CockersOnline Forum

Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Curtisio on August 02, 2005, 03:10:45 PM

Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Curtisio on August 02, 2005, 03:10:45 PM
I believe from Sue (Dunton4) that it was Jane S has said in the past 'that if you go back far enough all cockers are related'

Well, It looks like they are.

After about a months research and loads of help from you guys, I have compiled one single tree which has all of those who have posted their cockers pedigrees to me on it.

The Parti and Working trees linked a few weeks ago - and so did the Solid and Parti trees - but I didn't notice until today, when I was double checking that their were no incorrect repeated names on the solid tree. When I came accross ' Colour Me Blue Of Classicway And Quettadene' who appears on both Solid and Parti trees.

So now there is one single tree... (attached) Unless I've made a huge b@lls up  :unsure:  :lol:

Which  includes...

ACORAH Doegun Phil ~ Acorah
ALFIE Rosbercon Starblazer ~ Suki1964
BAILEY Barrondon Golden Nugget ~ Dianne32
BAILEY Whinburn Double Top ~ Elisa
BELLA Jayzander Jam Sandwich ~ ~Jilly~
BUDDY Jolandene Blazing Star (parti/working)~ annette
BUTTY Lynwater Buttons ~ Gilly
CHARLIE Abilou Starlight of Lunetta ~ Flossysmum
CRYSTAL Molkara Elise ~ Emily
FLOSSY Lourisma Lunetta ~ Flossysmum
JURRA Dragonmead Kilmalcolm ~ taliska
KYRO Chavez Stictly Country ~ Curtisio
LIBBY Dragonmead Blue Princess ~ Stueymac
MIA Innocent Beliefs ~ PandaUK
MIKEY Ruscoe Raven (working) ~ miche
MOLO Islanza Muscadet ~ IWLass
PEPSI Wensum Prada ~ LoveCatz
RUBEN Ryanside Bacchus The God ~ Gill66
SWEEP Kenwu Blue Sweep ~ Stueymac
TALISKA Sandvika Taliska ~ taliska
TILLY Lujesa Jodeci ~ Dunton 4
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Jane S on August 02, 2005, 11:00:35 PM
Quote
I believe from Sue (Dunton4) that it was Jane S has said in the past 'that if you go back far enough all cockers are related'

If you go back even further, you're supposed to be able to trace all Cockers back to one dog, Obo (born in the 1870s) who was the predecessor of all modern day Cockers (not that he resembled what we think of as a Cocker as he was very long & low to the ground)

Jane
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: taliska on August 03, 2005, 03:41:01 PM
thanks again for doing all this I find it fasinating, I'm not sure how far you can go with it but it would be great to fill in more of the gaps, I know a lot of blue roans come from the bitcon kenel, though I seem to recall the "of ware" being one of the earliest, it would be good to trace back to the "of ware" was it Tracy Witch of Ware that won crufts back in late 20's or am I talking rubbish.   ;)
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Curtisio on August 03, 2005, 03:52:46 PM
Quote
thanks again for doing all this I find it fasinating, I'm not sure how far you can go with it but it would be great to fill in more of the gaps, I know a lot of blue roans come from the bitcon kenel, though I seem to recall the "of ware" being one of the earliest, it would be good to trace back to the "of ware" was it Tracy Witch of Ware that won crufts back in late 20's or am I talking rubbish.   ;)
[snapback]139322[/snapback]

'Tracy Witch of Ware' was in 1948 & 1950 and 'LUCKYSTAR OF WARE' in 30 & 31.

It would be good to fill in more gaps, so if anyone has any of them, PM me and I'll add them in... :D
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: *Jay* on August 03, 2005, 06:04:27 PM
I've just got round to tracing Disneys ancestors for putting into my database. His G G G Grandad is Sh Ch Bitcon Troubador and  from him I have got as far back as the 'of Wares'. Unfortunately, google won't allow me to go back any further so I'm now moving on to Lynwater Tiger Lilly ;)
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Penel on August 03, 2005, 09:29:58 PM
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(not that he resembled what we think of as a Cocker as he was very long & low to the ground)

like a working cocker then ?
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Jane S on August 03, 2005, 10:26:21 PM
No nothing like a Working Cocker -he was 10" high with very short legs :lol: If anything, he looked more Sussex Spaniel which is not surprising as I think one of his parents was a Sussex

Jane
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Magic Star on August 03, 2005, 11:07:27 PM
Indie along woth most blue roans has Bitcom in her ped, heres hers if it helps you :)

Heres Indies

SC CH/ IR SH CH WILHOLME MYSTIC MEMORY OF WILMERELLA
MOSSDEW MURPHY'S LAW
BITCOM DARK ANGEL
SC CH CILLEINE ECHELON
WILHOLME WEATHERGIRL OF MOSSDEW
SH CH BITCOM TROUBADOR
BITCOM BLUE MAGIC
HIGHTREES SWEET TALK OF LOCHRANZA
STYVEHALE STARDEW OF CILLEINE
SH CH DEARNWOOD STAR VENTURE
WILHOLME WALKING IN RYTHMN
MISTFALL MEDDLER
SH CH BITCOM MOONLIGHT
OUIANE SILVER BUCK
SH CH BITCOM SHY TALK
CH SCOLYS STARDUSTER
HIGHTREES NONE SWEETER
STYVECHALE STORMCLOUD
SH CH STYVECHALE STARTIME
SH CH LEABANK LEVITY
SCOLYS SILVER CYGNET
SH CH WILHOLME WRANGLER
RIVERMART KISMET OF WILHOLME
BITCON SILBER REBEL
SC CH MISFALL MOD INDIGO
BITCON AFTER DARK
BITCOM BLUE CASCADE
DAN CH OUIANE HALF A DOLLAR
OUIANE WELCOMR
MISTFALL MEDDLER
BITCOM ARTISTS MODEL

MUMS SIDE

JASMIN LUCKY STAR
CH WILMERELLA KINGS LEGEND
PRINCESS TANYA
SH CH PALACECRAIG GO WEST
WILHOLME SOURCERESS OF WILMERELLA
CHARTERWOOD OTIS
PRINCESS SHERRY
GLOWHILL APOLLO SEVEN
PALACECRAIG BE FAIR
SH CH BLUE DEVIL OF WILHOLME
WILHOLME WEATHER THE STORM
TAVIN COOL MIST AT CHARTERWOOD
CHARTERWOOD ORCHID
CHOYA CAPTION
CYNDI BLACK MAGIC BORKLUND
SH CH DEARNEWOOD STAR VENTURE
GLOWHILL GALAXY
PALACECRAIG VAGABOND
PALACECRAIG TOUCH AND GO
WILHOLME WIDE BOY
SAPHIRE GIRL
SH CH WILHOLME WRANGLER
WILHOLME WISPA
LYNWATER SULTAN AT TAVIN
TAVIN SUMMER FLOWER
TOBY MIDNIGHT RUNNER OF CHARTERWOOD
CHARTERWOOD ORANGE LADY
JIMISSON GREASEPOINT
SHEREE SOLITAIR
RISK OF KNOWLEMERE
COCHAN OF BORTH

Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Penel on August 04, 2005, 09:35:19 AM
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No nothing like a Working Cocker -he was 10" high with very short legs

erm lots of working cockers look like that !!!!!  Hattie is quite short, with short legs and a long body !!!  there's one that lives near here too - he looks like a Sussex spaniel, but smaller head, and he's black and white.
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Jane S on August 04, 2005, 11:55:57 AM
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..erm lots of working cockers look like that !!!!!  Hattie is quite short, with short legs and a long body !!!  there's one that lives near here too - he looks like a Sussex spaniel, but smaller head, and he's black and white.
[snapback]139433[/snapback]
I'll see if I can find a photo of Obo & post it here for you to see. Are there really 10" Working Cockers around? Makes a mockery of the claim that the show Cockers have got too tiny to work if there are :lol:

Jane
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Curtisio on August 04, 2005, 02:49:35 PM
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Indie along woth most blue roans has Bitcom in her ped, heres hers if it helps you :)

[snapback]139418[/snapback]

What is Indie posh name?
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Babylonian on August 04, 2005, 06:06:12 PM
Quote
Quote
No nothing like a Working Cocker -he was 10" high with very short legs

erm lots of working cockers look like that !!!!!  Hattie is quite short, with short legs and a long body !!!  there's one that lives near here too - he looks like a Sussex spaniel, but smaller head, and he's black and white.
[snapback]139433[/snapback]

Very long bodied working cocker here too!  :lol:
Someone remarked to my husband that "your spaniel is very long",
Ron replied jokingly "Yes, he's half sausage dog!",
the woman said "Ohh never mind, he's still a lovely dog!"...
  :lol:
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Penel on August 04, 2005, 06:17:49 PM
Quote
Makes a mockery of the claim that the show Cockers have got too tiny to work if there are 

some working folk like them small - they can get under stuff more easily !!!  :lol:   I think the abundance of coat is more likely a reason why show cockers aren't worked ...
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: *-Nikki-* on August 04, 2005, 06:25:54 PM
Quote
Quote
..erm lots of working cockers look like that !!!!!  Hattie is quite short, with short legs and a long body !!!  there's one that lives near here too - he looks like a Sussex spaniel, but smaller head, and he's black and white.
[snapback]139433[/snapback]
I'll see if I can find a photo of Obo & post it here for you to see. Are there really 10" Working Cockers around? Makes a mockery of the claim that the show Cockers have got too tiny to work if there are :lol:

Jane
[snapback]139450[/snapback]

Would love to see a pic, Jane ;) . I'm sure it will be very interesting :) !
I was under the impression that working folk liked their cockers big too :unsure: …as the ‘scan man’ wanted a cocker 2 work of us because our Teen is a big girl :lol:  :blink: .  
Nikki x
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Jane S on August 04, 2005, 11:09:36 PM
Quote
Would love to see a pic, Jane ;) . I'm sure it will be very interesting :) !
[snapback]139501[/snapback]
I've found a pic in Peggy Grayson's book but it's very small & not very clear so will probably not scan well but I'll have a go tomorrow. I think Working Cockers vary in size as much as their show brethren but it's an oft repeated criticism that modern show Cockers have got too small etc etc (the implication being this means they could not work, forgetting about the coat for the moment which can alway be cut off ;)) but if some working owners actually prefer a small dog in some situations, then it can't affect their working ability that much :) It's interesting looking at old photos of Cockers, seeing how they went from these very small short legged dogs in the late 19th Century to much longer legged dogs in the 1920s & 30s (before the breed split into two types) - well, interesting to me anyway :lol:

Jane
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Magic Star on August 05, 2005, 12:10:31 AM
Quote
Quote
Indie along woth most blue roans has Bitcom in her ped, heres hers if it helps you :)

[snapback]139418[/snapback]

What is Indie posh name?
[snapback]139466[/snapback]

 

Indies posh name is "Beaumaris Bewitched" its not prefixed with anything, except when shes naughty :lol:
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Colin on August 05, 2005, 12:11:11 AM
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It's interesting looking at old photos of Cockers, seeing how they went from these very small short legged dogs in the late 19th Century to much longer legged dogs in the 1920s & 30s (before the breed split into two types) - well, interesting to me anyway :lol:

I find it really interesting too. :D

A google search turned up this pic of Obo - the same pic is in the George Caddy book.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/jimmyquiff/Misc/Obo.jpg)

He looks like a Sussex Spaniel to me.

This link shows a pic of his great grandson Obo 2 who is apparently the forerunner of the American Cocker.

http://www.showdogs.co.za/infobase/breedno...evelopment.html (http://www.showdogs.co.za/infobase/breednotes/americancocker/infobase_breednotes_americancocker_development.html)

I'm no expert but the modern Cocker looks to have a healthier construction to me than some of the ones you see in the really old photos - their long backs seem to really dip down in the middle and their legs look a bit too short to support such chunky bodies, they all seem to be bum-high too.
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Gilly on August 05, 2005, 12:31:27 AM
Plus he looks like he's got 5 legs  :ph34r:
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Magic Star on August 05, 2005, 12:35:26 AM
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Plus he looks like he's got 5 legs  :ph34r:
[snapback]139566[/snapback]


 :lol:
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Colin on August 05, 2005, 12:42:52 AM
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Plus he looks like he's got 5 legs  :ph34r:
[snapback]139566[/snapback]

 :lol: Check out page 14 in the Caddy book - most of the Cocker boys seemed to have 5 legs back then. :unsure: Maybe that's the real reason why they were bred to have more coat - to spare the owner's blushes as they jiggled their way round the show ring. :D
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Luvly on August 05, 2005, 01:02:02 AM
 ;)
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Mike on August 05, 2005, 09:42:46 AM
Look at those little legs!  :D

So if the legs of English cockers used to be that short - in comparison to more recent cockers... I'm just wondering when the official breed standard for cockers was introduced as things have certainly changed? I'm sure I could Google and find out the info myself but I know how much you enjoy talking about cocker history Jane  :D
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: Jane S on August 05, 2005, 04:43:59 PM
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I'm sure I could Google and find out the info myself but I know how much you enjoy talking about cocker history Jane  :D
[snapback]139589[/snapback]
Thanks Mike :lol: I think the first breed standard came with the founding of the Cocker Spaniel Club in the early 1900s although it wasn't called a breed standard then but a "description of particulars". There was no mention of height in this standard, just that weight should be 25lbs. At this time, it seems there was a right old battle going on between those that thought Cockers should be long & stumpy legged & those that thought this build wasn't right for an active, sporting dog. The change away from the very small, low dogs came gradually but apparently one bitch, Jetsam Bowdler was very influential as she was the longer legged type & once H S Lloyd's father gave her the top award at Crufts, others started to go for the taller dogs too. The Breed Standard has changed a few times over the years but height wasn't mentioned until I think sometime in the 1960s (prior to that only weight was given, being 25lb to 28lbs at that time, later increased to 28-32lbs as it stands now). In the early 80s, the KC standardised all the breed standards to their current format (much blander than that first "standard") & there haven't been any changes since then (apart from a clause added re undocked tails). Sorry if this sounds a bit vague - I still can't get at all my books at the moment ;)

Jane
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: workingcockers on August 07, 2005, 08:29:10 PM
Reckon mine are the same height as show cockers with similar body propotions - maybe a tad longer in loin but not like a sausage dog. But then my eye goes for proportions and I retain a pup that is pleasing to me alround and I have probs finding stud dogs that I like for all therequirements I want. I dont know how on earth a 10" cocker could carry an adult hare over a reasonable distance :unsure:
Title: They're All Related...
Post by: workingcockers on August 07, 2005, 10:11:40 PM
I have put a show and working comparison couple of pics up on my acount with Photobox - took Stellas pic tonight  - its not too good but she did her best!!

Kirsten's cockers (http://www.photobox.co.uk/album/1663378)