CockersOnline Forum

Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Workingspaniel on October 22, 2005, 05:03:30 PM

Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 22, 2005, 05:03:30 PM: Hi guys, I have a beautiful working cocker bitch called Bella who's just over a year old now and has just had her first season. Don't worry! I'm not thinking of breeding from her immediately, I want to wait until she's at least 2 years old before she has her first set of pups. However firstly I was wondering whether Bella has any relatives distant or close on the forum? And secondly, can a suitable stud dog share some of the same acenstors as Bella, and what generation would be too close to share relatives in between the sire and dam?

Here's Bella's pedigree:

Wrenside Bella of Waitby (our pup)

Parents:
Whaupley Silver Fern
High Hill Wanderer

Grandparents:
FT CH Rigfoot Teal
Thornie Teasil
Whitecourt Rollo
Davidon Julie

Great grandparents:
Anahar Whirlwind
Beechcroft Raven
FTW Goldengrove Sabre of Rowston
Rowston Smudge
Wernffrwd Adamson
White Walls Soft Centre
Bournepark Blade
Helkswood Lily

Great great grandparents:
FT CH James of Anahar
FT CH Tayburn Valentina of Anahar
Yogi of Islabank
Peat brown
Rowston Teal of Maesydderwen
Maesydderwen Beauty
FT CH Maesydderwen Kestrel
CH FT CH Ginger imp of Rowston
Graig Felin Adam
FT CH Gwibernant Snake
Craigfelin Bunterson
Murgwyn Bunty
Bisto of Bournepark
FT CH Wernffrwd Pawn
Whitecourt Rollo
Kentee Wagtail

Great great great grandparents:
Jordieland Tip
FT CH FT CH Lollipop of Anahar
Lammerlaw Muffin
FT CH FT CH Tayburn Cockle
Wren of George Way
Black Magic Rogue
Linswell Lark
Coco of Spatchcock
FT CH Stoorie of Laighpark
CH FT CH Ginger Imp of Rowston
FT CH Housty Solo
FT CH Wernffrd Melyngoch
FT CH Swallow Law Snipe
FT CH Wernffrd Melyngoch
FT CH Craig Felin Angus
Mount Pleasant Lass
Windmillwood Socks
FT CH Nancarrow Gypsy
Jasper of Gwibernant
Imp of Gwibernant
FT CH Bunter of Jordieland
FT CH Nancarrow Sooty of Graogfelin
Hartshorn Rob of Weavervale
Nancarrow star
Jasper of Gwibernant
Gwibernant Chimney
FT CH Rhu of Migdale
FT CH Gwibernant Snake
Wernffrwd Adamson
White walls soft centre
FT CH Stoorie of Laighpark
Catshaw Falsh

We'd ideally like to find Bella a stud who's from similar lines to her, because we love everything about her. The points that we'd like to improve if we could would be the coat (a little bit longer with more feathering) and possibly slightly better eyesight as she sometimes looses sight of game, although her sense of smell is wonderful.
Also we'd like the stud to be a Field Trial Champion if at all possible.

Do you think a stud like this exists out there?? :D

Anyway, I'd love to hear from anyone who owns one of Bella's relatives.

Finally is this pedigree good? or are there some dogs in there which are known to have any hereditary problems? As far as we know all the dogs have no serious hereditary faults, however I'm sure someone out there may well know better than us.

Best wishes Mary
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Jane S on October 22, 2005, 05:27:48 PM: Hi Mary

It's good to hear you're doing your homework first before deciding to breed :) I'm sure Kirsten (workingcockers) will be along later to give you specific advice on Bella's pedigree & choosing a stud dog. As far as health screening is concerned, I'm sure you're aware that not many Working Cocker breeders eye test or hip score but that doesn't mean that problems don't exist in Working lines - there have been some poor hip scores recorded for a few Working Cockers from well-known FT lines. if you don't test, you don't know what's there so I would always recommend annual eye testing at the very least (a gene test is also now available for prcd-PRA) and/or hip scoring too :)

Jane
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: miche on October 22, 2005, 05:40:51 PM: Hi Mary

Welcome to COL :)

I have two cockers one working and one three quarter working/quarter show. They are still both young pups and are lovely dogs, so full of character. I don't work either of them they are pets, although I am waiting to see if they show any Agility Skills - I know flyball is out of the question as Mikey runs the other way when faced with a tennis ball :lol:

A lot of names in their pedigree are the same as Bella's, ie Housty Solo, Maesydderwen Kestrel.

I will dig out their pedigree's and have a look out for more names that are the same :)
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 22, 2005, 05:40:54 PM: Hi Jane, yes of course I forgot to add that we'll get Bella tested for all the main genetic problems such as eyes, hips etc... before we breed from her. Obviously if she has very poor scores then we just won't breed from her and will have her speyed.

Does anyone know what the main genetic problems that should be tested for in working cockers are?

Best wishes Mary

PS: This is such a friendly forum, :) other dog forums have scared me off in the past because of the unfriendliness of the supposed breeders towards newbies like me! :huh:
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 22, 2005, 05:45:48 PM: oooh how exciting, distant relatives of Bella! :D Where did you get your cockers from?
We got Bella from a fantastic family up in Cumbria who only bred their gorgeous bitch once before getting her speyed. So hopefully, all being well with hip tests etc.. we'll be able to carry on the line.

Best wishes Mary
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: lyn on October 22, 2005, 06:43:29 PM: ooh my paddy has loads of these dogs in his pedigree,he is half worker half show but i am not going to breed from him.
hope all goes well for you
lyn

must have taken you ages to copy that pedigree :lol:
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 22, 2005, 07:15:12 PM: Hi Lyn,
Yes it did take me rather a long time to copy out the pedigree!! :D My fingers were rather tired after typing it all out :rolleyes:

Oooh it's so exciting to hear that you've also got dogs in your pedigree that Bella has too.
Which dogs from the pedigree do you have in yours?

Best wishes Mary
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: workingcockers on October 22, 2005, 11:01:15 PM: Hi mary - welcome to the forum!!

My dogs share many common ancestors to yours too.
With regard to breeding, I personally eye test and hip score, but unfor there are not many working cockers with either or both tests and there is a very negative attitude to testing among the fraternity. However, doesnt put me off but I have to say at this moment in time it is virtually impossible to find a stud dog that not only compliments a bitch but also has satisfactory tests..

If you want to drop me an email (from my profile) and tell me a bit about your dog and what you want and dont want to produce in a pup etc, Ill try and suggest some dogs for you to mull over.

Regards

Kirsten
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Penel on October 23, 2005, 10:15:24 AM: Hi Mary - you did say any other opinions welcomed . I would ask you - why are you going to breed from Bella ? you say you want a puppy from her - can you be sure you will be responsible for all her puppies, forever, and will have them back if there is a problem. Are you aware of the risks of breeding from her, that she might die while giving birth - sorry but it happens - have you thought about tail docking - if the pups are all going to working homes then fair enough - otherwise it is unethical for a vet to dock them if they are destined to be pet dogs.
How are you selecting the stud dog - do you have considerable knowledge of working cocker lines ? how are you improving the breed by breeding from her ?
My opinion would be that you should perhaps consider getting another pup from the same lines as Bella, rather than breeding from her yourself. sorry to be blunt but I am so concerned about people breeding from their bitches because they want to keep one of the pups - IMO that is not a good enough reason.

Edited to say that working cockers don't have much coat for a reason so adding more feathering might not be a good idea, if you are intending on them being working dogs. :)
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Gilly on October 23, 2005, 03:30:23 PM: Where did the breeder of Tilly start, I'd be interested to know her reasons for breeding?

I do agree that breeding is not for the faint hearted ;) It's a huge commitment for the rest of the lives of any puppies produced.
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Miss Poohs on October 23, 2005, 06:14:08 PM: Some distant relatives there of Vahri and Rufus.

Good stock ;)
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Penel on October 23, 2005, 07:04:36 PM: Quote
Where did the breeder of Tilly start, I'd be interested to know her reasons for breeding?

I do agree that breeding is not for the faint hearted ;) It's a huge commitment for the rest of the lives of any puppies produced.
[snapback]153892[/snapback]

Was that comment addressed to me ?
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 23, 2005, 07:52:53 PM: Hi guys, thanks for your concern. Don't worry I'm not going head on and bloody minded into breeding from Bella. At present I'm just testing the water to see if she'd be suitable for such a task. Of course there are risks and problems associated with such a huge thing as breeding and I'm doing my best to educate myself thoroughly on all the risks involved before I make any serious decisions. However I believe that if bred correctly Bella could produce some absolutely smashing pups, with well adjusted temperaments and great working ability.
We are a well off family with a large london house and a substantial country residence too, so if we did breed from Bella and had to keep all the pups for some reason then we could cope, it wouldn't be ideal, but we'd be able to look after a large number of dogs. What I'm trying to say is that we aren't the sort of people who rush into something and then decide it's not for us. We research things fully before commiting ourselves 110% Finacially we can support at least one litter of pups and then keep them all on as adults as well quite easily. There is always at least one member of the family at home throughout the day as well which I think is ideal when you've got a dog as they're never left on their own for long lengths of time..
We have the time, the money and the comittment to embark on breeding from Bella. I feel that the only major obstacles are whether or not Bella is genetically suitable for breeding, whether Bella herself would be happy as a mum and whether Bella has got any heightened risks of complication in pregnancy and birth. Ie: is there a family history of difficult births.

Any more information and advice greatfully recieved on this subject.

Best wishes Mary
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: miche on October 23, 2005, 08:36:12 PM: Quote
oooh how exciting, distant relatives of Bella! :D Where did you get your cockers from?
We got Bella from a fantastic family up in Cumbria who only bred their gorgeous bitch once before getting her speyed. So hopefully, all being well with hip tests etc.. we'll be able to carry on the line.

Best wishes Mary
[snapback]153669[/snapback]

Hi again. Mikey is from a breeder in Radstock, Somerset. Both his parents were working cockers and kept as working dogs. Mikey himself would I am sure make a lovely worker. Herbie's mum is half worker and half show and his dad is a full working cocker. He was bred in a family environment and raised with children and is a wonderful family dog and as far as I can see so far - shows absolutely no working ability whatsoever!! :lol:. I got him very locally in Bristol, and all of the pups stayed local - a few staying within the breeders family.

They are both very different in temperment and compliment each other very well. Mikey looks like a typical worker but Herbie looks more like the show type. Both are lovely.

I haven't looked at their pedigree's for more similar names as we had to have our cat PTS last night :( but will do tomorrow.

Would love to see some piccy's of your Bella, what colour is she?
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 23, 2005, 09:13:49 PM: Hiya,
so sorry to hear about your cat :( It's always so hard to make those decisions for much loved pets, but I'm sure you did the right thing.

Your dogs sound lovely! Bella is a true worker though, she definitely had the working instinct from a very early age and naturally quarters the ground when out on a shoot. But like your dogs, she's a wonderful family pet as well, very soft and loves to be stroked and sat in front of the fire. I'm so glad that the lines she's from produce such lovely tempered dogs! :)

Bella is a solid dark lemon bitch (a small patch of white on her chest but not enough to call her lemon and white)

I don't have any recent photos of her (must do some soon!) But here are some photos of her when she was younger:

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/wizzyjigg/bellaandclareart084.jpg)
Here she is at 12 weeks old

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/wizzyjigg/bella015.jpg)
here she is at 10 months old lying on a bed rather naughtily!! :o :D

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/wizzyjigg/bella014.jpg)
here's a photo of her head, again at 10 months old.

She's now she's now 13 months old and has a more feathered coat and looks more grown up! She also acts more like a young lady and less like a little mischeif maker :)

Best wishes Mary
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Penel on October 23, 2005, 09:18:30 PM: She is beautiful Mary do you work her regularly then ? :)
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 23, 2005, 09:35:05 PM: Hi Penel,
Yes we do work her regularly either up in Cumbria where we have our country house or down south in Wiltshire where we have close friends who own land there. She's still learning as she's still only a young dog but her retrieve, drop at a distance and flush are all extremely promising. She'll also sit and lie on command, she's deffinitely the best behaved dog in our local park! ;)

I hope you've got my pm, I honestly didn't mean to be retaliatory to your previous post. I've just been thoroughly bullied and put down by some beastly breeders recently who thought my idea of breeding was rediculous, even though they hadn't seen Bellas pedigree or any photos of her. They used the term 'leave breeding to the big boys dear' purely because I haven't had experience of breeding dogs in the past. Anyway their remarks are behind me know, and this forum is much more friendly and supportive. So I appologise for being too touchy :unsure:

Best wishes Mary
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Gilly on October 23, 2005, 11:10:09 PM: Quote
Quote
Where did the breeder of Tilly start, I'd be interested to know her reasons for breeding?

I do agree that breeding is not for the faint hearted ;) It's a huge commitment for the rest of the lives of any puppies produced.
[snapback]153892[/snapback]

Was that comment addressed to me ?
[snapback]153956[/snapback]

Yes it was I felt you were being a bit hard on Mary ;) who really seems to be trying to do her homework. What I was getting at was that every breeder has to start somewhere. I agree, breeding just for one litter so you can keep one is not a good idea but if your doing it to improve the breed and produce good quality workers/show type, you have an excellent example of the breed, do all relevant health testing etc and you have taken on the responsibility and commitment of a reputable breeder I don't see what is wrong with breeding. But as I have said before there are many heartaches and pitfalls so it is not for the fainthearted.
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: miche on October 23, 2005, 11:11:46 PM: Bella is a lovely pretty working cocker. What a beautiful colour! :)
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: lyn on October 24, 2005, 09:33:02 AM: wow mary she is gorgeous.paddy has a few of her ancestors in his ped i will look it out and list them later.paddy is black and tan and looks just like yours in build and coat(though his coat is starting to thicken and grow at an alarming rate)his head is more domed but that seems the only difference.as has been said before every breeder had to start somewhere and i wish you the best of luck in your quest.i would love to see a more recent photo i bet she's better looking now she is older.there is a lady on here who posted pics of her worker a couple of weeks ago and he is stunning i think her name was debbie something she has posted in behaviour look her up and have a look at her dog he is orange!
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: flozac on October 24, 2005, 10:34:23 AM: Beautiful dog I have PMd you
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 24, 2005, 12:16:26 PM: Thanks guys, I'll go and tell Bella your compliments, I'm sure she'll blush! :D :rolleyes: She's such a little flirt anyway, this'll just boost her little ego to the max! ;)
I'll go and try and look up 'debbies orange dog' :) He sounds very interesting and I'm sure he's completely gorgeous, he's a cocker, so he must be! :)
Thankyou for the pm, I will try the websites that you've mentioned.
You're all so very kind, your help and support is very much appreciated :)

Best wishes Mary

PS: I'll try and get some new photos of Bella, but first I have to get the digital camera back from my sister who has nabbed it and gone off on holiday for a few days with her partner!
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Penel on October 24, 2005, 12:38:48 PM: I didn't mean to appear hard on Mary - have pm'd with Mary since anyway. :) I agree with everything you have said though Gilly regarding breeding.
One point I made to Mary is that perhaps increasing the coat on Bella is not such a good idea - working cockers have very sleek coats for a reason - you don't want them to end up looking like a show cocker - all that coat just gets in the way !!! :lol:
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 24, 2005, 12:58:10 PM: Hi Penel, Yes it's nice that Bella has a sleek coat because she's able to keep herself clean all on her own, we only have to groom her if she gets burrs on her or if she gets really muddy. Otherwise she's a very good self cleaning dog. Some of Bellas siblings however do have slightly thicker coats, slightly longer hair on the main body and a bit more feathering. This slightly furrier look is very appealing and doesn't seem to hinder their working ability and they're still able to keep themselves clean. Ideally we'd like Bella to have pups with this slightly furrier look, as Bella looks rather naked compared to her siblings and other working cockers!
I agree that a working cocker with a very long coat like show cockers would not be suitable for a working dog. Thay'd get tangled far too easily! and I'd hate to be the person tyring to groom a dog with long fur that's just been through a patch of goose grass!! :o ;)

Thanks for your advice Penel

Best wishes Mary
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Cayley on October 24, 2005, 01:26:07 PM: Hello Mary,

What you also might like to think about (when you know for certain whether you will or won't breed from her) is to look into getting yourself an affix. It is a word that you put at the start of the names of puppies you breed (or end of your current dogs names) that makes it easier to distinguish your dogs and you as a breeder from others. It takes a while to think up six possibilities, sometimes all of them are taken and you have to think up another six to try out, if your lucky you'll get your first choice but they have to go through an acceptance phase incase it sounds too much like an affix that is used already :) .
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Tracey J on October 24, 2005, 02:45:09 PM: Hi Mary! I'm not a breeder and don't have a working cocker (have 2 show-type) but just have to say Bella is gorgeous!!! I can understand why you would want more of her :lol: . It's good to see you're not going into this blindly. Best of luck.
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: Workingspaniel on October 25, 2005, 12:06:57 AM: hiya, well we thought that considering Bella's full registered name is 'Wrenside Bella of Waitby', we think that maybe Wrenside could be our affix, as I think it's unlikely that this name has been used before by another breeder. It's the name of our country house up in a pretty remote part of the Eden valley. Waitby is the name of the place Bella was born, that's why we thought it appropriate to have that in her full registered name too. She's a northern bred dog so we though she should have some northern names! :)

Thanks Tracy, What colours are your show cockers? I do love show cockers especially the tiny little girlies, they really tug at my heart strings! So soft and elegant combined with a loving but naughty streak which just makes them even more endearing :wub: I've met some absolutely adorable little show type cockers in the park. They all seem to do that really sweet thing of ambushing faster and larger dogs who have gone to retrieve a ball and are returning back to the group of owners. The little cockers flatten themselves to the floor, pretending to be the grass, and then suddenly they spring up and knock the ball out of the bigger dogs mouth, quickly pick up the ball in their own mouths and proudly trot over to their owner, presenting the ball as if they'd gone all the way to fetch the ball themselves :D The little clever thiefs! :ph34r: :rolleyes:

Unfotunately Bella has never participated in this little bit of mischief making, I wish she would sometimes, because it's just soooo funny to watch :lol:

Would love to see some photos of other peoples dogs, both workers and show type! :)

Best wishes Mary
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: lyn on October 25, 2005, 08:16:33 AM: Quote
Here's Bella's pedigree:

Wrenside Bella of Waitby (our pup)

Parents:
Whaupley Silver Fern
High Hill Wanderer

Grandparents:
FT CH Rigfoot Teal
Thornie Teasil
Whitecourt Rollo
Davidon Julie

Great grandparents:
Anahar Whirlwind
Beechcroft Raven
FTW Goldengrove Sabre of Rowston
Rowston Smudge
Wernffrwd Adamson
White Walls Soft Centre
Bournepark Blade
Helkswood Lily

Great great grandparents:
FT CH James of Anahar
FT CH Tayburn Valentina of Anahar
Yogi of Islabank
Peat brown
Rowston Teal of Maesydderwen
Maesydderwen Beauty
FT CH Maesydderwen Kestrel
CH FT CH Ginger imp of Rowston
Graig Felin Adam
FT CH Gwibernant Snake
Craigfelin Bunterson
Murgwyn Bunty
Bisto of Bournepark
FT CH Wernffrwd Pawn
Whitecourt Rollo
Kentee Wagtail

Great great great grandparents:
Jordieland Tip
FT CH FT CH Lollipop of Anahar
Lammerlaw Muffin
FT CH FT CH Tayburn Cockle
Wren of George Way
Black Magic Rogue
Linswell Lark
Coco of Spatchcock
FT CH Stoorie of Laighpark
CH FT CH Ginger Imp of Rowston
FT CH Housty Solo
FT CH Wernffrd Melyngoch
FT CH Swallow Law Snipe
FT CH Wernffrd Melyngoch
FT CH Craig Felin Angus
Mount Pleasant Lass
Windmillwood Socks
FT CH Nancarrow Gypsy
Jasper of Gwibernant
Imp of Gwibernant
FT CH Bunter of Jordieland
FT CH Nancarrow Sooty of Graogfelin
Hartshorn Rob of Weavervale
Nancarrow star
Jasper of Gwibernant
Gwibernant Chimney
FT CH Rhu of Migdale
FT CH Gwibernant Snake
Wernffrwd Adamson
White walls soft centre
FT CH Stoorie of Laighpark
Catshaw Falsh
[snapback]153660[/snapback]

ok i got it wrong there are only two gwybernant snake and rhu of migdale,oddly enough they are not the names i recognised at first glance it was wernffryd melyngogh and jasper of gwybernant maybe they are in his ped and i only copied half!or i have them stuck in my head from my research!
Title: Breeding My Working Cocker
Post by: lyn on October 26, 2005, 08:27:46 AM: me again,i checked his ped (i forgot it was in curtiso's database in genetics)the two dogs i recognised are in pads ped,phew i thought i was going mad :lol: