted, found a breeder, met the Mum who was lovely, puppies planned. Then someone has mentioned that I should probably stay away from Pups with high Field Trial background pups as they are such a handful and not biddable. I have grown up with working springers and while they are loopy they do calm down in the evening...ish.. :005:
I just wouldn't have a clue where to find pups from shooting background as all the breeders I have found seem to be from Field Trial lines? Does anyone know where to look for recommended breeders without so much FTCH in the line? Or if you have a high FTCH puppy do you agree that they are too much of a handful for a beginner at gundog training?
Any advice would be really appreciated! Thanks :D
Hannah x
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Hi I have a a pup that only has 9 non FTCH in her 5 generation pedigree and 4 of them were winners I am told, I have had a very lively springer pup in the past from a general working background and they are like chalk and cheese the springer was a bouncy energetic pup my Cocker is on a different level :D.
If you want a gundog then I would go for a trial bred dog to be honest its the only way you know you are getting a dog with the correct breeding, if you just buy a working Cocker you will be taking a gamble unless you know the parents and have seen them working.
Most gundog breeders want a strong FT pedigree so they can prove the working lines.
Not all FT bred pups are very hyper but most are, they are the thoroughbred race horses of the gundog world and you should be prepared that you might just end up with a pup that extremely testing for the first 6 to 8 months.
If you had asked me 3 months ago would I have another with this breeding I might well have said no but at 8 months Teal is getting so much better and I feel all the hard work has been worth it.
Her nose pace and marking are incredible for a dog of this age and she is very smart ( this also makes her harder work) but I just know she will turn out to be a cracking little worker.
So if you are really prepared to train the pup for the gun and go in with eyes wide open about the possibility of having a hooligan in the house for the first 6 months or so I would go for a pup with the best breeding you can get
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That is really helpful, thanks Jeff. I am fully prepared for the onslaught of a working puppy :005: I have no doubt they are a handful!
Can I ask where your pup is from?(She is gorgeous by the way!) I am on the waiting list for a pup out of Kali and have been just been on the phone to another breeder who explained that high FTCH doesn't necessarily mean more wired and it is all a gamble with puppies and it is just then how they are trained.
I am ready to put in a lot of work but want to make sure I am getting the right dog!
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No one really knows how a pup will turn out, but a pup with a good working pedigree will mean your chances are much higher.
Every time Teal winds me up with her behaviour in the house I just have to remind myself that one day she will be putting all that drive and energy in working with me.
Teal is a diffferent dog when she is out of the house when we are training /exercising in fact I would say she is a very easy pup out side, Its bordom that turns them into house hooligans but none of us can really give the pup 100% of our time 7/24.
Teals sire is Scrappy, her dam is Etakiel Partridge a non trialing dog but a very good worker she has 20 FTCH in her pedegree Maesydderwen Larford , Mawernffrwd and Timsgarry lines.
Kali looks to be a great dog and with Scrappy doing his bit I am sure the pups will be worth waiting for.
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I don't know if it's the case in cockers but in springers certain lines are known for specific traits eg Badgercourt springers are huge and very brave but are also head strong. My ex has a badgercourt springer which i had main caring responsibilities for when he was a pup, and he was the most demanding puppy i've ever had in the house. My ex keeps his dogs in outdoor kennels once they're 5 months and they are very calm in them, but get them indoors and they're like a bull in a china shop. I think a trials bred dog will need plenty of mental stimulation, so either gun dog training or agility, scent work etc. Having said all that, my show type cocker Lovely also requires alot of input and exercise! Good luck it sounds like you've identified a good breeder. Hopefully you'll get a puppy during spring or summer as better weather and more time outdoors definitely helps with workers!
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My two girls come from a very strong field trial background and I have found them the most biddable, honest, loving dogs ever. :luv: :luv:
If you prefer a pup to come from working parents, ask around the local gamekeepers ;)
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You could run your pup's pedigree past a local gun dog trainer as they often know alot about different breeding lines and traits
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Thanks for all your advice. It seems fairly split on opinion and I think that is probably because puppies can vary so much even within the same litter.
It is hard as although I really want a dog with some get up and go and energy for gundog training but I also want a dog who once worked will relax in the house maybe I am asking too much??
I will try and find some other breeders which have less ftch in the line and maybe fate will decide!! I am sure I will be very happy with whatever personality I will end up with though! Who knew puppy hunting would be so challenging!
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Here's a link (just to confuse you a bit more :005:)
http://www.gundogtrainingforum.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=15616
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Just to confuse things :005: I have three show cockers all of which embrace lots of exercise, but one in particular has the traits of a working cocker when out and about and is taking to gundog training like a duck to water
However, once indoors, he settles down with the other two and is not at all demanding, other than for cuddles :luv:
I guess what I'm trying to say is that even within an individual "type" be it working or show there will always be the exceptions to the rule
Good luck in your search, I look forward to seeing pictures of him/her when they arrive
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That is a good link Michelle, thanks. Although still very confused! I think I just have to go with what feels right. I am sure even if my pup is wired I will just have to put in that much more time into training!
7722lily tell me about it, we had a Show Cocker when i was younger who was absolutely gorgeous but if it was slightly overcast or cold she would get 2 minutes into a walk and just sit down and refuse to walk. We used to have to pick her up and carry her home!! So all sorts of personalities make a breed!
I am going to call around some more breeders and ask about this as at the moment I am finding it hard to find breeders who seem reliable that don't have so much FTCH.
:huh:
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Thanks for all your advice. It seems fairly split on opinion and I think that is probably because puppies can vary so much even within the same litter.
It is hard as although I really want a dog with some get up and go and energy for gundog training but I also want a dog who once worked will relax in the house maybe I am asking too much??
I will try and find some other breeders which have less ftch in the line and maybe fate will decide!! I am sure I will be very happy with whatever personality I will end up with though! Who knew puppy hunting would be so challenging!
I wish the very best of luck in your search for a pup, please remember to also check out the health testing the breeder has done, even more important than the pedigree. Nothing worse than spending 2 years training to discover your pup has bad hips or is going blind.
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I wish the very best of luck in your search for a pup, please remember to also check out the health testing the breeder has done, even more important than the pedigree. Nothing worse than spending 2 years training to discover your pup has bad hips or is going blind.
Shame that's not the approach being taken in the thread Emilyoliver posted above where health testing doesn't seem to be viewed with much importance at all. As the OP of that thread is a member here and has bred several litters from her show type dogs & presumably health tested them, I'm surprised she doesn't see it as a priority when looking for a working pup :huh:
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Hip scoring isn't that common, and neither is testing for FN (as far as I have seen), amongst working cocker breeders. Quite a few breeders are testing for PRA though, which at least is a start. I am a bit torn on this issue, as I believe the two (health testing and breeding dogs with correct working attributes and character) should be done together. One shouldn't preclude the other.
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Thanks Jeff! :D That's another area that has caused me confusion! So many breeders that have great lines haven't done health testing. One of the ones I am on the list for the Dad is tested but the Mum isn't however she is 8 years old so he said if there were any problems they would most likely have surfaced by now? She looked very healthy when I went to see her?
I have found there are more breeders that don't do health testing than do! Obviously I want a healthy pup but was beginning to think maybe I was asking for too much?
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Dad of my pup is tested too, so at least I know the puppy won't be affected. It's a risk/ compromise situation I think. I wasn't willing to go for a line I didn't specifically like just because all tests had been done.
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I am a bit torn on this issue, as I believe the two (health testing and breeding dogs with correct working attributes and character) should be done together. One shouldn't preclude the other.
Absolutely - there is no reason why they cannot go hand in hand. Breeding has always been a juggling act where you have to balance all of your different priorities and health should be one of those priorities, the same as character, working ability etc. It's good some successful kennels are doing at least some testing but there's still a long way to go it seems.....
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I have given you a link to the Working Cocker forum where there is a link to responsible breeders who do the necessary health tests ;) and lots of good advice. :D
http://www.workingcockerhealthscreendirectory.com/responsiblebreeders.htm
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I am a bit torn on this issue, as I believe the two (health testing and breeding dogs with correct working attributes and character) should be done together. One shouldn't preclude the other.
Absolutely - there is no reason why they cannot go hand in hand. Breeding has always been a juggling act where you have to balance all of your different priorities and health should be one of those priorities, the same as character, working ability etc. It's good some successful kennels are doing at least some testing but there's still a long way to go it seems.....
What was quite frightening was a person with a dog used regularly at stud who is producing carriers of an inherited condition. Owner of said dog hasn't had him tested and continues to offer him at stud. (not a trialling/shooting breeder btw). Disaster waiting to happen and very irresponsible IMO.
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Thanks Jeff! :D That's another area that has caused me confusion! So many breeders that have great lines haven't done health testing. One of the ones I am on the list for the Dad is tested but the Mum isn't however she is 8 years old so he said if there were any problems they would most likely have surfaced by now? She looked very healthy when I went to see her?
I have found there are more breeders that don't do health testing than do! Obviously I want a healthy pup but was beginning to think maybe I was asking for too much?
Out of curiosity,is that not "old" to be having a litter or have i read this wrong :huh:
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Toni, I am not sure is 8 too old? What are the drawbacks of the bitch being that old? It is her last litter.
I have found a few breeders that health test so will talk to them today.
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If you have the registered name for a dog you are interested in, you can also check on here for cockers screened and tested clear for PRA: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/4739/cockerspanielpraclears.pdf (there is a similar register which shows carriers - check the kennel club website). Also, if you type in your chosen sire/ dam's name on here: www.cockerspanieldatabase.info - if they have been put onto the system, you can trace their lineage (as well as progeny), and health tests are usually included.
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Thanks Michelle will take a look! :D
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Thanks Jeff! :D That's another area that has caused me confusion! So many breeders that have great lines haven't done health testing. One of the ones I am on the list for the Dad is tested but the Mum isn't however she is 8 years old so he said if there were any problems they would most likely have surfaced by now? She looked very healthy when I went to see her?
I have found there are more breeders that don't do health testing than do! Obviously I want a healthy pup but was beginning to think maybe I was asking for too much?
Out of curiosity,is that not "old" to be having a litter or have i read this wrong :huh:
I'd consider it too old but the KC allows litters to be registered as long as the bitch has not reached the age of 8 at the time of whelping. If the bitch is already 8, then any further litters can't be KC registered unless prior permission has been given (only usually given in exceptional circumstances)
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I'd consider it too old but the KC allows litters to be registered as long as the bitch has not reached the age of 8 at the time of whelping. If the bitch is already 8, then any further litters can't be KC registered unless prior permission has been given (only usually given in exceptional circumstances)
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Thats interesting, I was always of the assumption that 6yrs was the limit? Has this now changed to 8, or has it always been 8? :huh:
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Thats interesting, I was always of the assumption that 6yrs was the limit? Has this now changed to 8, or has it always been 8? :huh:
Not sure - it's been 8 years for as long as I can remember :-\ Breed Club Codes of Ethics are a bit stricter - the Cocker Spaniel Breed Council say no bitch should be mated after 7 years old.
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Thats interesting, I was always of the assumption that 6yrs was the limit? Has this now changed to 8, or has it always been 8? :huh:
Not sure - it's been 8 years for as long as I can remember :-\ Breed Club Codes of Ethics are a bit stricter - the Cocker Spaniel Breed Council say no bitch should be mated after 7 years old.
Don't know where I got that from then :huh: thanks
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Breed Club Codes of Ethics are a bit stricter - the Cocker Spaniel Breed Council say no bitch should be mated after 7 years old.
Hannah,i think this is possibly what was floating around in the back of my head (i had 7 in there for some reason :huh: ),which was why i was curious.
Good luck in your search. :D
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presumably health tested them, I'm surprised she doesn't see it as a priority when looking for a working pup :huh:
Yes, they have indeed all been Gonioscopy, FN and PRA tested. :D Unfortunately it is not so easy to find top working cockers that have been health tested. I have however found a good trialling breeder who health tests his stud dogs and is putting me in touch with owners of bitches that he believes to be suitable for my requirements and that have done the recommended health testing. Having said that we had untested working springers for years before the cockers and all lived to a ripe old age with barely a days illness until they were in their teens, so who knows, I merely said health tests were not my main priority, temperament was first and foremost for me, as I want a happy blend of working and home life and I was always lead to believe that the health problems were much fewer and far between in working lines. :huh:
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.. I merely said health tests were not my main priority, temperament was first and foremost for me, as I want a happy blend of working and home life and I was always lead to believe that the health problems were much fewer and far between in working lines. :huh:
Yes because that's what breeders say - it's exactly how show type breeders used to react 20 odd years ago & even now there are still breeders of show type dogs who don't test because they "know their lines" and have never seen any problems. That kind of attitude is thankfully rare now in the show community now but common in the working fraternity. You only have to peruse the health board on this forum to see that working type dogs can and do suffer from hereditary problems & no breeder can afford to be complacent (whichever type of dog they breed).
I hope you find what you're looking for anyway :blink:
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But on the other side of this, health testing is now being used as an extra marketing tool. Many breeders advertising on free ad sites now have 'pra, fn tested parents' as a first line. And just because sire and dam have been tested (or are hereditarily clear) doesn't automatically mean the pups have been well, carefully or responsibly bred.
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Apart from Kennel Club guidelines, do you know of any problems with older females being mated? I think this bitch looks really healthy and happy, and is such a lovely calm dog and the line is so good I think I would be prepared to take a risk on her although I am looking up health tested breeders now, thank you for the links :D
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Apart from Kennel Club guidelines, do you know of any problems with older females being mated? I think this bitch looks really healthy and happy, and is such a lovely calm dog and the line is so good I think I would be prepared to take a risk on her although I am looking up health tested breeders now, thank you for the links :D
The risks increase for older bitches as they do for older women - they're more likely to have trouble conceiving and/or need a c section if a pregnancy does result. It's unusual to breed from a bitch this old - wonder how many litters she has already had? And are you fine with having an unregistered puppy? (unless the breeder has prior permission from the KC to breed from this girl)
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And just because sire and dam have been tested (or are hereditarily clear) doesn't automatically mean the pups have been well, carefully or responsibly bred.
No of course it doesn't mean that but I'd far rather breeders were testing than not, whether they're using the fact they test to sell more puppies or not. I hate all these free ad sites personally but that's another topic :D
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Thanks Jeff! :D That's another area that has caused me confusion! So many breeders that have great lines haven't done health testing. One of the ones I am on the list for the Dad is tested but the Mum isn't however she is 8 years old so he said if there were any problems they would most likely have surfaced by now? She looked very healthy when I went to see her?
I have found there are more breeders that don't do health testing than do! Obviously I want a healthy pup but was beginning to think maybe I was asking for too much?
If the dam is already 8 years at the time of whelping the pups can not be registered with the KC. Something to keep in mind. ;)
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It's interesting to read this thread as it is just as difficult to find breeders of working type Cockers who do all appropriate health and genetic tests in America. Nearly two years ago during my puppy search I was speaking to many working type breeders who had recent imports from the UK and although they had dogs with excellent pedigrees, the fact that very few subjected the breeding pairs to what I saw as basic health tests worried me and eventually became the deciding factor of where I would get my puppy. I had originally wanted a worker as I thought that would best match our lifestyle and the activity level of my older spaniel, but I eventually chose to purchase a show type from a breeder who went above and beyond for all health tests and provided proof of those results from both dam and sire.
Health is the first priority for me when purchasing a dog. No matter how much I may fall in love with the dogs, I refuse to support breeders who produce dogs that may suffer lives in broken bodies.
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It seem that reading this topic it has been drawn to a health testing debate but regarding the op's original question I think it is fair to say that not every pup out of a litter will get the same upbringing, who is to say that the gamekeepers pup would not come on to become a FTCH if trained to do so ? and on the other hand the pup from both FTCH parents goes to a home as a pet and is everything the owners could ask for ?
A bloke once asked me about little Syds pedigree and he was quite impressed but he did say it would be his parent's parent's that he would want to look at. Maybe there is too much foucs on having ftch throughout a pups pedigree and not enough planning on the enviroment, rules etc in which the pup grows up in.
As for a pup with lots of ftch in it's prdigree not being easy to, I have to disagree both Lilly and Syd have been very easy to train. I think to the point were Syd has almost taught himself. You will not go wrong with a working cocker, like everything else in life "you get out what you put in"
Smokey
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Thanks for your all your help.
And thanks for the advice Smokey. I think I will just keep to trusted breeders and then just judge it by the mother and the pups temperaments.
Will keep you posted!! :D