CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: dylandog on April 06, 2013, 01:44:09 AM
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I'm absolutely gutted... I have bought a show cocker. I will try to make this very long winded story short. The puppy was ten months old when I bought him - he is not KC registered, which didn't bother me at the time, as I thought I could always get him registered at a later date should the need arise.
I did sign a piece of paper stating that I would not use him for breeding or for showing 'without prior knowledge and permission' from the breeder. After some months my interests changed and I felt that I would love to have a go at showing. So I approached the breeder and asked her permission. She was only too pleased to say yes as she could see that my puppy had grown into a gorgeous dog. But my puppy's dam was not registered.
So I asked the KC what the process was to get him KC registered. They said I could get him KC registered through the 'late registration' process as long as his Dam was not over 8 yrs old, but his dam had to be registered first before my dog could be registered. So I approached my dog's breeder who agreed that she would allow her bitch to become KC registered... I said that I would pay all fees of course, £120 in all! And to get my dogs dam registered, the breeder of her sire had to get involved and sign some forms.
So I sent the breeder of my puppy the forms that I recieved from the KC, she duly signed them and sent another form that I had recieved from the KC to the breeder of my puppy's dams breeder to fill in her part.
But that is where the stumbling block is...she will not fill in the form as the dog that she used to breed my puppy's dam was bought in as a 'pet' with endorsements and exclusions that he would only be a pet and would not be used for breeding - but she uses him as a stud dog. So she cannot fill in the form for me as she will implement herself and get in hot water with the 'reputable' stud that she bought the dog from. So it has left me totally devastated, I cannot KC show or breed from my lovely dog. It is such a shame, he is so intelligent, doing well in all his classes and is a P.A.T dog too.
I live on my own and he is my life, I just wanted to show a dog, it's on my 'bucket list'. I can't tell you how disappointed I am. I will try to contest this, but obviously it means getting the breeder of my dog's dam in hot water with the Stud she bought the dog from and possible the KC. I don't want to rock the boat.
I have spoken the the breeder of my puppy's dam and she bought her knowing she wasn't KC registered, but the endorsements and exclusions were not declared when she bought her. She did not want to show, so it did not worry her that she was not KC registered. So I didn't know about these exclusions and endorsements either.
What do I do??? I have written to the KC, awaiting thier response. I have all my fingers and toes crossed, but I won't hold my breath! :'(
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I'm sorry to say this, but I doubt very much that you're going to succeed in getting your boy KC registered. The owner of your dog's grandsire, who used him as a stud dog despite endorsements on his KC papers is just one of many people that choose to use their endorsed dogs and bitches for breeding purposes. As far as I'm aware the KC can neither prevent people from doing it or punish them afterwards. The only sanction to discourage people from using endorsed dogs is that their progeny can't be KC registered.
As for breeding with your dog (and I see you only mentioned it as a possibility, so I don't know how serious you are), do you know if his parents were DNA tested to check if they were clear of, carriers of or affected by either Progressive Retinal Atrophy or Familial Nephropathy? If they weren't, you don't know your dogs status with regard to those conditions so would need to have him DNA tested and make sure that he was only used on bitches that were also tested. There are other factors too, including that mating isn't always straightforward and without knowledge of breeding how can you ensure that the bloodlines of dog and bitch are compatible?
Any puppies would not be eligible to be KC registered and being perfectly frank you would be joining the legions of breeders without the knowledge, experience or health tested dogs producing potentially unsound and unhealthy puppies. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the reality.
You obviously have a lovely tempered, intelligent and lovable Cocker who is the apple of your eye. That's great, I have one too and he is everything to me. I understand your disappointment about not being able to do KC shows but companion and fun shows can be even more enjoyable, as can agility, flyball and other activities, all of which you can do with him even though he's not KC registered. So please continue to enjoy what you already do with him and perhaps explore some new things too :blink:
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I have to agree with Elaine - it doesn't seem likely that you will be able to get KC registration for your boy; this was always going to be more difficult with several generations of unregistered dogs due to the fact back along the line an endorsed dog has been used for breeding without the breeder's consent or knowledge. The KC won't be able to do anything unless this breeder agrees to lift the endorsement and there's not much chance of that if the owner of the dog won't even contact them to ask (that isn't surprising though as in the same situation, I would be furious if one of our puppies had been bred from without my knowledge & in breach of the signed contract).
If you really have your heart set on showing at KC shows other than Companion Shows, you could perhaps think about another puppy at some stage, but this time from a reputable breeder who actively shows (as well as doing all the recommended health tests of course). In the meantime, like Elaine says, there are lots of activities you can still do with your lovely boy so it's definitely worth investigating some of those things. You can register him on the Activity Register to enable you to take part in agility, heelwork to music, flyball etc: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3440
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Hi, thanks for your prompt replies. I have checked and his parents have been DNA tested for the usual cocker genetic conditions. And, I would never breed with him without first having him DNA tested himself. I would be responsible about it, and it would only be occationally if the situation arose. I would not use him as a 'continuing' stud dog, he's my baby and a pet at the end of the day.
I have read everything that I can find on 'exclusions and endorsements', it's a minefield isn't it!! It does state clearly in the KC rules on E'n'Es, that there are only two that reasons E'n'Es can be put on a dogs records 1. so they cannot be KC registered and 2. exportation, it states that the dog with the endorsements can still be bred from? So this is confusing. Do you think that the stud that sold my puppy's grand sire to the breeder arranged a 'private contract' stating the dog could not be used for breeding??
Also, I was not made aware of the E'n'Es, and it clearly states that I should of been made aware of, and the KC can step in here and possible over rule the endorsement? The problem has been made worse because the breeder of my puppy mated his mother again and she has just given birth to 8 fabulous puppies. She herself did not know about these endorsements, so she has just found out that she cannot get any of these puppies KC registered... she is fuming too. The breeder of the dam and grandsire should have made it clear to my puppy's breeder that the dog she bought (my puppy's mum) could not be KC registered, but she didn't, so it goes back down the line. And the KC do take a dim view of this as the purchaser was in effect duped into buying what they thought was a puppy that could at some time be KC registered through the 'late registration' process... like I did.
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Me again....
I am going to fight this, as it is not right. I don't want to get anyone in trouble with studs or the KC. But I may have to go back to the stud that sold my puppy's grandsire with the endorsements and ask if they would lift the endorsement for my puppy... is that possible? or does the endorsement have to be lifted from his grandsire. It is obviously going to get the breeder of my puppy's dam in hot water! So I'm in a difficult position.
I do know all about companion shows and the activity register, but I would dearly love to do 'even if it was just one' a KC showing show.
I lost my spaniel of 12 yrs last July to cancer, I still miss him so, then my partner walked out on me after 12 yrs together... never saw it coming! then I lost my horse late last year, so all in all, this was the kick in the teeth I didn't need. I only have him now.
What would you do in my position? x
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Personally? I would leave it and learn from this experience :shades: Frankly it's not worth the heartache. Enjoy him as the companion and the beautiful dog that he is - you don't need to prove that with a KC rosette :luv:
If you want to show then maybe another dog in the future - frankly this breeder does not sound particularly responsible and sounds like you were mislead about the circumstances of the endorsement :-\
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Personally? I would leave it and learn from this experience :shades: Frankly it's not worth the heartache. Enjoy him as the companion and the beautiful dog that he is - you don't need to prove that with a KC rosette :luv:
If you want to show then maybe another dog in the future - frankly this breeder does not sound particularly responsible and sounds like you were mislead about the circumstances of the endorsement :-\
I completely agree with Helen. It sounds like you have had a rough time :bigarmhug: and fighting this will probably only lead to more stress and nasty confrontations. It could drag on and on so why put yourself through it? Non registered pups in my experience are usually the result of endorsements somewhere along the line. If you decide you really want to show with a second pup in future then you will know, from all that has happened, to make sure you get a KC registered pup. Remember though that a lot of breeders put endorsements in place even on registered pups to prevent the pups being used for breeding in future.
Enjoy your lovely sounding dog and maybe consider Jane S's suggestion of companion shows or agility.
Would live to see some pics of your boy. ;)
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Also, I was not made aware of the E'n'Es, and it clearly states that I should of been made aware of, and the KC can step in here and possible over rule the endorsement?
No because this only covers the situation where you buy a KC reg puppy with endorsements but without knowing of the endorsements when you bought that puppy - it doesn't cover the situation where someone may or may not have been duped further back in the line which resulted in your puppy being unregistered. You bought your boy knowing he wasn't KC registered (I think you've posted previously he's registered with one of the other commercial registries) so you personally weren't deceived (unless your breeder lied to you and said the litter was KC registered)
I also agree with Helen your breeder (perhaps through lack of knowledge or experience) hasn't really done what a good breeder should do & if KC registration was important to her, it doesn't make sense to breed from your boy's mother at all, let alone twice :huh: Perhaps I'm missing something there though...
I think you're setting yourself up for more stress if you try to pursue this further - it's disappointing for you of course and you've learned a hard lesson but sometimes it's best to let go the things you can't change..
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Me again....
I am going to fight this, as it is not right. I don't want to get anyone in trouble with studs or the KC. But I may have to go back to the stud that sold my puppy's grandsire with the endorsements and ask if they would lift the endorsement for my puppy... is that possible? or does the endorsement have to be lifted from his grandsire. It is obviously going to get the breeder of my puppy's dam in hot water! So I'm in a difficult position.
I do know all about companion shows and the activity register, but I would dearly love to do 'even if it was just one' a KC showing show.
I lost my spaniel of 12 yrs last July to cancer, I still miss him so, then my partner walked out on me after 12 yrs together... never saw it coming! then I lost my horse late last year, so all in all, this was the kick in the teeth I didn't need. I only have him now.
What would you do in my position? x
I would show my dog at companion shows and also go to watch open or champ shows and research a possible future show dog from someone who shows the type of dog I'd like.
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I would also show him at fun and companion shows..... They are good fun and you can still win some rosettes with your boy. Join him up with the companion dog club and then you could enter into shows or classes that are just for companion dog club dogs. You can enter him in places like the London Pet Show and Discover Dogs. You never know, you could even end up at Crufts!! We did - our son won junior handling at Discover Dogs when he was 11 years old with our rescue dog - so they qualified for Crufts!!! We went and had a brilliant time - they didn't get placed, but I was so proud of them I cried with happiness!!
You can have some great times with "doggie" people in other ways and as others have said you can always do other activities instead of showing him.
Best of luck and enjoy your dog.
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Hi, thanks for your prompt replies. I have checked and his parents have been DNA tested for the usual cocker genetic conditions. And, I would never breed with him without first having him DNA tested himself. I would be responsible about it, and it would only be occationally if the situation arose. I would not use him as a 'continuing' stud dog, he's my baby and a pet at the end of the day.
I have read everything that I can find on 'exclusions and endorsements', it's a minefield isn't it!! It does state clearly in the KC rules on E'n'Es, that there are only two that reasons E'n'Es can be put on a dogs records 1. so they cannot be KC registered and 2. exportation, it states that the dog with the endorsements can still be bred from? So this is confusing. Do you think that the stud that sold my puppy's grand sire to the breeder arranged a 'private contract' stating the dog could not be used for breeding??
Also, I was not made aware of the E'n'Es, and it clearly states that I should of been made aware of, and the KC can step in here and possible over rule the endorsement? The problem has been made worse because the breeder of my puppy mated his mother again and she has just given birth to 8 fabulous puppies. She herself did not know about these endorsements, so she has just found out that she cannot get any of these puppies KC registered... she is fuming too. The breeder of the dam and grandsire should have made it clear to my puppy's breeder that the dog she bought (my puppy's mum) could not be KC registered, but she didn't, so it goes back down the line. And the KC do take a dim view of this as the purchaser was in effect duped into buying what they thought was a puppy that could at some time be KC registered through the 'late registration' process... like I did.
I find it strange that the breeder did not know about the endorsements until she had bred the mother again, or am I reading this wrong?
Also if the parents are not registered how did you find out about the DNA health tests?
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I get where you are all coming from, but it still leaves a real bitter taste in your mouth. Breeders should not be able to get away with buyer a dog with endorsements and then just ignoring them; it's not them it hurts but the likes of me. But when a reputable stud sells a dog to another breeder stating that the dog can't be bred from, what do they think they want the dog for?? Its obvious they are going to breed from them. Why don't they castrate before selling the dog?
I wil be doing some kind of shows with my dog. In fact I'm going to a show this weekend coming, a pedigree class and then in the afternoon a obedience class. We start agility next week, my vet was very worried about my dog starting agility until he was 18 months old.
We enjoy our hospital visiting and gun dog classes too, but I will always regret not being able to get him KC registered... you have to put the boot on the other foot and see it from my perspective, I feel kinda 'cheated'. I couldn't not get my last cocker registered because he was an american x english cocker cross, so I waited for nearly 13 yrs to get what I thought was a cocker I could get registered, all to no avail. I'm not getting any younger so probably won't buy another. I was considering buying one of my puppy's siblings as they are adorable, but now, not so sure.
In reply to an earlier question; I was given written confirmation that my puppy's sire was DNA and FA tested. So checked this against the list on the KC web site, and yes his father was on thier as tested clear - so he shouldn't be carrying the defective genes. And his mother's parents were clear too. I'm not sure I like what I've stumbled accross. I thought I was going to have a good time, meeting like minded people and just have good fun. But it seems there is a dark and more sinister side to the dog breeding world.
According to KC law, you do have to be made aware at the time of the purchase of the said puppy that it has endorsements on it - my puppy's breeder had do idea that the bitch she bought, his mother has endorsements. When she bought the bitch she was never made aware, but my puppy's breeder is a true 'home breeder' / hobby breeder selling cockers as 'pets' not for showing or breeding so it did not matter that she was not KC registered. But she wanted to register this litter she has just bred, but now she will not be able to.
It does annoy me when you see the words 'hobby breeder' written write accross thier home web page when you know for a fact they have 24 breeding bitches in outside buildings along with stud dogs... that's not a 'hobby breeder' that's a 'commercial' breeder! The puppies are not socialised like it says on their ad, how could they socialise that many pups?- It's just a breeding factory for money.
At least I purchased my puppy from a true 'hobby breeder' he was born at home and well socialised with everything that you would expect them to be socialised with. My puppy's breeder could take this further, but doesn't want to upset the apple cart. It doesn't bother me, I have nothing to lose. I have written to the KC, just waiting on thier reply. The KC do get involved if purchasers were not made aware of endorsements when they purchased their puppies, and that is definitely the case here, with me and my puppy's breeder. Yes you could say she was naive too, but everyone starts out somewhere, we have both learnt the hardway.
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We were given the kennel club papers & change of ownership for both Minnie and Dennis when we bought them. They were both from hobby breeders, but were very thorough with the documentation. Did you not think to ask for them at the time of purchase?
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Oh dear Who would think buying a dog could get so complicated eh ?
If you are into the dog world and have even a little experience it can can be daunting and confusing if you want to show,breed or find out about health testing.
Arm chair criticism can seem harsh from on a forum where members have a vast experience of most subjects surrounding dogs especially cockers :D. But I think people do understand your frustration and that you feel cheated and as you say you have unfortunately learnt the hard way .
Might be Best to wait to hear what the kennel club say in their response to your letter. Hopefully it will give you a full and detailed understanding of the kennel club extensive 'rules' .
As you mention you are enjoying other activities with your dog and you obviously love him to bits.. The hospital visits sound great and I am sure they bring a lot of joy . :luv:
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We enjoy our hospital visiting and gun dog classes too, but I will always regret not being able to get him KC registered... you have to put the boot on the other foot and see it from my perspective, I feel kinda 'cheated'. I couldn't not get my last cocker registered because he was an american x english cocker cross, so I waited for nearly 13 yrs to get what I thought was a cocker I could get registered, all to no avail. I'm not getting any younger so probably won't buy another. I was considering buying one of my puppy's siblings as they are adorable, but now, not so sure.
I think we all understand how you are feeling and how disappointed you are and yes you are right there are some very dodgy breeders out there but also plenty of excellent reputable breeders too. I guess this is just a lesson for everybody thinking about getting a puppy that if you want a KC registered puppy, then this is one of the first things you must check on (along with health test results etc). Reputable breeders register their litters so the paperwork is ready at (or soon after) the time the puppies go to new homes - registration isn't something that gets sorted out later by new owners and sadly this is something you have found out the hard way.
I'm not sure that I understand the reference to "armchair criticism" in the post above - nobody has criticised you personally - we have all just tried to help & explain how the endorsements system works, even if it wasn't what you perhaps wanted to hear. Anyway, good luck - hope you get the answers you're looking for from the Kennel Club and that you continue enjoying your lovely boy :D
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The fact that the dog wasn't registered in the first place and that the breeder was breeding from an unregistered dam should have been the first warning sign. There is absolutely no good reason why a dog isn't registered. Even if you are only interested in a pet, proper documentation of registration and health tests should have been offered upfront by the breeder. I don't understand why you had to do all the digging for research yourself when your dog's breeder should have been the knowledgeable and responsible party here. Just because the breeder is a "true hobby breeder" doesn't make them reputable or responsible. A lot of "hobby breeders" are just backyard breeders with a nice front and a nice name.
This is a hard lesson learned and you just might have to cut your losses.
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JohnK> I didn't ask for the KC paperwork when purchasing my puppy because the breeder had already told me that he was not KC registered, so there wasn't much point in asking for paperwork that didn't exist. She simply said he wasn't registered - I knew that I would have to do the leg work to get him registered, and all would have been straightforward if the breeder of his mother hadn't been 'selective' with the truth. She 's the one at fault, not my puppy's breeder.
Seems to me this puppy breeding / showing / selling business is shrouded in mystery, and is only for the 'knowledgeable' in the know breeders, we the general public are dealing with a 'closed shop' mentality. I know that breeders keep the best for themselves, and will only tell you what they want you to know or what suits them. At the end of the day... for the most, breeders are in it for the money. Breeders that do it for the love of it are few and far between.
I'm seriously thinking of contacting the stud that sold the so called 'pet' cocker with the endorsements / exclusions and informing them that the dog has been used for breeding and on several occasions! Unless someone sticks their neck out and uncovers this type of thing, it's just going to keep happening.
Can you tell me... if they really didn't want the dog bred from, why didn't they just cut off it's bits before selling it??
I'm not bothered by 'armchair critism' bring it on... I'm learning from it that's for sure. Just don't know if I like what I'm learning about the dog breeding world... rather shady if you ask me.
Think I'll stick to gold fish - they don't come with endorsements!
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JohnK> I didn't ask for the KC paperwork when purchasing my puppy because the breeder had already told me that he was not KC registered, so there wasn't much point in asking for paperwork that didn't exist.
To be brutally honest if you wanted a KC registered pup that badly it would have been better to walk away at that point and find a pup that did have its papers :-\
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JohnK> I didn't ask for the KC paperwork when purchasing my puppy because the breeder had already told me that he was not KC registered, so there wasn't much point in asking for paperwork that didn't exist. She simply said he wasn't registered - I knew that I would have to do the leg work to get him registered, and all would have been straightforward if the breeder of his mother hadn't been 'selective' with the truth. She 's the one at fault, not my puppy's breeder.
Seems to me this puppy breeding / showing / selling business is shrouded in mystery, and is only for the 'knowledgeable' in the know breeders, we the general public are dealing with a 'closed shop' mentality. I know that breeders keep the best for themselves, and will only tell you what they want you to know or what suits them. At the end of the day... for the most, breeders are in it for the money. Breeders that do it for the love of it are few and far between.
I'm seriously thinking of contacting the stud that sold the so called 'pet' cocker with the endorsements / exclusions and informing them that the dog has been used for breeding and on several occasions! Unless someone sticks their neck out and uncovers this type of thing, it's just going to keep happening.
Can you tell me... if they really didn't want the dog bred from, why didn't they just cut off it's bits before selling it??
I'm not bothered by 'armchair critism' bring it on... I'm learning from it that's for sure. Just don't know if I like what I'm learning about the dog breeding world... rather shady if you ask me.
Think I'll stick to gold fish - they don't come with endorsements!
Sorry you feel this way but I would just like to point out a few things. The first thing is not to buy an unregistered dog, there is no reason for the dog not to be KC reg unless something underhand is going on. Only the dogs breeder can KC register the dog so you could not do anything about it yourself.
There are lots of threads on COL and other breed websites that give lots of valuable info about buying a puppy from a reputable breeder so no, dog showing/breeding is not shrouded in mystery.
From what I can see from this thread is that maybe your puppy's breeder should have done her homework before breeding. This is just my opinion but to tar every breeder with the same brush because you have been unlucky is a bit unfair.
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JohnK> I didn't ask for the KC paperwork when purchasing my puppy because the breeder had already told me that he was not KC registered, so there wasn't much point in asking for paperwork that didn't exist. She simply said he wasn't registered - I knew that I would have to do the leg work to get him registered, and all would have been straightforward if the breeder of his mother hadn't been 'selective' with the truth. She 's the one at fault, not my puppy's breeder.
Seems to me this puppy breeding / showing / selling business is shrouded in mystery, and is only for the 'knowledgeable' in the know breeders, we the general public are dealing with a 'closed shop' mentality. I know that breeders keep the best for themselves, and will only tell you what they want you to know or what suits them. At the end of the day... for the most, breeders are in it for the money. Breeders that do it for the love of it are few and far between.
I'm seriously thinking of contacting the stud that sold the so called 'pet' cocker with the endorsements / exclusions and informing them that the dog has been used for breeding and on several occasions! Unless someone sticks their neck out and uncovers this type of thing, it's just going to keep happening.
Can you tell me... if they really didn't want the dog bred from, why didn't they just cut off it's bits before selling it??
I'm not bothered by 'armchair critism' bring it on... I'm learning from it that's for sure. Just don't know if I like what I'm learning about the dog breeding world... rather shady if you ask me.
Think I'll stick to gold fish - they don't come with endorsements
I wasn't trying to be negative over all this, I am just amazed that people sell their dogs as pedigree, without the documentation to prove it. I have never wanted to breed from my dogs and have always had my bitches neutered and I am sure Dennis will soon be "done"
I do think that if people are putting endorsements on their puppies, there should be a considerable discount for the privilege.
By this action, not only have you been stopped from having your dog sire KC registered dogs, but you have also been stopped from showing in KC shows. I think these type of endorsements should be much more visible, as I am sure many potential buyers would be deterred by these restrictive practises.
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As far as my experience goes, endorsements can and are lifted by breeders. If you are able to show that you aim to breed for the right reasons, many breeders are happy to remove endorsements/ exclusions. However reasons such as 'I really like my dog and my neighbour has a nice bitch who needs to have a litter' are unlikely to be acceptable. My breeders insisted that I contact them should I want to breed as they would be the right people to advise on suitable, compatible lines. I saw this as valuable support and sharing of knowledge. They also wanted their puppies shown to prove that they were suitable stock. I don't believe any of these requirements are excessive, and don't believe decent breeders hide info or are frugal with the truth. This is usually the case with people breeding 'to make a bit if cash'.
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I think it is fairly common for dogs to be endorsed as not for breeding. Both Pippa and Barney are. I have no intention to breed from either, but their breeders both said that if I wanted to in the future they would look at lifting the restriction IF the dogs were suitable for breeding (right temperament, health checks, no undesirable features etc). I am quite happy with this as the restrictions simply help prevent ill-considered indiscriminate breeding but don't stop me breeding my dogs if they are smashing dogs that could add something to the breed. I didn't get a discount on them or expect one because they were endorsed.
Not being KC registered at all is a different matter. I wouldn't buy a dog that wasn't.
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I've removed some posts from this thread because it was going off topic and some unpleasant comments were being posted.
My understanding is that breeders put endorsements on in order to try and prevent people from breeding litters indiscriminately. Endorsements can be lifted with the agreement of the breeder and I know of cases where that has happened. I don't see that endorsed puppies should be sold at a reduced price. A KC registered dog with endorsements can be shown and do all normal activities but if the owner chooses to breed they do so knowing that the puppies can't be KC registered.
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As far as my experience goes, endorsements can and are lifted by breeders. If you are able to show that you aim to breed for the right reasons, many breeders are happy to remove endorsements/ exclusions. However reasons such as 'I really like my dog and my neighbour has a nice bitch who needs to have a litter' are unlikely to be acceptable. My breeders insisted that I contact them should I want to breed as they would be the right people to advise on suitable, compatible lines. I saw this as valuable support and sharing of knowledge. They also wanted their puppies shown to prove that they were suitable stock. I don't believe any of these requirements are excessive, and don't believe decent breeders hide info or are frugal with the truth. This is usually the case with people breeding 'to make a bit if cash'.
That's exactly how we use endorsements and all our owners fully understand about the endorsements and why they are there. We have occasionally lifted the breeding endorsement on request and after health tests have been done but it doesn't happen often as most of our owners have no intention of breeding & indeed we don't generally encourage pet puppies to be bred from. There's no hiding of the endorsements - we state on our website that puppies will be endorsed (including pups we keep ourselves because we don't know when keeping a pup whether he or she will be good enough to breed from) and endorsements are also discussed when potential owners visit and explained again in writing in our puppy contract (as the KC insists breeders must do).
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, and all would have been straightforward if the breeder of his mother hadn't been 'selective' with the truth. She 's the one at fault, not my puppy's breeder.
Your dog's breeder wasn't misled though, she chose to buy an unregistered bitch and then breed from her anyway without even trying to register her or she would already have known about her sire's endorsements when you approached her. If it mattered to her she should have asked when she bought the bitch, or at the very least before breeding from her for the first time. Your frustration is understandable and the stud owner should not be offering an endorsed dog for breeding, but your dog's breeder really hasn't done things the right way either. I don't think she has any right to be angry with anyone given that she's already bred the bitch twice before deciding to try to register her which is shutting the stable door long after the horse is gone.
It's understandably frustrating for you, and underlines the importance of finding a responsible breeder and making sure everything is in place in terms of registration and health testing before you buy a puppy. The 'just for pets' excuse doesn't hold, there's no good reason for breeders not to register litters. Of course there are bad breeders who do KC register, but that's where buyer research again comes into play and ensuring that 'your' breeder is doing it in the right way and for the right reasons. Everyone has to start somewhere but when it's something as important as bringing more puppies into an already over-full world - rescues are full to bursting with 'pet bred' dogs - it should be after doing the research and making sure you're doing it properly. The information is there for breeders and buyers, there's nothing shady or mysterious about it, the internet has made doing the research a lot easier with breed club websites, forums like COL, the Kennel Club website etc. all easily accessible.
I'm also not sure what is meant by 'armchair criticism'; you've asked questions on a forum and are getting answers, they may not always be what you want to hear but nobody on the thread has been personally critical.
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Just want to say a big 'thank you' for all your replies...very enlightening!! Espcially to the 'uneducated'. Can I just say - It was not me that first posted about 'armchair critisim', I can't remember off hand who it was, so don't shoot the messenger, please!
Also, it is not true, the breeder is not the only one that can register the dog, my dog in this case I have it in writing from the KC that I can register him as long as I get the forms signed by his breeder and his grandsires breeder. You just follow the 'late registration' process.
Also, why is it so important to have dogs KC registered, like my puppy's breeder, what's wrong with breeding cockers and not registering them. I have heard that many breeders are not doing this now... there are so many people out there that couldn't care less if they are registered or not. As long as it is pointed out at the point of sale. My puppy's breeder has bred 4 lovely litters of pups that have gone to good homes and all owners are very pleased with them and didn't mind one bit that they were not KC registered. Her main reasons for not registering them is because she didn't want the boys to become stud dogs as some live a very unhappy lives, and the other reason is because she doesn't like the showing world, so she tries to place her pups into loving homes where they are just pets. I unfortunatelly fell in love with my puppy when I saw him, and let my heart rule my head...totally my fault, I knew it was going all down to me to get him registered and pay the money too. Yes I should have walked away, but he was gorgeous and had such a lovely temperament. I just didn't understand or know about 'endorsements'.
I know you are all going to shoot me down in flames now for saying that it's perfectly okay to sell unregistered pups... I understand about the health reasons etc. But papers doesn't mean the dog is not going to die from some terrible disease. I suppose registering does keep a tally on the number of pups being born and to what dog. So there is for and against.
You can even KC register a cocker from an 'unverified pedigree'.
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Also, it is not true, the breeder is not the only one that can register the dog, my dog in this case I have it in writing from the KC that I can register him as long as I get the forms signed by his breeder and his grandsires breeder. You just follow the 'late registration' process.
It is true - maybe it's a case of semantics here but even in cases of late registration, it's still actually technically the breeder doing the registering even though the owner might be organising or trying to organise the paperwork, get signatures etc
Also, why is it so important to have dogs KC registered, like my puppy's breeder, what's wrong with breeding cockers and not registering them. I have heard that many breeders are not doing this now... there are so many people out there that couldn't care less if they are registered or not. As long as it is pointed out at the point of sale. My puppy's breeder has bred 4 lovely litters of pups that have gone to good homes and all owners are very pleased with them and didn't mind one bit that they were not KC registered. Her main reasons for not registering them is because she didn't want the boys to become stud dogs as some live a very unhappy lives, and the other reason is because she doesn't like the showing world, so she tries to place her pups into loving homes where they are just pets.
Not going to shoot you down in flames at all and in some respects you are right as yes there are plenty of buyers out there who don't care about registration and breeders too. BUT and it's a big BUT, your breeder's argument that non registration stops her dogs being bred from doesn't hold any water at all - as you say yourself, unregistered dogs are being bred from all the time so it makes no sense to use this as a reason for breeding unregistered puppies :huh: The other argument that she doesn't register her pups because she likes her pups to be placed in loving homes as pets is also a bit baffling to be honest - we show and register all our pups and 99% of our pups are in carefully chosen pet homes (as is the case for most show breeders). A pet home also doesn't exclude showing by the way - I consider my own dogs to be pet dogs first, show dogs second and I know a lot of COL members who show feel the same way (presumably you do too since this whole sorry tale started because you want to show your boy & your breeder was happy for you to do so)
KC registration is no guarantee of a good breeder but it should be the basic starting block for all breeders - you have a traceable pedigree ancestry, public access to health testing results (not available for non registered dogs or those registered with other companies), access to a wider range of activities etc etc. Breeders who register their puppies also make their breeding activities public - breeders who don't KC register their puppies in effect hide their litters (and this I know is one of the motivating factors for some breeders since it makes it more difficult for local authorities and inland revenue to trace how many puppies they breed). I could go on but suspect it won't make any difference to your own views but it might help any other potential puppy buyers out there ;)
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Hi Jane S.
Thanks for your reply... if there is one good thing to come out of all this is... I've learnt a dam lot!! Phew, there's a lot to take in.
I was wrong, when I said in my last post that I could register my puppy, I read the letter wrong, I am doing the paperwork and sending it in, I just had to get the breeder of my puppy to sign it; so in effect she is registering him, I'm just doing all the leg work to get it done, but it will look like the form to register him is coming from her. Can't believe it was going to cost me £120 to get both the dam's sire and the dam registered. It was only right that I paid as it was only me that wanted them registered.
But that's all water under the bridge now... looks like I may have hit a brick wall and that will not even happen now. My only other way round this situation is to contact the stud that put on the endorsement to see it it could be lifted 'maybe for one puppy?' But as I have said before, it drops the stud that used the 'endorsed' dog into hot water.
I'm still waiting on a reply from the KC. They say it's who you know not what you know; wish I knew someone in authority in the KC!
Yes, this has been a steep learning curve for me, and I apologise to anyone that I may offended, I didn't mean to tar all breeders with the same brush. Of coure there are hundreds of good breeders out there who truly care that they breed healthly dogs and sell them with all the correct credentials.
I have seen it mentioned a few times that I could have gleaned correct information from the KC website or COL. But if you don't know about these websites, then they are not much use. I didn't realise what a wealth of information there was on the KC website, and what a 'knowledgabe' bunch you all are. I only found out about COL by accident too.
But should I come accross anyone thinking of buying a puppy, I have certainly learnt a lot of very useful information that I can pass on. I will always steer them to the KC website and forums for the breed that they want. In life it is said, that for every bad situation that you find yourself in, as long as you learn from it, then it's not been for nothing.
Imagine all the help that I would have got from yous if I posted that I was going to buy an unregistered dog that I wanted to show, from an unregistered bitch!! I certainly would not be in this position that I'm in now.
But, then I wouldn't have my lovely cocker either, who I love to bits, wouldn't want any other cocker, he's my life and we will enjoy whatever we do together.
Mind you, I may not be saying that in a month's time when we've started the agility... I'll have more aches in places I didn't know could ache!!
Once again - thank you all for taking the time to clarity the situation and pass on your 'invaluable' knowledge' to me - which is now stapled on my brain!
Thanks. x
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But that's all water under the bridge now... looks like I may have hit a brick wall and that will not even happen now. My only other way round this situation is to contact the stud that put on the endorsement to see it it could be lifted 'maybe for one puppy?' But as I have said before, it drops the stud that used the 'endorsed' dog into hot water.
Well maybe they deserve to be in hot water as they have not acted ethically or responsibly ph34r Trouble is if the endorsement is lifted, that's it - it can't be done for one puppy only and then be reinstated afterwards as the dog is no longer in the original breeder's possession. Perhaps best to see what the KC says but you might have to be patient - they don't tend to reply quickly to this sort of enquiry (don't think it matters if you know someone at the KC or not as it would be the admin staff that deal with registration/endorsement enquiries rather than KC members)
Anyway good luck with the agility - I'm sure your boy will enjoy it and it's definitely a good way to get fit :D
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Thank you Jane S. Yes I'll be patient and see what they say. I agree with you perhaps the breeder in question does deserve to get thier knucles wrapped'.
I'll post the reply that I get from the KC.
xx
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Just to update yous.... I contacted the breeder/stud that put the endorsement on the dog - they are not happy, not happy at all! But I was shocked to find out that the kennels/breeder that bought the endorsed dog, did buy it as a pet and did know she could not breed from him, but that's not it, I've since found out that they are known as a 'puppy' farm! there have been numerous problems with this breeder, lots of complaints and problems with puppies. I had this suspicion because anyone with 24 bitches must be a commercial / puppy farm type establishment, but if you read thier web site, it sounds 'idyllic', 'hobby breeder', all pups socialised... not! and they are 'possibly' bred from more than once a year. I'm glad to see that the Kennel club 'state' that they are trying to clamp down on this. But then they said they can't get involved? it's a matter for the authorities. So what is it? I reported what I know and the lady said it's up to me to do something about it?? I found that very odd. I'm not getting involved anymore, I've stuck my neck out far enough as it is, I'm only doing this for the sake of all those puppies.
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It's not unknown for dodgy breeders to buy dogs from good kennels pretending to be pet buyers - doesn't sound like the breeder of the endorsed dog actually did enough checking though, unless the buyers used a different name as sometimes happens. If these breeders are legally licensed by their local authority to have that many bitches, there is not much anyone can do about them - commercial breeding of puppies isn't illegal (as long as there is a license to breed) It is sickening to see such kennels describe themselves as "hobby" breeders when they are obviously a business - Trading Standards might be interested in this maybe! And if there are that many complaints out there about them, then the local authority should be investigating the kennel's license assuming they have one (as well as Trading Standards if they are selling unhealthy puppies).
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It is also not unknown for breeders to get other people to buy puppies from respected breeders and then transfer them into their own names for the purpose of breeding. I know of one such person who does this but does buy unendorsed dogs.