CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Rachelre10 on October 04, 2013, 07:26:14 PM
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Hi have been reading a lot into genetics that produce the colour of a dog and understand that black is dominant over every other colour.
So if you have a black dog how many other colours can that black dog carry.
I was under the impressing that it could carry one other colour for example gold.
Then if mated with a gold they would only produce gold and black.
but I then seen a litter advertised a month or so ago where there was a black father a gold mother (which I understand must carry to gold genes as they are recessive) which had black,gold and chocolate pups some with tan points.
I find all of this really interesting thanks Rachel :D x
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Very interesting. Tillys mum was white, chocolate and tan and dad was chocolate and tan., Tilly herself is black with a white chest, chin and back feet (slightly) and her face and bottom has tan/ginger running through them.?????
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I'm not sure if I just don't understand it correctly or what, but what I seem to understand that if u have two both with chocolate gene that's a recessive colour therefore all pups would have some form of chocolate on them, where did the black gene come from because if either parent carried the black gene it would dominate over the chocolate gene and therefore the dog would be black ????
Xx
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I did google some of her KC 5 generation and found a black one. The breeder also had a bitch from her previous litter a few years ago and she was jet black (not sure if the same dad or not) too. genetics is to complicated for me.
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It does get extremely complex, but also extremely interesting just hope someone on here can enlighten me :D
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It's all here! A bit of a weighty read though!
http://www.powerscourt-cockers.co.uk/advice_pages/coat_colour_inheritance.htm
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Hudson's mum was red and his dad was sable. Hudson is black and tan, he has a black brother and sister, chocolate and tan sister and a sable brother! I haven't done genetics since my undergrad degree but something tells me coat colour inheritance is very complex!! :o
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That is exactly what I have been reading though, it seems to say that they only carry 2 genes of any mixture then the most dominant gene being the colour of the dog.
So a black dog clearly has 1 black dominant gene (B) and another gene of some colour
And a gold dog must carry 2 gold genes in order to be gold.
So to result in black and gold pups the black dog must also carry the gold gene so therefore there is a mixture of black and gold pups due to the black dominant gene going to a quarter of the litter (I understand that the 'and tan' gene is another ball game) but how is it genetically possible for a chocolate to pop into the mix ??
Xx
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Hudson's mum was red and his dad was sable. Hudson is black and tan, he has a black brother and sister, chocolate and tan sister and a sable brother! I haven't done genetics since my undergrad degree but something tells me coat colour inheritance is very complex!! :o
Oh yes that does sound like a lot of colours in the mix ! Seems to be very complex but still extremely fascinating xx
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This is fascinating stuff, if a little mind melting! Have just been reading this one which seems to explain the scenario you mentioned. I think!
http://www.stirling-ecs.org/general/color_genes.html
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I have also read thought this one, the only thing I can think would add up is if red is dominant to chocolate therefore both carry the chocolate gene.
Which would than make
Black dog (Bb)
Gold dog (eb)
Therefore could create a (bb) resulting in a chocolate pup if that makes any sense :huh:
Xx
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I think you're getting confused about the 'inheritance of two alleles' thing - there are a huge number of genes that control coat colour and pattern acting in various loci on the chromosomes, so the dog doesn't just inherit two full stop, it inherits two copies of the allele for each gene iyswim.
Hair colour is created by two pigments - eumelanin (black/liver) and phaeomelanin (red) - but a huge number of genes control these these pigments and therefore dictate the coat colour and pattern.
In your example the black dog is BbEe (dominant black carrying for liver, gold carrying but not expressed); these genes, and the agouti one for 'and tan' which he must also have, are found at different loci on the chromosome. Therefore the gold bitch in your example can also carry for liver and 'and tan'
The below is my understanding of it in the case of my dogs...
My liver pigmented (therefore liver carrying) red bitch produced black, black and tan, red and liver in a litter to a black dog.
She is bbeeKkatatSS (bb=liver carrying, ee=homozygous red, Kk=no tan points herself but can produce it, atat=can produce and pass on tan point and SS=solid coloured doesn't carry particolour). She *could* be kkatat (tan pointed) and they are not visible due to the extension e gene (red) masking it, but I'm assuming she isn't.
The dog in this case is BbEeKkatatSS (Bb=black carrying recessive liver, Ee=heterozygous non-red, dominant E stops it being expressed but recessive e can be passed on, and KkatatSS same as my bitch).
My liver pigmented gold dog has produced gold, red, liver and black when mated to black bitches. He is bbee (liver carrying, homozygous red). He hasn't produced particolour when mated to a bitch that previously has so I'm assuming SS. I don't know about tan but based on his lines I doubt it.
When he has been mated to a liver pigmented red bitch they only produce red/gold puppies. Both of them are bbee and in all their pups the recessive e extension gene prevents the extension of eumelanin (the black/liver pigment) in the hair follicle so all the pups are red/gold. Their pigmentation (eye rims and nose) shows the 'true' colour (liver in this case).
When mated to a liver bbEE bitch all the pups were liver as they were all bbEe and the dominant E extension gene allowed the extension of the black/liver (bb liver in this case) pigment.
A liver son and daughter from a black bitch have produced black, gold and liver (not together :005:) and a black son from a black bitch has produced black, red, gold and liver to a gold bitch.
The gold litter sister of the abovementioned black son recently produced a litter containing solid black, solid liver, liver roan and black and white when mated to a blue roan dog. Ro doesn't carry parti but I know that the dam does as she has previously produced it.
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That's what I was trying to think of a way to say! But much better obvs :lol: The examples of Mendelian inheritance and punnet squares usually use just two alleles of a gene for simplicity sake - for example smooth seeds and wrinkled seeds (text book example!). Animal cases are often more complex - for example human hair colour.
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Very interesting. Tillys mum was white, chocolate and tan and dad was chocolate and tan., Tilly herself is black with a white chest, chin and back feet (slightly) and her face and bottom has tan/ginger running through them.?????
That cannot happen with chocolates. That combination would only produce chocolate and tan, chocolate roan and tan, chocolate white and tan, gold, orange roan with chocolate pigment and orange and white :-\.
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Very interesting. Tillys mum was white, chocolate and tan and dad was chocolate and tan., Tilly herself is black with a white chest, chin and back feet (slightly) and her face and bottom has tan/ginger running through them.?????
That cannot happen with chocolates. That combination would only produce chocolate and tan, chocolate roan and tan, chocolate, gold, orange roan with chocolate pigment and orange and white :-\.
That's what my understanding was :huh:
Xx
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There is probably another dog involved and a parentage test would find it out. The only way you can get black from 2 recessives is if you put a gold with black pigment to a chocolate.