CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Candyfloss on March 02, 2014, 08:33:08 PM
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Hi I have a nine month old cocker puppy. He is supposed to be a show one but vet reckons he is a worker despite pedigree etc etc. I have had two sprinters before so am not a novice owner however I'm ashamed to admit I'm almost ready to re home him. I'm really desp for some advise
Ok here goes! Since day one he has bite inhibition and snaps at hands face etc when putting collar on etc etc. he trouser bites very badly. I have always done as they say and stood still sometimes for twenty minutes whilst he rips my trousers off at the knee. Shoes ruined then jumps up rips pockets etc. a few times I have had enough and shouted I know I shouldn't. It makes him worse. He jumps up barking and snapping more
If that wasn't enough he was neuter three weeks ago as neighbour complained he was barking a lot in garden. He was but only obit three min a day as he just cocked his leg. I hoped neutering would calm him. It didn't. Since then he now won't lye me leave room without barking
I can't clean teeth. Shower. Let alone leave house. I can't just let him bark as neighbours reported to council
I'm aware by going back I'm just reinforcing it but what can I do? I have tried a citronella collar it made him so scared he clung even more to me
Tried water bottle. Stones in tins. Clicker. The lot
don't work so he is not alone or bored. He gets two 45 min walks a day he seems to start mouthing at end of walks, am I over walking?
He has kongs chews toys balls etc etc
He used to be good re the leaving but now it's getting me down. I'm literally a prisoner
My parents are begging me to re home him as he is making me I'll but I don't want to
I have had a trainer come to house three times. Vet has out him on xylene all to no avail
Should he out grown trouser biting by now? He nips calves now too. I have tried yelping etc.
I
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:bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: to you. Somebody will be along shortly with some great advice that should hopefully help you all.
Just wondered in the meantime what food and quantity of food is he on?
Does he have a crate? Is he the same at night, or does he sleep with you?
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Hi. He is on James well beloved junior
He has a crate but I don't lock him in it. He was always very good at going in and sleeping
He sleeps in kitchen at night. That is next thing I'm waiting for him to start at night. Touch wood he good as gold at night. Can it be separation anxiety then if he lets me go to sleep for nine hours?
Couple weeks ago even with me sat on floor with him he barked SEVEN. Hours non stop. I phoned trainer and vet after an hour and they eventually sedated him and he stayed at vets over night. They said he was good as gold? Therefore can it be SA or was he so drugged he couldn't bark?
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Ps I have put my avatar with a photo go him if anyone thinks he is a worker or show? His pedigree is show but has workers bout 7 gen back. His parents didn't have the traditional long droopy ears and smooth coats so I'm not sure what he was. I guess I didn't scrutinise them hard enough in excitement of picking him and trusting what the breeder was saying!
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At age 9 months Pearl had me in tears. I sat in my living room and sobbed wondering what on earth I'd done by taking on a dog- or rather, a low flying, hyperactive set of teeth.....
Almost overnight she calmed down. I did change her food from puppy food (Chudleys Junior) to adult food but also went back to basics and made sure she had a set routine. I found she was far worse if over tired or excited - playing with her wasn't possible around this age as she was just too excitable - I think it's affectionately referred to as the teenage stage.... I found that she had to sleep for the morning, even at weekends (bit frustrating as that's when I don't work!) but this really helped.
I'm a bit concerned that your Trainer has suggested using aversion techniques with him - there are lots documented stories of negative outcomes such as dogs that become frightened of their owners as they fear the noise/water etc. He is still young and there is plenty of time to address his behavioural issues - can I suggest contacting a Canine Behavourist who will only use positive reward methods - they will show you coping techniques and help you identify his trigger points for barking.
Where are you based? There may be someone on COL who can either recommend a Behaviourist or may be able to help.
Jayne
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Hi Jayne glad to hear I'm not alone!
Yes everyone says I should re home him but I really don't want to. My trainer says he is ' a playful bully' and in his teenage stage.
He was mouthing quite rough from 7.5 weeks tho?
I train him every day too, two to three sessions five/ ten min a time.
I just dunno how people ho to work full time and leave them? I seriously can't go to the loo without him barking and my neighbours dropping a note thro my door. It's really upsetting
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Candyfloss you are so not alone :bigarmhug:
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Candyfloss you are so not alone :bigarmhug:
Definitely not alone :shades:
It's worth looking through some of the older threads on here.... Plenty to do with exactly the sort of behaviour your boy has ;)
Can I ask what his mealtime routine is? Do you make him sit and wait? I do this with Miss P otherwise her behaviour deteriorates as she constantly tests boundaries..... She's now 3 but us a lovely calm dog most of the time :lol2:
It's hard to help you both on here was we only have what you've written to go on.... Without seeing the two of you together and what his triggers are
J
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Yes I always make him sit and wait for food, at door ways etc and he is very good at that to be fair. He hardly eats either! He eats bout a third of what he should each day although seems fine on it!
The trouser biting I can deal with but why he has just started barking when I leave him I dunno? There has been no change to routine etc but it all seems to have stared since the neutering
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If his barking has only really started since neutering it would be be best to speak to a Behaviourist I think
Edited to add: if he's not eating much of his food it may be time to move him onto adult food which is lower in protein/energy? JWB is a good brand but it may also be worth trying him on something different - it's amazing the difference the diet makes.
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I'm sorry you are having such a tough time. I think a lot of us on here have been at the point of rehoming at some point of puppy/adolescence. Bonnie is our 3rd dog but our 1st cocker and I found her puppyhood very difficult. However, I would not change her for the world now and with patience, time and some help I'm sure you can overcome the issues.
As Pearly suggests, there are lots of older threads on here regarding biting and barking which should give you a bit of information as to how common this is (especially the biting). I just want to say hang in there....they can be frustratingly hard work but will bring you years of love and laughter in the end xxx
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He was mouthing quite rough from 7.5 weeks tho?
at that age they were testing their teeth out and this is where the bite inhibition training started - and was basically puppy biting not mouthing per se
in their teens they do mouth and grab and all manner of antisocial things - adolescence is a trying time in any species and you have to start by going back to basics and its not about why is he still doing this, he's doing it again as he's now a teenager and pushing boundaries and unfortunately he's much bigger than he was as a tiny pup.
You do sound like you need more professional help though to point you in the right direction (and someone who uses positive/non-aversive methods).
In the meantime - short training exercises to try and focus him and getting him to bond more with you so he will eventually listen to you.
However there are no quick fixes as adolescence in itself can last till they're mature around the age of 2 years and while he may not be as bad as you think he is now he may just keep presenting with the odd thing that makes you feel as if you're going backwards again
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Hi Candyfloss. Puppies are such hard work and some are more challenging than others! Can I ask how much exercise he is getting? My almost 3-year-old Penny is very excitable and I've found that a good run about off the lead every day and an interesting walk is a great help as it diffuses the dog's energy. I also play games such as scenting (in the house or garden) which tire her out as much as exercise. I do think spaniels need a bit extra exercise for body and mind to satisfy their needs, as well as affection and boundaries.
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No advice I'm afraid just lots of these :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
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So sorry you're having these problems. I found with my pup that he was really awful if he didn't get enough sleep - he needed frequent naps during the day, especially after a bout of activity or even training, I wonder if your lad might be similar. He was also very bitey when he needed to poo.
Can you train a sit-stay or a down-stay to enable you to move away from him, initially briefly, but building up to your being able to go out of his sight?
Regarding your neighbour and complaining to the council, it might be worth keeping a diary of when your pup actually barks and for how long, so that if the council do call round you have some evidence of your own. If you are on reasonable terms with your neighbour, might a bottle of wine or box of chocs help? together with making them aware that you are taking practical steps to deal with the problem.
:bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
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Hi and welcome to COL :blink:
I'm sorry that you're having so many problems with your puppy (what's his name by the way?). it sounds like it's all getting on top of you at the moment and your puppy will be picking up on your tension, which won't be helping either of you.
It's pretty much impossible on a forum to understand what's causing problems as none of us have met you or your puppy. But if the trainer you've used has advised using a citronella collar, water bottle, rattling stones in a tin then please ditch the trainer now. As Pearly has already said using aversive techniques is likely to make your dog confused and fearful of you.
Neutering may not make any difference either, especially if he is an anxious dog. But even if it does help, the full effects may not be apparent so soon after neutering.
He's at an age where he's adolescent and also probably going through a second fear stage, which happens around 9 to 11 months or so and can be a very confusing time for a puppy.
I really think you would benefit from a home visit by a good behaviourist, one who uses positive methods and doesn't start talking to you about dominance or using rattle bottles or other forms of punishment in order to change your puppy's behaviour. A good behaviourist will observe you and your puppy together and talk to you at length to determine the cause of the problems and come up with some positive things for you to try.
In the short term it might be worth changing your walking routine as you say he starts to mouth near the end of walks. Could you perhaps try 3 shorter walks a day and doing some training sessions in between, keeping them short and fun so that you don't put pressure on either of you. You could try some fun games like hiding a few treats and encouraging him to find them, making it more challenging once he's got the hang of it. Have you got a Kong or a treat ball that you could put some of his food in, plus a few special treats, to keep him occupied for a while. If he likes chewing, try him on something that will last a while like a cow ear or pizzle stick (under supervision) as chewing can be very relaxing for dogs.
If he's not eating properly you could also try him on a different food, perhaps a wet food like Nature Diet, and see if that helps. If you can find a food that he enjoys and eats enough to feel satisfied that may help to calm him down.
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:bigarmhug: :bigarmhug: :bigarmhug:
No expert here at all but very happy to share if it helps at all, Pops was flipping hard work until she was about fifteen months old. Recently we're having a whole bunch of lovely days and when we have a less good one (like yesterday) it reminds me how much she's matured. I took some great advice here about diet from members who found their dogs were very different depending on dried food and even different flavours of the same food. We tried a few foods and finally I took her off ALL dried foods and she just eats wet with raw top up. No idea what does it, but if she's had something with grain in it I can really see the difference in what I now think of as hyper/silly moods but which worried me a lot when she was a puppy that it was aggression or reactivity and made her just unmanagable. She is a reactive dog but it's much, much more manageable now.
I also (again on advice here) kept searching until I found things she really wanted to chew (half antler horns, hooves, fish for dogs sticks and cardboard work for her) and when she's loopy the first thing I tried was keeping her busy. A smear of pate deep inside a plastic bottle so she has to chase it, or she loves a treat wrapped in paper inside a box which is inside a box stuffed with toys, that'll take her fifteen minutes to unpack and she loves shredding up cardboard boxes. Things to think about seem to calm her down and direct the energy somewhere useful.
She will now sleep in a crate for a couple of hours while I'm out without the faintest problem (I often catch her just waking up if I sneak in quietly) but at nine months she was still barking her head off if she was crated or even if I left the room and went out of her sight. Some of what helped was making leaving the house a very predictable routine (even same tv channel put on) plus a really good kong, and crating her when I was in the house sometimes even if I was in the room with her. Some of what helped I think was just getting older, she got experienced in how it worked and she grew out of it, I never found anything that worked in coping with me going out of her sight at home other than just keeping on doing it and weathering it until it started to fade. We saw a Behaviourist who did some TTouch with her and that helped get through that time, and I found the book Fired up, Frantic and Freaked Out by Laura VanArendonk Baugh helpful too.
It was like trying to put a collar on a crocodile with springs until about a month ago. She is now getting much better at sitting still and stopping wriggling and bouncing and biting whenever I try to put a collar or harness on. I worked on making it clear nothing happened until she let me do it calmly, if need be we've been by the door coats on and every time she started I just straightened up and ignored until she settled (repeat about 30 times >:() but in the last few weeks she's just started to the point of responding to a verbal command to stop and sit still, and she's much easier to distract by singing or talking to her while I do something. Holding her attention used to be a nightmare if she was at all excited. Practicing lots and lots of sits outside by exciting things helped, just getting the idea that she can see something so exciting and just stay sitting and watching, but its taken months of practice and her maturing to get from minutes and minutes of persistence to get one sit, to now being able to mostly get a sit on request unless it's Really Exciting.
And I was over walking her to try and chill her out a bit. Being tired, wanting a poo, being bored, were all things that made her really out of her tree loopy (I'm sure I remember using the phrase squirrel on crack to describe her) and still make her a bit loopy now. A shorter walk followed by a problem solving toy and lots of chewing seemed to help more, and crating with a treat or chew when I needed a time out as well as when she did helped keep me sane. It was HARD, she had me in tears a few times, I have every sympathy with how you're feeling.
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Yes I went thru all this with Henry, close to re- homing him when he was six months old! He's now three and must easier and calmer!
One thing that helped me, along with changing his food, training, and time, was sending him to doggy day care one day a week! I got a well needed break and Henry had lots of fun! Do you know anyone who would take your pup for say a day a week, or even just for a walk? It helped me relax and recharge!