CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Londongirl on April 11, 2016, 11:32:18 AM
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I've started long line training to reinforce my whistle training for recall. Also, following the advice in Pippa Mattheson's Total Recall book, I've started having Henry on and off the normal lead during our walk, whereas before he would have spent most of the time off. I've been doing this for about a week and his recall off the lead has got a lot worse than when he was off all the time. He goes further and takes longer to come back. This morning he completely ignored me for a good five minutes when I was asking him to come back. He looked at me and went the other way, and if I moved towards him, he moved further away. I did my usual trick of walking off at a brisk pace, which normally has him scampering back - nothing. His recall hasn't been this bad since before I started the whistle training.
Is this because I've been having him on the lead more so he doesn't want to come back to me? I've been reinforcing 'check ins' so he gets a treat for showing up by my side, and letting him go again after a recall, not always putting him on the lead, so he shouldn't assume he's going on the lead every time I call him back.
Is this change a result of the new regime or just coincidence, especially as he's coming up to that difficult adolescent age? It's depressing to go backwards when his recall was getting so very good.
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I've got Total Recall and one bit of advice I find a bit contradictory. PM states that you should put your pup on, and let it off lead many times a walk.
But then she says that your recall signal should never be associated with anything negative. I'm sure that a dog would think being put back on a lead, when it has been happily running about, is negative.
I never blow my whistle when I want to put Millie back on her lead. She acsociates me taking her lead out with a tasty treat.
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I never use my recall to put him on the lead either. It's not so much the recall whistle he's ignoring, it's that he's not staying as close or paying as much attention to me as he was before I started this on-off lead thing. I could generally get him to me just with a call and a bit of enthusiasm (followed through with a reward), but that has disappeared in the last week.
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I just did Top Barks reliable recall, which meant Ben being on the longline all the time until he got it. I don't understand how it would work if they are off a lead and then don't come back when you call as that seems to be reinforcing the fact they don't have to come back every time, whereas if they are on the longline they do have come back to every call and after a while you can see the penny drop and not coming to you is no longer an option. You get that wonderful buzz when you blow the whistle or call and they just turn on a dime to get back to you with no hesitation :lol2:
One of the effects of this training we found is that when we did let Ben off, he didn't wander as far from us as he used to do and he also started checking in with us as turning to see where we were something he didn't do before. Good luck :luv:
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When Henry isn't on the lead I don't (yet) use my recall command (whistle) so he doesn't get a chance to ignore it, unless he's already on his way back, full pelt. The problem is his behaviour off the lead has got worse since I started this on-off thing as recommended in PM's book. We had the check-ins and him staying closer and coming galloping back when I called his name, which was lovely. I was all ready to start 'proofing' with the long line the situations where I know he doesn't listen.
I love letting him off the lead to run about and don't want to lose confidence to do that. He's been off lead since he was 12 week old. When you say you kept Ben on the long line all the time, do you mean for the entire walk?
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I just did Top Barks reliable recall, which meant Ben being on the longline all the time until he got it. I don't understand how it would work if they are off a lead and then don't come back when you call as that seems to be reinforcing the fact they don't have to come back every time, whereas if they are on the longline they do have come back to every call and after a while you can see the penny drop and not coming to you is no longer an option. You get that wonderful buzz when you blow the whistle or call and they just turn on a dime to get back to you with no hesitation :lol2:
One of the effects of this training we found is that when we did let Ben off, he didn't wander as far from us as he used to do and he also started checking in with us as turning to see where we were something he didn't do before. Good luck :luv:
(We've got two pretty similar threads here - I had a similar question earlier, maybe they can be merged?) Anyway - just a question , how long did this all take with Ben? My trainer suggested 1 year but to be honest, the thought of not letting him have a free run for a year seems tough, -his recall has been very good up until recently, but it is an age thing I guess. If the recall doesn't work, do you reel him in or what do you do? (That was the question on the other thread). At what point did you decide the recall was "good enough" ?
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I just did Top Barks reliable recall, which meant Ben being on the longline all the time until he got it. I don't understand how it would work if they are off a lead and then don't come back when you call as that seems to be reinforcing the fact they don't have to come back every time, whereas if they are on the longline they do have come back to every call and after a while you can see the penny drop and not coming to you is no longer an option. You get that wonderful buzz when you blow the whistle or call and they just turn on a dime to get back to you with no hesitation :lol2:
One of the effects of this training we found is that when we did let Ben off, he didn't wander as far from us as he used to do and he also started checking in with us as turning to see where we were something he didn't do before. Good luck :luv:
(We've got two pretty similar threads here - I had a similar question earlier, maybe they can be merged?) Anyway - just a question , how long did this all take with Ben? My trainer suggested 1 year but to be honest, the thought of not letting him have a free run for a year seems tough, -his recall has been very good up until recently, but it is an age thing I guess. If the recall doesn't work, do you reel him in or what do you do? (That was the question on the other thread). At what point did you decide the recall was "good enough" ?
A lot depends on how diligent you are, how firm you are/the level of tolerance you have and how consistent you are. Coral is now into her 5 month of being on a long line but its starting to pay off. Yesterday at training she only attempted to run off once and that was to free hunt within arms reach - to be fair, the ground was full of scent so it was unlikely she would get far!
I would recommend seeking the help of a professional trainer rather than trying to do this on your own - its so easy to think "well she started back towards me on the third whistle and theres lots of scent to distract her....." Having been to a number of group sessions I couldn't believe just how many excuses we all make for our dogs poor obedience - and thats what it is - me included!
Every time you let your dog free hunt or 'bog-off' it will set the learning process back by at least a week. Please dont worry about your dog not getting to 'free run' he's self serving/rewarding and disobedient - once he's learned a bit more impulse control and is more obedient his reward will be plenty of off lead time 😉 No one said having a dog wouldbe easy but for those of us that have dogs with a high prey drive/hunt instinct it can be very hard work......
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I just did Top Barks reliable recall, which meant Ben being on the longline all the time until he got it. I don't understand how it would work if they are off a lead and then don't come back when you call as that seems to be reinforcing the fact they don't have to come back every time, whereas if they are on the longline they do have come back to every call and after a while you can see the penny drop and not coming to you is no longer an option. You get that wonderful buzz when you blow the whistle or call and they just turn on a dime to get back to you with no hesitation :lol2:
One of the effects of this training we found is that when we did let Ben off, he didn't wander as far from us as he used to do and he also started checking in with us as turning to see where we were something he didn't do before. Good luck :luv:
(We've got two pretty similar threads here - I had a similar question earlier, maybe they can be merged?) Anyway - just a question , how long did this all take with Ben? My trainer suggested 1 year but to be honest, the thought of not letting him have a free run for a year seems tough, -his recall has been very good up until recently, but it is an age thing I guess. If the recall doesn't work, do you reel him in or what do you do? (That was the question on the other thread). At what point did you decide the recall was "good enough" ?
Hi - I responded to your other thread but posted this as a slightly separate issue, about his behaviour off-lead deteriorating since I started long lead training.
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Pearly - do you ever let Coral off the lead? Have you ever?
I'm not planning to work or show Henry or do trials. But I do want a dog I can trust off lead.
All of which is slightly off the point of my first question which was: is a sudden deterioration in his off-lead behaviour linked to me starting long line training and having him on and off the lead more often?
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I love letting him off the lead to run about and don't want to lose confidence to do that. He's been off lead since he was 12 week old. When you say you kept Ben on the long line all the time, do you mean for the entire walk?
Yes for some walks that meant the entire walk if we were in a situation where I would need a recall. I needed to do this for about a month in total. In order to use up excess energy I did more training and finding games e.g. I started giving at least one meal a day (dry food) thrown into the grass so he had to look for it which tried him out mentally. To be honest Ben was 6 when I started and I was so stressed by all the running off he used to do, looking for food, chasing birds and finding things to roll in that for me it was worth having on a longline and I knew it wouldn't be for ever. I was rewarded with a dog with a perfect recall who was a joy to take anywhere. Its so sad now that he is deaf (13 yrs old) that he no longer has any recall unless he his looking at me
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I love letting him off the lead to run about and don't want to lose confidence to do that. He's been off lead since he was 12 week old. When you say you kept Ben on the long line all the time, do you mean for the entire walk?
Yes for some walks that meant the entire walk if we were in a situation where I would need a recall. I needed to do this for about a month in total. In order to use up excess energy I did more training and finding games e.g. I started giving at least one meal a day (dry food) thrown into the grass so he had to look for it which tried him out mentally. To be honest Ben was 6 when I started and I was so stressed by all the running off he used to do, looking for food, chasing birds and finding things to roll in that for me it was worth having on a longline and I knew it wouldn't be for ever. I was rewarded with a dog with a perfect recall who was a joy to take anywhere. Its so sad now that he is deaf (13 yrs old) that he no longer has any recall unless he his looking at me
A month seems very reasonable, given we have the basics down.
For a spaniel, Henry is USELESS at sniffing things out. If I drop treats in the garden he never finds them. Sometimes it takes him half a minute to find one I've dropped half an inch from his feet!
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I love letting him off the lead to run about and don't want to lose confidence to do that. He's been off lead since he was 12 week old. When you say you kept Ben on the long line all the time, do you mean for the entire walk?
Yes for some walks that meant the entire walk if we were in a situation where I would need a recall. I needed to do this for about a month in total. In order to use up excess energy I did more training and finding games e.g. I started giving at least one meal a day (dry food) thrown into the grass so he had to look for it which tried him out mentally. To be honest Ben was 6 when I started and I was so stressed by all the running off he used to do, looking for food, chasing birds and finding things to roll in that for me it was worth having on a longline and I knew it wouldn't be for ever. I was rewarded with a dog with a perfect recall who was a joy to take anywhere. Its so sad now that he is deaf (13 yrs old) that he no longer has any recall unless he his looking at me
A month seems very reasonable, given we have the basics down.
For a spaniel, Henry is USELESS at sniffing things out. If I drop treats in the garden he never finds them. Sometimes it takes him half a minute to find one I've dropped half an inch from his feet!
I wouldn't worry about that !! ;) that does at least give you the option of being able to put the socks somewhere where he can't find them!!!!!😂😂 sorry about confusing your thread by the way (I'm a master at confusuon!). It does sound as if we're experiencing the same thing with Henry and Humphrey - (maybe its a complott!)😉
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Mysteriously, Henry can snuffle out a stray sock sooner than a piece of kibble.
We should DEFINTELY carry on comparing notes on our naughty boys. I'd say this thread is a sub-thread to yours. ;)
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👍
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I remember feeling really guilty when we had to use the lead more often but it's sometimes a necessity if you want the end results. As for why his behaviour has changed, I'd say it's just the Cocker cleverness; he has cottoned on to the fact that he now has to go back on his lead and (let's face it) he isn't going to like it as much as total freedom ;) There is also the possibility that this might have happened at this age anyway, without trying the long line as he could be starting to test the boundaries now he's an adolescent. It could be a coincidence?
In the end a totally reliable recall will be worth it as you will never have the heart stopping moment when he ignores your recall. I'd stick with it as it will be worth it.
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Pearly - do you ever let Coral off the lead? Have you ever?
I'm not planning to work or show Henry or do trials. But I do want a dog I can trust off lead.
All of which is slightly off the point of my first question which was: is a sudden deterioration in his off-lead behaviour linked to me starting long line training and having him on and off the lead more often?
As I've already written it really depends on your dog and how much prey drive/chase instinct he has plus you and how firm/consistent you are!
Coral was off lead with excellent recall up to 8.5 months old. She then discovered what the scent was associated to and also hit that "teenage" phase where she decided she didn't need me anymore! I have photos and video footage of her from 5 months of age performing pretty amazing retrieves and coming back every time on the whistle, but......
Dogs are born with working noses - it's how they locate Mum and milk to feed. Their eyesight develops next taking some time eg at 7 months old they are only just beginning to see "depth". Hearing develops later from 10 months onwards so while I had done a LOT of sit, stop, recall to the whistle as she got older I'm sure that sound changed, to her, plus the need to hunt overtook everything!
Has she been off lead? Yes from her first walk out at age 13 weeks (she's a rescue and had jabs later) to 8.5 months old, even then I tried a few times as I thought we'd cracked it but no......after watching her run free for 45 minutes on Christmas morning - in my dressing gown in the drizzle - across a 7 acre friend, bouncing off the hedges on both sides it was a decision not to let her off lead or long line again, until I know for certain the stop/recall is embedded.
Long line is not an extending / retracting lead, it's a long strip of canvas that allows your dog some freedom but also means you can reel them back in if needed and grab the end if they run off at high speed! Turner Richards sell good quality long lines.
Why have I gone to such lengths for such a long time? Coral is from trails lines and has a very high prey drive, it came as a complete shock to me the first time she ran off - having picked up a dummy to bring back to me, it was spat out and she stood like a meerkat tasting the air then went at high speed across a main road and two fields to put up about 50 pheasants - thing is, she'd never encountered a pheasant before and hasn't been up close to a living one since.
Coral is a chaser.
I have no choice if I want to be a responsible dog owner and have a well behaved dog I can trust, I have to put the time and effort in to do justice to this little girl.
Following feedback from training yesterday where the Trainer declared her to be a nice little dog and I'm not too much of a novice (!) we've been told to move up to the advanced class - there is no way Coral is steady on flush yet but by the end of summer training I can envisage that I will have a far more reliable dog who not only comes back when called but also stops when told. She won't be ready this season but then we have next summer to refine and enter working tests if we are both up to standard. I have no desire to enter trials.
It's worth the time and effort. I think I've spent the best part of 50 hours working on heel work alone! Yesterday she walked beautifully to heel, off lead and sat on the whistle.
Pearl - show type - only discovered she could chase in January this year....she and I have been working on the stop whistle since and her bottom now hits the ground so fast she sometimes slips on wet ground :005: she will be 5 on Sunday - it's never too late to train, just sometimes you have to use different incentives!
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Pearly - Thanks for the detailed reply, that's fascinating! Henry is a show cocker, no working lines at all so we may not encounter quite such a strong prey drive. But it's good to be prepared. It's also interesting about their hearing. Henry sometimes seems to have trouble locating the direction of my voice if he's a little way off.
I am using a Turner Richards long line already.
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Thanks from me too Jayne - very interesting!
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I remember feeling really guilty when we had to use the lead more often but it's sometimes a necessity if you want the end results. As for why his behaviour has changed, I'd say it's just the Cocker cleverness; he has cottoned on to the fact that he now has to go back on his lead and (let's face it) he isn't going to like it as much as total freedom ;) There is also the possibility that this might have happened at this age anyway, without trying the long line as he could be starting to test the boundaries now he's an adolescent. It could be a coincidence?
In the end a totally reliable recall will be worth it as you will never have the heart stopping moment when he ignores your recall. I'd stick with it as it will be worth it.
Thanks for this - I AM feeling guilty. And perhaps perversely, it feels like having him on the long line is exactly the opposite of what we've been trying to achieve with the recall training. I feel much better now!
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Pearly - Thanks for the detailed reply, that's fascinating! Henry is a show cocker, no working lines at all so we may not encounter quite such a strong prey drive. But it's good to be prepared. It's also interesting about their hearing. Henry sometimes seems to have trouble locating the direction of my voice if he's a little way off.
I am using a Turner Richards long line already.
I'm really impressed with the quality of their long lines - I'm assuming you know how to use it? I didn't - it took a Trainer to show me ph34r
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Pearly - Thanks for the detailed reply, that's fascinating! Henry is a show cocker, no working lines at all so we may not encounter quite such a strong prey drive. But it's good to be prepared. It's also interesting about their hearing. Henry sometimes seems to have trouble locating the direction of my voice if he's a little way off.
I am using a Turner Richards long line already.
I'm really impressed with the quality of their long lines - I'm assuming you know how to use it? I didn't - it took a Trainer to show me ph34r
I'm not sure I do!
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Although I could try my best to describe how to use the long line, there is no sustitute to attending a Trainer either in a group class or 1-2-1 session. While I think, from your posts, that the challenges you have are similar to those I've been working through with Coral - they may not be, I'd also urge caution that what works for one dog may not for another!
For Coral the highest reward is a retrieve, for Pearl it's a fuss or a treat!
The Kennecl Club have a list of accredited trainers in your area (assuming you are UK based)
Jayne
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Coral running free across a "7 acre friend" Pearly??! :005: :005: :005:
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Coral running free across a "7 acre friend" Pearly??! :005: :005: :005:
Oops! :005:
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TBH I don't think you're doing anything wrong - apart from not having a little more patience! Patience, patience is key. I see by your signature that Henry is just 7 months, still a young pupster with lots of growing up to do. The changes in the coming months as he matures a little may make the world of difference.
I'm very fortunate in that there are safe fields/woods (council owned) within a 15 minute walk where I can let Jack off for the duration of our outing and have done so since he was three months. I've found that his 'wandering off' has been much improved since he turned a year old and even better now that he's sixteen months. Yes, there have been a few OMG moments, but I rarely need a recall signal any more, as he's usually (though not always) within visual range and now prefers to stay relatively close. I worked a lot on calling his name rather than blowing a whistle and often change direction while encouraging him to follow (like heel walking but without a lead or long line). He soon got bored with having a succession of long treks in the opposite direction! This interspersed with 'hide and seek' games where I'd 'disappear' behind a tree ocassionally and wait for him to find me. All activities are reward based (lumps of cheese and cocktail sausages!) I think the initial slight panic when he realises I'm 'not there' helped/helps a lot too. Please note that all this was/is based on the confidence that (a) the area is safe and (b) improved response to calling his name and (c) his increasing unwillingness to be 'lost' for any length of time together with (d) his understanding of what 'another long slog back' means!
Whilst not a perfect recall scenario, I mention all the above in addition to the excellent earlier advice and merely as food for thought as something that worked for me/Jack. I'm also working my way through Total Recall, but have found it's become a bit redundant on our daily local walks mainly due to Jack's improvement (though I appreciate that he would still be unreliable in unfamiliar places, so am going to persevere).
Would be interesting to hear of Henry's progess, so best of luck and please keep us updated!
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Hi Barry. Here's the interesting thing - I did all the stuff you suggest here, hiding, rewarding check-ins, walking briskly the other way. And started the whistle training up to the point where I was still reinforcing it as he galloped back to me and using it as a cue on.h in very controlled situations. He was off lead for most of our walks, stayed close, checked in often, came back often with just a call of 'Henry, come!' Walks have been relaxing and enjoyable.
The only issue I had was that he would (and still does) disappear off if he sees a dog in the distance he wants to play with, and will not respond to any recall. So I decided it was time to get the last part of the recall sorted and started training with the long line, whistle and high value treats, recalling him back from dogs he was showing an interest in. Plus putting him on and off the lead on the regular part of our walks. And that's when I lost all the nice trotting close, checking in and coming when called when off leash. :huh:
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Yes, I know what you mean. TBH I don't think there's anything you can do in the short term, other than keep on doing what you're doing. Cockers, especially youngsters, can't get enough of anything that moves. Selective deafness goes hand in hand with OMG, got to check it out, it might be interesting and fun! See ya!
Henry is still very young, and just now finding his feet and discovering his independence. His recall will improve as he gets older and wiser. It's a balancing act it seems to me. Much depends I think on how much 'freedom' you're prepared to give him versus how much you want to train a good recall. Personally, my priority was for Jack to meet other dogs on his own terms - as many as possible when he was younger - so didn't worry about his supersonic departures. This wouldn't have happened so much with him straining on the end of a long line. During the past year, there's been only one incident with an over-exuberant GSD, but even this I put down to a learning experience for him. Can't have a wuss Cocker! By far the majority of the unknown dogs we've met or meet on our regular walks are friendly and well-socialised with many becoming old chums. Nevertheless, every new encounter is a different learning experience for him, which has got to be a good thing. Nowadays with a new dog he's a bit more laid back and tends to check them out from a distance then meet them halfway as it were, but he's still the friendly, exuberant chap he's always been.
If you can trust him to be out of sight for a bit and are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and tramp after him, I'd not worry over much. Go at Henry's pace and the recall will happen in the fullness of time. Otherwise the long line is the answer.
Hope all this rambling makes sense - and good luck!
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Thanks for that, Barry. What you describe is exactly how I've been doing things with Henry. He's very much a London dog - lots of parks, lots of dogs to meet and greet. He's free to dander around and I trust him not to disappear. We went to look at some boarding kennels recently and they said the London dogs were the happiest there as they thought nothing of becoming immediate best friends with a pack of dogs they'd never met before.
The only thing that worries me is the 'supersonic departures' - what a perfect description! Not because I am worried about Henry - he always turns back if the other dogs move off too far, and is submissive when he gets to the other dogs. But I can see it bothers some owners, and their dogs, to have a bouncing Cocker barrelling towards them full pelt, with me debating whether to hold my ground until he comes back or tramp after him.
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But I can see it bothers some owners, and their dogs, to have a bouncing Cocker barrelling towards them full pelt, with me debating whether to hold my ground until he comes back or tramp after him.
I think that is the key point. Somebody might be out with a reactive dog and there's nothing worse than an off lead dog appearing out of the blue if that's the case. Please don't think I'm having a go. Murphy used to run up to every dog on the field when he was a pup and got a few good tellings off.
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But I can see it bothers some owners, and their dogs, to have a bouncing Cocker barrelling towards them full pelt, with me debating whether to hold my ground until he comes back or tramp after him.
I think that is the key point. Somebody might be out with a reactive dog and there's nothing worse than an off lead dog appearing out of the blue if that's the case. Please don't think I'm having a go. Murphy used to run up to every dog on the field when he was a pup and got a few good tellings off.
That's it exactly - I don't want to cause unnecessary stress to other owners, or their dogs. I think I will just carry on as I am now - putting him on the long leash and practicing recall in the areas I know he is mostly likely to go running off, and allowing him off and reinforcing the nice behaviours we've already established when he's more focused on me.
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But I can see it bothers some owners, and their dogs, to have a bouncing Cocker barrelling towards them full pelt, with me debating whether to hold my ground until he comes back or tramp after him.
I think that is the key point. Somebody might be out with a reactive dog and there's nothing worse than an off lead dog appearing out of the blue if that's the case. Please don't think I'm having a go. Murphy used to run up to every dog on the field when he was a pup and got a few good tellings off.
You're absolutely right, of course. I didn't mean to imply that I give Jack a free reign to do whatever he pleases. I'm sorry if that's how it came across, but especially with youngsters and free-running recall training, the inevitable grouchy dog is bound to appear sooner or later, even with the best intentions/precautions. Just trying to offer some reassurance that 'a few good tellings off' is no bad thing and part of growing up (just like kids)!
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Sorry, but I have to disgree with the statement 'a few good tellings off' is a good thing. It most certainly isn't, for either dog. It's like someone running up behind you, getting into your personal space and screaming in your face. Dogs need their own space too.
The dog doing the telling off is practicing the behaviour which may become ingrained and repeated. After all, he's telling the other dog he doesn't like it. The dog on the receiving end can become more and more fearful then also starts to respond in the same way as a way of protecting itself.
I now know this from experience. Off lead dogs running up to us turn Maddie into a fearful wreck.
You may be lucky and have a dog that doesn't mind being growled at, but cockers are sensitive souls. It's good if they have doggy friends whom they know well, but I am really against letting a dog run over to an unknown dog. Sorry for the rant!
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I've written quite a lot on this thread already but here's my view on puppy v adult dog socialisation
It's important for a pup to socialise not only to learn bite inhibition as a very young pup / litter mate but also to start to learn other dogs "body language/behaviour signals" so they learn to respond correctly and in turn educate other dogs.
By the time they are teething (c 6 months) they lose their "puppy licence" and you start to run the risk that other dogs will be less tolerant. It's at this point I will stop socialising my dogs in future but to be fair we have 3 cockers so they have plenty of canine comaonionship at home - that isn't always a good thing either, Monday night Pearl nipped Coral over a bag of food shopping, Coral bit Pearl back but harder.....she's now, rightly, wary and appears to have learnt a lesson until the next bag event....
Adult dogs do not need to be socialised. I'm going to confess that for a long time I held the view that all dogs should get along and play together but that was really to satisfy my need to prove to myself (and probably others) that I have a nice, well behaved, can be taken anywhere, dog! It wasn't about what was right for my dog.....
I take the dogs training. Group training means taking it in turns to work/train your dog - the benefit is that as a dog handler I learn from watching others with their dogs as much as taking part myself. The dogs never get to meet, not even the odd sniff. One of the first exercises is to teach the dog not to interact with other dogs - as I've previously said, on a shoot you would be asked to leave if your dog interfered with another.
I guess over 5 years I've become more dog savvy - a lot of which is due to this forum ;) and learnt that the need to have my dog being all cute and sweetly playing with another dog is about satisfying my needs not the dogs and by letting happen I run the risk of either ending up with a dog on the receiving end of an attack or causing another dog to become so frightened it is fear reactive.
We have an area locally where a friend was walking their Jack Russell and a young girl with a large dog asked if they could come over to meet and let the dogs say hello - the result was a trip to the vets for puncture wounds on the Jack Russell and the girl (late teens he thinks) was apologetic saying "he's never done that before"......
Long lines are good. It's paying off with Coral, who on Sunday was perfect at training and off lead - in an open field - and had brilliant recall. This to he extent that we have now moved up to the advanced class. Last nights training was a whole different affair, had she not been on a longline I'm certain I'd have been watching a black streak heading across 2 fields to the geese she heard! It is a long slow process, made more so as she has such a high prey drive but the end result will be so worth all the effort (or so I keep telling myself ph34r)
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Daisy is fear aggressive and very reactive. I need to manage her walks and keep an eye out for dogs on the loose, so to speak. Most folk I meet are now aware that she has issues (not her fault, people made her that way) but one guy has a black lab that walks off lead all the time and charges over to her, and it sets her off completely. I have been polite, grumpy and downright rude to this numpty, but I cannot get it through to him, that because his dog 'wants to play' it does not mean my wee girl does. I do take Daisy to classes when possible, and we have a spot at the door so we can nip out for 5 mins when it gets too much for her. I am well aware of her limitations, and with careful and slow introductions she now has two dog friends, and will happily meet them. So this big long waffle was just to say thank you to those of you who are kind and considerate, when you meet people like Daisy and I out on walks. Thank you. x
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Can I say a big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread? It's so helpful to get views from both sides of the fence - as puppy owners and owners of older dogs. I have been conscious that Henry is now nearly fully grown and that means some of his more puppyish behaviour is no longer acceptable. It's not something that's really mentioned when we are encouraged to socialise our puppies.
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Can I say a big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread? It's so helpful to get views from both sides of the fence - as puppy owners and owners of older dogs. I have been conscious that Henry is now nearly fully grown and that means some of his more puppyish behaviour is no longer acceptable. It's not something that's really mentioned when we are encouraged to socialise our puppies.
Bit off thread still but, there is a view that socialisation has been misunderstood and that includes myself! A few years ago we were told to let our puppies socialise with lots of dogs, so we just let them off the lead to say hello. We now know the socialisation needs to be controlled and a positive experience for the dog, checking that the other dog is calm and friendly before you approach. It's all a learning curve!!
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It's been a real learning curve for all of us this cocker ownership ;) I totally agree with your point, Londongirl, re being encouraged to socialise our pups and we were exactly the same as you in everything we did, as I said earlier. Bonnie was off lead from the beginning but soon realising Bonnie was a pest to other dogs.It's ok for puppy trainers to drill socialising our pups into us (as ours did!) but thought really should be given to the dogs that our puppies want to socialise with. Our trainer never advised this was an issue. Thankfully, like you, we took our own steps to stop this and Bonnie was put on lead walks for a long time unless there were no other dogs in sight at all. Des (OH) used to take her to woods that were always empty to still give her a good off lead run with no fear of other dogs. I used to walk her in more public places so most of my walks with her as a pup were on lead but let off for short times if it was totally clear. Bonnie now has great recall and very little interest in other dogs but she's not anti social and does occasionally have a good old play with one or two dogs who we meet. She also has no problem being put back on lead at any time and will come and sit for her lead to be clipped on, even if I've only just let her off. She learnt this really quickly but I do admit to giving treats every time she was put on lead so she has always associated the lead going on as a good thing.
Good luck with all the training. We've all been there and in the end you will still have a sociable dog but you will also have a totally reliable dog who isn't going to upset or scare other dogs. It's about respecting other people and their dogs and is as important as socialisation xx
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This has been an interesting thread and most has been said but I just wanted mention what happened yesterday as I do think its relevant. I mentioned before that our trainer organizes walks, - really just to help the dogs socialize, but its "controlled".Yesterda afternoon someone brought along a rescue mongrel who clearly had issues and was snarling and barking non stop, which naturally set most of the others off. Our trainer, who knows Humphrey's placid nature, suggested trying him and the mongrel to run free first and then see what happened - Humph' was acting as mediator. I was a bit apprehensive, there were no other dogs there that Humphrey knew (the group tends to be changing constantly) but trust this chap wholeheartedly, so we gave it a go. The mongrel snarled and barked, Humphrey, as expected, gave him the canine version of two fingers and trotted off to look for someone else to play with. Taking his lead, the other dogs followed suit and very soon the mongrel, realizing it wasn't having any effect, gave up. There were a couple of small barking sessions but after an hours walk, the newcomer was behaving really well. My point is, that in a controlled environment, many (obviously not all) of these fear agression issues can be dealt with, it just needs someone who can "read" the dogs to lead the way, but just putting two strange dogs together and expecting them to sort it out, isn't probably the wisest way to go.
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It's really good that Humphrey behaves appropriately, giving out calming signals and can be used as a stooge dog. He must be 'bomb-proof!' ;)
I wish we had group walks round here, it's just what Maddie needs. :'(
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Well, have just been for a walk with a friend at a new park and his recall was AWFUL. About 50%, whereas before it was 95%, the 5% being when he was playing with another dog. I had to go retrieve him several times, something I only do as a last resort as I can usually get him to come to me. Something has definitely happened and it may just be his age (8 months next week). He has started not coming in from the garden when called too. >:D >:D >:D
Back to basics for me. Time to find a new tasty treat and work on getting back the spin on his heels to 'come' that we had two weeks ago. And make good use of that long line.
Well done Humphrey for being a model student! My friends think Henry is my comeuppance for having two very well behaved kids that are now very mellow teenagers!
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More than likely age and will get worse before better - long line, lead only and that includes your garden. It's a pest but I really wish I'd been firmer and more consistent with Coral as it will be a long process this summer to "bring her back in".
We now have a restricted area in the garden and Coral still goes out on the lead. On a plus note my back lawn is starting to recover ph34r
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Just a thought: has there been a change in his hearing? My Darcey had perfect recall until a few months ago, it took me a while to realise how deaf she had become when during a "wait" game indoors she didn't hear me call her name quite loudly from three feet away behind an open door (and she knew there was cheese in the offing if she waited for the call!)
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It's really good that Humphrey behaves appropriately, giving out calming signals and can be used as a stooge dog. He must be 'bomb-proof!' ;)
I wish we had group walks round here, it's just what Maddie needs. :'(
Couldn't you try and organize something yourself? Ours are organized by our trainer but they're not part of the training - he does it as an extra and its open to anyone. Perhaps if you could find another couple of people who'd be interested and then look for a local trainer who'd be willing to walk with you for say an hour in the week. We pay him 5 euros each but actually its a doddle for him, he walks his own dog, gets cash in hand from us and he's got no overheads as such, so its a win/win situation. ;)
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It's really good that Humphrey behaves appropriately, giving out calming signals and can be used as a stooge dog. He must be 'bomb-proof!' ;)
I wish we had group walks round here, it's just what Maddie needs. :'(
Couldn't you try and organize something yourself? Ours are organized by our trainer but they're not part of the training - he does it as an extra and its open to anyone. Perhaps if you could find another couple of people who'd be interested and then look for a local trainer who'd be willing to walk with you for say an hour in the week. We pay him 5 euros each but actually its a doddle for him, he walks his own dog, gets cash in hand from us and he's got no overheads as such, so its a win/win situation. ;)
Or organise a COL meet ;)
There is light at the end of the tunnel - another great session this evening with only a couple of attempts to scarper! That in an area with pheasants - lots of scent, lots of sound and a couple flying over head :D
Gromit - both dogs are 7-8 months old and Coral is now 15 months but you are right with regard to hearing, it's still developing in our dogs and does explain some of the "deafness" but I'm afraid most of it is adolescence and sheer naughtiness (in Coral's case :shades:)
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Oh, Henry hears me alright. Looks right at me with that 'Yeah, so what?' look and carries on with what he was doing. Or just sits and waits to see what I'm gonna do about it. Little monkey.
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It's really good that Humphrey behaves appropriately, giving out calming signals and can be used as a stooge dog. He must be 'bomb-proof!' ;)
I wish we had group walks round here, it's just what Maddie needs. :'(
Couldn't you try and organize something yourself? Ours are organized by our trainer but they're not part of the training - he does it as an extra and its open to anyone. Perhaps if you could find another couple of people who'd be interested and then look for a local trainer who'd be willing to walk with you for say an hour in the week. We pay him 5 euros each but actually its a doddle for him, he walks his own dog, gets cash in hand from us and he's got no overheads as such, so its a win/win situation. ;)
I don't know that many people with dogs and I can't see our trainer wanting to be involved as she only works part time and has a young family. We do ok really but can't make any further progress until we start getting closer to other dogs. Hey ho! ;)
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Update on the black flash ph34r
She ha spent the morning in the garden either on the long line unattached or no lead/line i.e. If she legged it I'd have no chance of catching her! The remarkable bit is there is no barrier between the garden and the 7 acre field (no friends Emma ;)) just 2 strands of barbed wire.....not once has she even attempted to run off, not even when the pheasants have been calling..... :angel: unlike Pearl, 5 today who has bogged off 3 times and had to be "fetched" out of the field >:D
Coral is 15 months old this week
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Good girl, Coral! And happy birthday to Pearl who is having herself some fun. ;)
We've started working with the long line and I'm quite enjoying it as it makes me more relaxed. It also means I can take him places I normally wouldn't, so he's getting more variety in his walks.
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After a fortninght of long line, we're the same now, - it was just a matter of getting used to it but I also feel we're making progress. I let the lead go a lot of the time and Humph' potters along dragging it behind and occasionally I tread on the end, just to remind him how big his radius is. OH keeps laughing at me, as I get panicky if anything drives past and race to wind the lead up - I remember watching a film centuries ago about Isadora Duncan who was strangled when her long scarf got wound round the wheels of a car!! On the whole though, despite my initial reservations, I think it was a good move and, as Henry's still a bit younger, you'll probably see quicker results!
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Have to say that between 1 and 2 years old, Bosley's recall was sometimes intermittent - his unfortunately meant he wouldn't go back onlead so I ended up with him running round the block off the park until he wanted to come in - was a nightmare for a while then it sort of stopped (in his case I wonder if it was because he had an enforced period onlead after his eye op plus it started when I began using a head collar then became habitual as I'd transferred him to a harness).
Wilf's recall was also intermittent age 7 months for a few months and while I used a longline if I walked beyond the park I tended to play games and do basic training which helped - partly as it was he was becoming more independent and I needed to reinforce our bond, which I did and it helped immensely.
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Thanks, PennyB. It's reassuring to know this is something to be expected. I have gone back to basics on the training and am teaching him fetch (whereas previously he just wanted to keep!) and other tricks like putting his nose into my hand. I'm sure it all helps to keep us bonded.