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Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Cazza_1978 on October 13, 2005, 11:55:15 AM

Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Cazza_1978 on October 13, 2005, 11:55:15 AM: Hi

Can anyone give me advice on breeding my Blue Roan with a Solid cocker.

are there any reason this would not be advised?

The owner of the solid cocker stud has also given me details of another breeder with parti colour studs which I am waiting for her to call me back.

thanks
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: bluegirl on October 13, 2005, 12:22:58 PM: I was told you do not breed a solid with roans.But as far as I am aware you can breed a roan with a parti colour.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: DIANNE32 on October 13, 2005, 12:31:37 PM: :) Hi i was also told you cant breed a roan with a solid dont know the reason why though you would have to contact a breeder about this. Sorry i cant help :)
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Gilly on October 13, 2005, 12:54:39 PM: To be perfectly homest I think you need to do ALOT more research if your looking at breeding your parti-colour with a solid ;)

Firstly you need to contact your breeder and let her access your bitch. The you need to research the pedigree and then ask your breeder regarding a suitable stud dog, it doesn't work that you just use ANY stud dog just becasue he's a Cocker. You then need to have your bitch health tested and then MINIMUM eye tested under the KC/BVA eye scheme or preferably Optigen. The stud dog would also need ot be eye tested and an excellent example of the breed. To be perfectly honest there is NO point in breeding if you are not going to do it properly, there is no point breeding to produce "average" puppies you want to breed the best possible for type and temperament. Does your bitch have an excellent temperament??

You also need to ask yourself why you want to breed? Breeding is an emotional rollercoaster and not for the faint-hearted. You MUST be 100% committed to the bitch and her puppies for 8 weeks solid and also for the rest of the lives of the puppies you produce.

Karen: a Roan IS a Particolour ;)
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 13, 2005, 04:09:57 PM: Just to add to the advice above, if you have a show-type Cocker then generally solids & particolours are kept separate & not bred together but the situation is different with Working Cockers where the colours are frequently mixed together (colour not being particularly relevant if aiming to produce good working dogs). If you have a show-type Cocker, then you need to ask yourself why you are considering mating a solid dog to your blue bitch. Do you have a specific aim in mind ie does this solid dog offer your bitch something that a good particolour dog could not? Have you researched your bitch's pedigree and the potential stud dog's? Do you understand enough about genetics to know what colours the puppies would be? Many people would think that you would get some solid puppies and some particolour puppies from such a mating but in all likelihood, the puppies will all be solids possibly with "mismarkings" (patches of white on perhaps the face or feet, contrary to the Breed Standard for solid Cockers). The only exception would be if the solid dog has some particolour ancestry & carries the particolour gene (research of the pedigree will reveal if this is possible).

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: lyn on October 13, 2005, 08:49:53 PM: i think you would be better leaving the breeding to experts who know what they are doing there are so many dogs in rescue or being pts because people don't understand whats involved and mate dogs that have temperament problems so creating more dogs with the same probs.it's not fair on the puppies.also think if you bred the dogs and say for instance out of a litter of six three were returned to you within three years would you be able to care for them.
i am not saying this would be the case with you just that there are so many people who want to breed from their pets and really do not know whats involved( all the hard work and expense)why not just enjoy your dog as a pet.your life would be much easier
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Cazza_1978 on October 14, 2005, 12:18:01 AM: Thanks for all the replies!

I am in the process of doing all the research that I can and I am well aware of the fact that "not any stud will do".

I dont mean to sound horrible but I have posted twice on here for some advice and both times feel like I have been lectured. I am not about to jump into this without doing all the nessecery research and ensuring I am 110% sure that I will be doing the right thing for my bitch as well as any puppies that would result.

I can appreciate that some of you are only trying to help but I thought that posting on here I would get some nice friendly advice on where to get the relevent information that I have asked for.

I hope no one takes this post the wrong way I am grateful for the advice that has been posted just dont think I need the lectures to go with it.

My breeder has already outlined the fact that you can basically rule out 5 months off the year in which you get bitch mated. She had her pet mated and was in the same situation as I am in at the moment on trying to find out as much about the whole process as I am.

As far as my bitches temprement she has a wonderful temprement. I have also been told that she is from a "Good" pedigree by someone who shows cockers.

I have spoken to my vet about the tests that will be required also and he does the eye tests.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Cayley on October 14, 2005, 09:03:56 AM: What you might like to do is search the net to see if you can find pictures of the dogs in your girl's pedigree, that way you'll be able to see what colours crop up quite often and whether there's a few one off colours in there. If nothing else it's interesting seeing your dogs ancestors :D .
I may be wrong but I think solids are only bred to partis when they feel the the colour in parti's has become to diluted e.g. an orange roan to a gold, I could be completely wrong though.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 14, 2005, 09:31:55 AM: Cazza, I'm sure no one intended to lecture you but you have to realise this forum is read by many, many people so it's important we get the "responsible breeding" message across loud and clear. You didn't give much info in your initial post so it wasn't obvious that you realised how much homework you need to do before breeding a litter. As you don't have an experienced breeder to mentor you, you will need all the help and advice you can get but it's hard to give advice if you take offence when it's offered ;) I asked some genuine questions about what your aims were & why you might want to use a solid stud dog - these questions were asked with the sole intention of helping you with your research but without answers, I can't really give any more advice :unsure: Just one other thing, eye testing panellists do not often work in general practice so do check that your vet does offer eye testing under the KC/BVA scheme.

Cayley, I haven't heard of breeders mating particolours to solids to improve colours. Mating recessive to recessive repeatedly can produce wishy washy colouring but to avoid this, you would just breed your orange to a blue roan or black & white, no need to use a solid.

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Gilly on October 14, 2005, 12:16:41 PM: I didn't mean to lecture you but there is so much involved ;) alot more than you could ever posts on a forum. Firstly I would try and get yourself to some shows....is that the reason you want to breed?? to keep one for showing? If you go to some breed shows you can have a look around and see what you should be aiming for. It really does help if like Jane says you have a mentor, I wouldn't have survived without mine ;) all my breeder friends were there at the end of the phone for me and I don't know what I would have done without them to be perfectly honest.

Have you got an affix so you can KC reg puppies? Is your bitch KC registered? Are you a member of any breed clubs?

I suggest you get yourself a copy of "The Book of The Bitch" and have a really good read through the breeding section.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Cayley on October 14, 2005, 02:05:02 PM: Quote
Have you got an affix so you can KC reg puppies? Is your bitch KC registered? Are you a member of any breed clubs?

I suggest you get yourself a copy of "The Book of The Bitch" and have a really good read through the breeding section.
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Ditto about the book.

I know what you mean Gilly but just so it doesn't cause confusion, you can register puppies providing the parents are KC reg and of the same breed even if you don't have an affix, it's just most breeders do choose one before they have their first litter :) . It's quite difficult to get an affix that hasn't been chosen let alone think up six of them, this usually takes quite a while (or at least it did for us) so that's something you'd need to think about fairly soon :D .
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Cazza_1978 on October 14, 2005, 02:43:48 PM: Quote
Quote
Have you got an affix so you can KC reg puppies? Is your bitch KC registered? Are you a member of any breed clubs?

I suggest you get yourself a copy of "The Book of The Bitch" and have a really good read through the breeding section.
[snapback]151979[/snapback]

Ditto about the book.

I know what you mean Gilly but just so it doesn't cause confusion, you can register puppies providing the parents are KC reg and of the same breed even if you don't have an affix, it's just most breeders do choose one before they have their first litter :) . It's quite difficult to get an affix that hasn't been chosen let alone think up six of them, this usually takes quite a while (or at least it did for us) so that's something you'd need to think about fairly soon :D .
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Thanks again - I have the book and have refered to it on quite a number of occasions.

My breeder advised the book when I bought Abi and Bertie.

thanks also for the affix info as no I dont but the girls are kc reg.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: lyn on October 14, 2005, 02:58:46 PM: hi.
sorry if i sounded like i was lecturing you, i wasn't.it's just that i remember my friend bred her german shepherds and the expence and time involved was so shocking to her she nearly had a nervous breakdown, i know if you are planning to breed you have to start somewhere. so i wish you luck and nerves of steel :lol:
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Cazza_1978 on October 14, 2005, 03:45:21 PM: Quote
hi.
sorry if i sounded like i was lecturing you, i wasn't.it's just that i remember my friend bred her german shepherds and the expence and time involved was so shocking to her she nearly had a nervous breakdown, i know if you are planning to breed you have to start somewhere. so i wish you luck and nerves of steel :lol:
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Hi

Thanks I know everyone was meaning well it was just i felt a bit I was being shot down before I had even started.

This is all a learning process and I am finding it all very intresting.(hours and hours of reading)

as they say "Everyday is a school day"
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Magic Star on October 14, 2005, 07:43:34 PM: Cazza, I wish you luck with the breeding if after all the research and health checks etc you decide to go ahead :) Everyone has to start somewhere and by asking questions on here you are obviousley wanting to do things the right way, therefore being responsible :) There are experienced people on here who will be more than happy to answer your questions :)
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: mark smith on October 23, 2005, 10:34:11 PM: Quote
Hi

Can anyone give me advice on breeding my Blue Roan with a Solid cocker.

are there any reason this would not be advised?

The owner of the solid cocker stud has also given me details of another breeder with parti colour studs which I am waiting for her to call me back.

thanks
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hi my advise woudl be try to avoid mixing solids and parti colour as has been mentioned you could end up with miss marked dogs however if your blue does have poor eye colour i.e light colour to improve this you would need to breed with a black dog with parti in its pedigree you can get its history from the kennel club as they hold all this info. but any puppies produced sshould be bred to thier own i.e soilid pups to solid next and parti pups to parti to stop miss marking
mark
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 23, 2005, 10:45:12 PM: Quote
...however if your blue does have poor eye colour i.e light colour to improve this you would need to breed with a black dog with parti in its pedigree ...
mark
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I haven't heard of this before to be honest. To improve on light eyes in a particolour, you'd choose a parti stud dog with good, dark eyes, preferably with no light eyes in the near ancestry. Eye colour is inherited like any other characteristic & light eyes are known to crop up in some lines but I can't see any reason why a solid black would be any better a choice than a dark-eyed particolour. I've seen quite a few solids with lighter than desirable eyes so it's not something you only see in partis ;)

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: mark smith on October 23, 2005, 11:18:56 PM: Quote
Quote
...however if your blue does have poor eye colour i.e light colour to improve this you would need to breed with a black dog with parti in its pedigree ...
mark
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I haven't heard of this before to be honest. To improve on light eyes in a particolour, you'd choose a parti stud dog with good, dark eyes, preferably with no light eyes in the near ancestry. Eye colour is inherited like any other characteristic & light eyes are known to crop up in some lines but I can't see any reason why a solid black would be any better a choice than a dark-eyed particolour. I've seen quite a few solids with lighter than desirable eyes so it's not something you only see in partis ;)

Jane
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i agree you dont only get it in parti colours however because there is alot less chocloate in solids they dont tend to have the light eye that chocolates give the light eyes you find in solids are through incorrect breeding with solid and parti
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 23, 2005, 11:34:46 PM: Quote
i agree you dont only get it in parti colours however because there is alot less chocloate in solids they dont tend to have the light eye that chocolates give the light eyes you find in solids are through incorrect breeding with solid and parti
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I agree liver/chocolate in the pedigree can give light eyes but there are plenty of particolour lines without the liver gene so why not pick a parti dog from these lines rather than a solid? I can't think of too many successful parti breeders who would go out & use a solid stud dog if they come across a problem with light eyes - no need to really ;)

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: mark smith on October 24, 2005, 12:04:07 AM: Quote
Quote
i agree you dont only get it in parti colours however because there is alot less chocloate in solids they dont tend to have the light eye that chocolates give the light eyes you find in solids are through incorrect breeding with solid and parti
[snapback]154049[/snapback]
I agree liver/chocolate in the pedigree can give light eyes but there are plenty of particolour lines without the liver gene so why not pick a parti dog from these lines rather than a solid? I can't think of too many successful parti breeders who would go out & use a solid stud dog if they come across a problem with light eyes - no need to really ;)

Jane
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you misunderstand me i also agree to avoid mixing parti and solid however i was answering the first question like you i would look for a good parti dog to stud as we are in the situation to do so she is not . It is not a bad thing to mix breeding though poor eye colour is in partis more than solids this is not the only thing i was just using this as one situation im sure as a cocker breeder you carnt say no never breed solid and parti because it will cause major problems the only problem it causes is mis marking caused due to re mixing off spring which has come about by some well known breeders as im sure you are aware a pedigree needs to be looked at carefully before breeding
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 24, 2005, 10:11:12 AM: Quote
you misunderstand me i also agree to avoid mixing parti and solid however i was answering the first question like you i would look for a good parti dog to stud as we are in the situation to do so she is not . It is not a bad thing to mix breeding though poor eye colour is in partis more than solids this is not the only thing i was just using this as one situation im sure as a cocker breeder you carnt say no never breed solid and parti because it will cause major problems the only problem it causes is mis marking caused due to re mixing off spring which has come about by some well known breeders as im sure you are aware a pedigree needs to be looked at carefully before breeding
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I don't think I misunderstood you Mark ;) You specifically advised someone that if they had a blue bitch with light eyes then they "would need to use" a solid when this advice doesn't really hold true ;) I haven't found light eyes to be a major problem in our partis over the many years we have been breeding but then we have generally avoided the lines with liver/chocolate due to concerns over PRA. Yes of course I am aware that pedigrees need to be looked at carefully before breeding and the original poster has already been given that advice if you read the whole thread!

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: mark smith on October 24, 2005, 11:52:11 AM: Quote
Quote
you misunderstand me i also agree to avoid mixing parti and solid however i was answering the first question like you i would look for a good parti dog to stud as we are in the situation to do so she is not . It is not a bad thing to mix breeding though poor eye colour is in partis more than solids this is not the only thing i was just using this as one situation im sure as a cocker breeder you carnt say no never breed solid and parti because it will cause major problems the only problem it causes is mis marking caused due to re mixing off spring which has come about by some well known breeders as im sure you are aware a pedigree needs to be looked at carefully before breeding
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I don't think I misunderstood you Mark ;) You specifically advised someone that if they had a blue bitch with light eyes then they "would need to use" a solid when this advice doesn't really hold true ;) I haven't found light eyes to be a major problem in our partis over the many years we have been breeding but then we have generally avoided the lines with liver/chocolate due to concerns over PRA. Yes of course I am aware that pedigrees need to be looked at carefully before breeding and the original poster has already been given that advice if you read the whole thread!

Jane
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ill agree to disagree cause we could go on forever let the others make up their own minds its unfair to claim pra in chocolates this is a unproved fact
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 24, 2005, 01:12:45 PM: Quote
ill agree to disagree cause we could go on forever let the others make up their own minds its unfair to claim pra in chocolates this is a unproved fact
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I'm not arguing for the sake of it Mark but will always correct something that is factually incorrect ;) As for your comment about PRA in chocolate lines being unproven, I cannot believe that you are unaware of the well-known show-type liver/chocolates who have been proven to be either PRA carriers or PRA affected! As many of today's current breeding lines go back to these dogs, it makes sense to be prudent about using them, although of course it will be easier now we have the Optigen gene test. I gather you don't eye test so perhaps this is not something you have studied in depth.

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: mark smith on October 24, 2005, 01:25:24 PM: Quote
Quote
ill agree to disagree cause we could go on forever let the others make up their own minds its unfair to claim pra in chocolates this is a unproved fact
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I'm not arguing for the sake of it Mark but will always correct something that is factually incorrect ;) As for your comment about PRA in chocolate lines being unproven, I cannot believe that you are unaware of the well-known show-type liver/chocolates who have been proven to be either PRA carriers or PRA affected! As many of today's current breeding lines go back to these dogs, it makes sense to be prudent about using them, although of course it will be easier now we have the Optigen gene test. I gather you don't eye test so perhaps this is not something you have studied in depth.

Jane
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i am now optigen testing and hope that alot more people will do so and then it will be proven or not weather it is the chocolate gene until then it is not proven and as is only very few people have eye tests done you can not use this as your evidence come on be fair what you would have peole believe is that chocolates are the only colour that produce bad eyes and as you dont breed the colour would sound right be fair and wait until all the facts are in and we have a vast amount to results from all colours before knocking a colour
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: kookie on October 24, 2005, 02:09:04 PM: What is optigen testing. I have heard the name a few times now. I thought I was going the right thing when I had my girls eye tested, it was about 4 years ago, is this a different test?
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Emily on October 24, 2005, 02:11:52 PM: you can find out about it here (http://www.optigen.com/)
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: mark smith on October 24, 2005, 02:14:54 PM: Quote
What is optigen testing. I have heard the name a few times now. I thought I was going the right thing when I had my girls eye tested, it was about 4 years ago, is this a different test?
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hi karen www.optigen.com will give you all the info. on it . it is a dna test to see if you gogs has pra , is clear or is a carrier of it! your test would of told you if your dog had it but look on the website as i may be corrected
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: kookie on October 24, 2005, 02:17:33 PM: Thanks, I'm off for look now.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 24, 2005, 05:33:34 PM: Quote
i am now optigen testing and hope that alot more people will do so and then it will be proven or not weather it is the chocolate gene until then it is not proven and as is only very few people have eye tests done you can not use this as your evidence come on be fair what you would have peole believe is that chocolates are the only colour that produce bad eyes and as you dont breed the colour would sound right be fair and wait until all the facts are in and we have a vast amount to results from all colours before knocking a colour
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Just to correct this obvious misunderstanding - I'm certainly not knocking any colour & we did breed liver/chocolate quite a few years ago to one of the stud dogs now known to be a PRA carrier. The reason I mentioned chocolate/liver specifically was because there is a very small gene pool for this colour in show lines and so all show-type dogs of this colour tend to go back to the same lines. I did not suggest for one minute that PRA is connected to the liver/chocolate colour gene - that would be quite silly ;) But it does follow that in a limited gene pool with known carriers in the background that any breeder needs to be really careful when breeding for this particular colour. I'm really glad to hear you are now Optigen testing & hope you will send the results to The Cocker Club for publication in the Welfare Booklet :)

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Ulla R on October 26, 2005, 09:03:44 PM: I did a mating with my red bitch to a blue roan dog (which is from mixed lines with almost every possible colour in the pedigree). The dog is a multi champion and has produced very nice puppies with both parti- and solid-girls. I did got four very nice puppies and the girls were mismarket when born, but both girls (now 12 weeks) are without white colour on the their face. The black girl has quite a lot of white on the chest but still it is ok. Now I have two possiblities: continue with my solid line and start to breed parties also. How facinating!

I don't know what is so bad in mixing these lines? If you get missmarked puppies you sell them to pethomes (most of them goes that way anyway.) It is a great way to freshen up the breed and maybe to make the temperaments better. It is only a colour. And that is the most unintressant thing in cocker in my point of view.

(http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7296/bambillekoti9oc.jpg)

Bambi, at the age of 8 weeks (when se was born she had a very wide white stripe on her foreface and it has slowly disapeared when she has grown)

I will take a new picture of her when she comes here next weekend
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: amanda on October 26, 2005, 09:12:50 PM: Oh wow, she's beautiful.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: kookie on October 27, 2005, 07:13:06 AM: If no one had ever put solids and partis together, then would we have all the beautiful colours we have today. Cockers are one of the few breeds,(possibly only?) that have such a huge array of colours.
I think if people are willing to take the risk, provided they do know what theyre doing, is it such a bad thing?

As long as all the health checks are carried out, and we breed healthy happy dogs, I really cant see a problem.

I'm I to duck and take to the hills now....? ;)
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 27, 2005, 10:21:44 AM: You don't need to duck Karen ;) The key phrase is "provided they do know what they're doing" which we are all saying :) Solid/parti matings need to be carried out with full knowledge of the pedigrees involved & for the right reasons - not just on a whim because the nearest stud dog happens to be a solid (or vice versa). I still don't follow Ulla's reasoning that mixed solid/parti breedings improve temperaments as surely a dog whose temperament needs improving should not be bred from in the first place? Sorry if I've misunderstood this :unsure:

The other breed with a similar range of colours is the American Cocker where it is more common to mate solids with partis but they do have a much smaller gene pool in the UK than we do in Cockers.

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: kookie on October 27, 2005, 02:02:09 PM: Phew! ;)
and I really do mean as long as they know what theyre doing.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Ulla R on October 27, 2005, 04:08:16 PM: It is generally know that solids tend to have more problems with the temperament. And our breed clubb has made efforts to sort it out from which family the problems comes. So far the only fact that has come out is that the pedigrees are very different from each other. So the problems appear in almost every family. Although that the parents has been carefully selected and are known to have excellent temperaments. So what can we do? `

The swedes have been doing that in several decades with good results, so why don't we other try that?

And I don't mean that if a solid has a poor temperament that it could be fixed with mating with a parti. No such animal should never be breed from.

Actually when we don't mix the lines so we almost have three different breeds here: solid, parties and working. And it is kind of pity...
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: chrisfund on October 27, 2005, 09:26:55 PM: Wow, very interesting posts, right?
Whenever I come to the forum I always find something invaluable :D

It took 5 years for my wife and I to have our first litter. At least we thought that was enough to. lol

I'm afraid we should study and learn more. All the posts I read here tonight tell me that I shouldn't stop studying about our human-like gangs. what is wrong with me.

My wife visited KC library a few years ago. She said she read a book written about color breeding of cocker spaniels. think it's out of print now.

She copied a few interesting pages there but forgot to write down the name and author of the book :o

Have someone ever read it or have it at a personal library?
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Jane S on October 28, 2005, 04:00:39 PM: Quote
My wife visited KC library a few years ago. She said she read a book written about color breeding of cocker spaniels. think it's out of print now.

She copied a few interesting pages there but forgot to write down the name and author of the book :o

Have someone ever read it or have it at a personal library?
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I don't think there has ever been a book specifically about colour breeding in Cockers. I'm wondering if it was the Burns & Fraser book on Genetics of The Dog which your wife saw? One of the authors of this book bred Cockers & so there is quite a bit about Cocker colour inheritance in the book, although it's quite dated now.

Jane
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: chrisfund on October 28, 2005, 05:23:49 PM: Quote
I don't think there has ever been a book specifically about colour breeding in Cockers. I'm wondering if it was the Burns & Fraser book on Genetics of The Dog which your wife saw? One of the authors of this book bred Cockers & so there is quite a bit about Cocker colour inheritance in the book, although it's quite dated now.

Jane
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Thanks, Jane.

I have checked again the copies which my wife broght from KC. I think the name of the book is 'THE COCKER SPANIEL' It covers from breeding methods to color breeding. also covers how to pick up a better stud dog. I only have some partial pages.

It might be dated. I'm sure it's still useful for a recent breeding program.
Title: Stud Dogs
Post by: Gilly on October 29, 2005, 12:28:08 AM: I think the book your talking about is by George Caddy, it is currently out of print but copies occaisionally pop up on Ebay.