CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Feeding => Topic started by: carol pearson on November 27, 2013, 01:30:50 PM
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I was very keen to try WW's new grain free fish and sweet potato wet food because this is Ozzy's main evening meal but I cook it myself.
My concern was how dark the colour was compared to other fishy wet foods and even their other flavours, turkey, lamb.
I am probably going over the top with this but I just have to be so careful with his sensitive tummy. I have tried other fishy foods before but none has suited him.
I am aware that it is manufactured for PAH and phoned their customer services with my query. They past it onto the supplier.
This is their response.
"Our QA Technologist has received a response from the supplier and they have advised that the white fish product will have some natural variation in colour from batch to batch based on the raw material sourced. They typically receive ‘frames and trim’ from the selection of fish available to them and this raw material will be inclusive of heads and skin. As you would expect, the skin and head is dark in comparison to the flesh which will result in a darker finished product.
The amount of actual flesh will vary but in essence is not the most significant proportion of the raw material, as they purchase the by-product from the filleting process.
They have advised also that it would be great to have the product returned to them so they can see the issue first hand but understand this isn’t always possible. Batch code information is also very useful to help them investigate further, do you still have the batch codes from the packaging? They do keep retained samples to enable them to back track effectively and also to keep a close eye on quality through shelf life.
I hope that this information has somewhat eased your concerns and if you still continue to purchase the product and are not happy with the quality, as previously mentioned, the supplier would like to have the product back. We would advise that you return the product to your local store and they will complete a product complaint form and send the product back to the supplier . The store will also offer you a full refund or exchange of your choice."
I would appreciate any opinions, from you clever COLs, on this but if I am reading it right, it seems to be saying that they use more fish heads and skins and not much flesh.
What do you think about this, am I being to particular.
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All fish and meat in dog food will be the bits us hoomans don't eat, so yes it will be the heads, tail, bones and skin nothing wrong with this dogs are not as fussy as us. ;)
Have a look at the price of a cod fillet in the supermarket about £6 per pound and you will see why they don't use in dogs food.
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I disagree that all fish and meat in dog food is what humans wont eat. I know that food I give the girls has human grade meat, is organic and holistic. There are lots of foods that don't use animal derivatives.
You can always e mail them back and ask if what they are saying is that the food contains fish heads and skin. :blink:
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But even if it is human grade, it could still be stuff we wouldn't choose to eat, can't it? In that we could eat it safely, but might not want to...
I raw feed so Daisy eats all manner of animal bits I'm sure, it is all human grade stuff though but I wouldn't touch some of it with a bargepole :D
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It seems to me the main ingredients are fish head and skins, with a smaller percentage of flesh.
Obviously the cost is the main thing.
Dogs will eat anything but what goodness are they getting from the food? That to me is the first thing to consider. A lot of dogs do well on any type of food just makes you think about what you are buying :huh:
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Sounds to me like it is human grade, but the bits we don't generally eat. I don't have a problem with that. Plenty of goodness in the heads and skin. I'd be a bit worried by any sharp bones though.
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But even if it is human grade, it could still be stuff we wouldn't choose to eat, can't it? In that we could eat it safely, but might not want to...
Actually no, that's not the case. I researched the food my girls are on very thoroughly I can assure you. The words animal or meat derivatives is usually an indicator of the rubbish you are meaning.
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But even if it is human grade, it could still be stuff we wouldn't choose to eat, can't it? In that we could eat it safely, but might not want to...
Actually no, that's not the case. I researched the food my girls are on very thoroughly I can assure you. The words animal or meat derivatives is usually an indicator of the rubbish you are meaning.
But you don't know it's not the case in this case IYSWIM ;) Not all foods contain animal or meat derivatives that are "rubbish" they could contain human grade food which is a waste product when the bits humans will eat have been used? I think that's what Fluff meant. the ingredients listed on this particular food do not mention "animal or meat derivatives" it simply lists "white fish 70%"
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But even if it is human grade, it could still be stuff we wouldn't choose to eat, can't it? In that we could eat it safely, but might not want to...
Actually no, that's not the case. I researched the food my girls are on very thoroughly I can assure you. The words animal or meat derivatives is usually an indicator of the rubbish you are meaning.
I'm sure you did, but fish heads and skins aren't necessarily rubbish for animals, even though we wouldn't choose to eat them! In fact some of these bits are very high in protein and other good stuff like vitamins. I also research my dog's food very carefully, as I'm sure most people do on here, and she is fed on "human grade" ingredients - but I don't take that to mean she is feed on only the parts of a chicken a human would generally eat, I take it to mean she is fed on chicken that is healthy enough to be eaten by humans but could be any bit of said chicken.
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But even if it is human grade, it could still be stuff we wouldn't choose to eat, can't it? In that we could eat it safely, but might not want to...
Actually no, that's not the case. I researched the food my girls are on very thoroughly I can assure you. The words animal or meat derivatives is usually an indicator of the rubbish you are meaning.
But you don't know it's not the case in this case IYSWIM ;) Not all foods contain animal or meat derivatives that are "rubbish" they could contain human grade food which is a waste product when the bits humans will eat have been used? I think that's what Fluff meant. the ingredients listed on this particular food do not mention "animal or meat derivatives" it simply lists "white fish 70%"
Ah cross posted, yes this is what I mean :D
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I am not talking about the OP's post. It was in answer to the statement that all fish and meat in dog food is bits that humans don't eat. Which is absolutely not the case.
Sorry to the OP for going off topic. I would still send another e mail and ask what percentage of the fish is heads or skin. I would also be annoyed if the ingredients stated 70% white fish but that included heads and skin! no matter how full of protein it is.
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I am not talking about the OP's post. It was in answer to the statement that all fish and meat in dog food is bits that humans don't eat. Which is absolutely not the case.
Sorry to the OP for going off topic. I would still send another e mail and ask what percentage of the fish is heads or skin. :blink:
Ah yes, I see. Sorry! Good idea to check the percentage. I suspect pretty high given the cost of most fish.
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Yes. I suspect so. It's one of the reasons I love the ethics of Lily's Kitchen. I would hate to think bits of an animal are going in my girls that I don't want in them ..... however good the meat is.
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All fish and meat in dog food will be the bits us hoomans don't eat, so yes it will be the heads, tail, bones and skin nothing wrong with this dogs are not as fussy as us. ;)
Have a look at the price of a cod fillet in the supermarket about £6 per pound and you will see why they don't use in dogs food.
Several quality dog foods use fresh whole fish, pike, salmon, herring, flounder etc.
Here's the list from Champion pet foods http://www.orijenpetfoods.co.uk/acatalog/ingredients.html
Bob.
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I wouldn't worry too much about fish heads - they've fallen out of favour now for human eating, but Mrs Beeton has recipes for cod's head (google cod's head recipes). And even the most organically raised beef has 'cuts' such as skirt, clod, brisket, shin, cheek etc. which (British) humans don't like to eat any more but are perfectly nutritious.
Dogs have lived alongside us for thousands of years eating the bits we don't want, and have thrived.
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I do not know why folks get so uptight about fish and animal carcass being used as long as its human grade , Dogs need bone in the diet the rest is flesh just not the bit we eat now days, but saying that I have had cod cheeks a good few times on Scandinavian boats and it is the best bit of the cod and I eat the skin on cod as well.
I will accept that there are a few manufactures that use whole fish that is not destined for the human market but its not the norm, when did you last see pike or flounder in the fish mongers I have eaten both Pike is not to bad if you are starving Flounder is fishy cotton wool with bones in it.
Cheap bad dog foods use processed fish and animal meal, those companies that make a good quality dog food use quality fish and animal by-product i.e. the bits we don't eat
My dog has chicken carcass all the time, she has whole fish that I catch or buy from the super market she also has what's left after I fillet a fish it makes no difference to her, I would not dream of giving her just the fillet she would be loosing out on the goodness from the bones and skin.
As far as I am concerned its not what part of the animal she is eating that's important its the quality of that animal and the fact it has not been processed at all.
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Sorry Jeff, I'm not getting uptight about anything. You made a statement about the type of fish in dog foods and I pointed out that this wasn't necessarily the case, and gave a link to the manufacturer concerned. They also say that the fish, and other animal products they use, HAS been passed as fit for human consumption and is not pre-processed prior to delivery to them.
Dog food is a very emotive thing and we all have our own opinions on what's best for our dogs. I'm not saying that the dog food I use is any better than anyone else's choice, merely that the statement you'd made didn't accord with the published data from at least one pet food manufacturer.
Not intended to be critical in any way, merely informative ;).
Bob.
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Sorry Bob my comments were not directed at you in anyway please forgive me if you think I was having a go, I was admitting that some companies use whole animal and fish after checking your link, but more that some folks get upset about using carcass and the bits we normally don't eat.
Yes we worry more about our dogs diets than we do our own you can imagine how I argue with the guys I know who feed their dogs by price and not content.
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It seems to me the main ingredients are fish head and skins, with a smaller percentage of flesh.
Obviously the cost is the main thing.
Dogs will eat anything but what goodness are they getting from the food? That to me is the first thing to consider. A lot of dogs do well on any type of food just makes you think about what you are buying :huh:
If I remember correctly the head of the fish is the most nutritional part and contains nutrients that the flesh doesn't contain... so just because it is something we don't eat, doesn't mean that it's no good. ;)
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It seems to me the main ingredients are fish head and skins, with a smaller percentage of flesh.
Obviously the cost is the main thing.
Dogs will eat anything but what goodness are they getting from the food? That to me is the first thing to consider. A lot of dogs do well on any type of food just makes you think about what you are buying :huh:
If I remember correctly the head of the fish is the most nutritional part and contains nutrients that the flesh doesn't contain... so just because it is something we don't eat, doesn't mean that it's no good. ;)
And the eys will see him through the week ;)
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It seems to me the main ingredients are fish head and skins, with a smaller percentage of flesh.
Obviously the cost is the main thing.
Dogs will eat anything but what goodness are they getting from the food? That to me is the first thing to consider. A lot of dogs do well on any type of food just makes you think about what you are buying :huh:
If I remember correctly the head of the fish is the most nutritional part and contains nutrients that the flesh doesn't contain... so just because it is something we don't eat, doesn't mean that it's no good. ;)
And the eys will see him through the week ;)
:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
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I'm sorry but if my food label says 70% white fish, that's what I would be expecting, not fish heads and skin. I understand how nutritional they are but I would still want to know that is what they use so I can make an informed choice. As an owner of a dog susceptible to pancreatitis, I wouldn't feed skin of any kind to her and I would rather use a food that is clear and concise about exactly what goes in that food. :blink:
However, that is just my opinion based on what I feel is right for my girls......
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Sheryl, if you are worried about the amount of skin in the food I would check with the supplier as " White Fish" is a name normally used to describe the type of fish such as cod, haddock, pollock etc so this could be the whole fish, if it is just the flesh it would be described as white fish fillet.
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No, I'm not chick. I know exactly what the girls eat :blink:
I was talking about the OP who was worried about the colour of the Wainwrights wet fish she bought. I was just passing comment that it sometimes isn't as simple as being able to let your dog eat anything. I agree with you though Jeff. She may need to clarify if it is just 70% fillet if that is what she thought she was buying...and what she prefers :blink:
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Well, thanks for all your comments and opinions, this is a brilliant forum.
Sheryl has summed it up, has it says 70% white fish (I am probably being a bit naive here but) I would expect some flesh, although I know not all fish flesh is white.
I don't have a problem with heads or skins, Ozzy has the dried fish skins has treats.
I think I was a bit shocked with their reply, they also mention "frames and trims" not sure exactly what the frames would be but take it to mean back bones etc.
I know most dogs can eat almost anything but I have to be careful because of his sensitive tummy. Which is why he eats mainly fish and why I queried the colour of this food. We have tried other fishy wet foods but they are usually a light beige colour, WWs was a very, very dark brown.
I have tried different foods for him, even raw, but he seems to be settled on fish.
I will not be giving him the WWs wet food. Although I have to say he has WWs dry salmon and potato for breakfast and this food helped to get his stomach sorted. I just like him to have a wet food for tea (that's just me).
JeffD, thanks for the link to orijen food, it reminded me that we tried a sample of this about 18 months ago and at the time it did not suit him
but it may be worth trying again has his stomach is now much more settled.
Dog food is such a minefield.
Once again thanks for taking the time to reply to my post.
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We feed our Chaz on Orijen and Milly on Acana, both are from a Canadian company, Champion Petfoods and we source ours online from Zooplus.
Orijen is very high in protein and may not be the best for Ozzy but I'd suggest looking at Acana, it's not so high in protein but is still made with the same high quality ingredients and their Acana Pacifica Dog Food is still grain free, contains 55% fresh fish and deemed suitable for sensitive dogs....http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/dogs/dry_dog_food/acana/grain_free/132052
It may seem costly compared with other dog foods but, as it contains no bulking ingredients, the amount fed per day is quite small. We feed Milly, our 12.6 kilo adult female show cocker, 130g a day over two meals which means that a 13 kilo bag contains 100 days of food and, at £62-90 delivered, that's just 63p a day.
May be worthwhile giving one of the smaller pack sizes a go but, if you do, remember to change over very slowly taking at least ten days to complete the process.
Bob.