CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => General Cocker Spaniel Discussion => Topic started by: anita96 on March 18, 2006, 11:27:05 AM
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From my understanding the docking of tails will be banned and working dog will have the only exemption. I was wondering how does this effect show cockers and will we now see show cockers atshows undocked.
Anita
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Hello
My dad works for the police and he found out this on wenesday,show cockers will be shown with tails so will all the other breeds but they are also going to have to change the breed standards but if people show and work there cocker they will beable to have them dockced
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There are some cockers who are already being shown with a full tail - the breed standard was amended to include the full tail a while back.
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M.P'S voted for a ban on docking on Tuesday 14 March in the House Of Commons, with the exception of certain working dogs.
The Animal Welfare Bill will now move on to the House The Lords.
If docking is banned then yes you will see all show cockers undocked eventually.
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This only applies to Scotland at the moment though, doesn't it? What I can't seem to fathom out is whether I would be able to buy a docked puppy in England :huh: And if I could do that, would I be allowed to show him up here :huh:
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Yet again government taking away our right to choose!!!
My local MP is one of the MP's responsible for putting the bill through....Will the exceptions include working cockers if so, then as they are classified as cocker spaniels, what would be the defining points between working and non working.
I gonna move abroad
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I gonna move abroad
I think you might be disappointed if you do - US and European laws towards dogs are far more draconian - requiring muzzling in public of many "popular", but apparently aggressive, breeds; limits on where and how many dogs can be kept as pets, and far less tolerance or compassion towards dogs amongst the general population :(
Gill - I think this is part of the Animal Welfare Bill that, if passed by the Lords, will be law in England and Wales by November? BBC linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4807372.stm) I think Scotland is following a similar route with its own law also passing through the government channels for approval Scotsman linky (http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=272132006)
I suppose its inevitable; laws like this are brought in to reflect the views of wider society - and once all dogs are the same, then there should be no disadvantage in the show ring..... :-\
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surely if the breed standard has been amended then there shouldn't be an advantage or disadvantage.
Anita
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My mum forwarded me an article on this from one of the daily newspapers, as we have just bought a docked worker.
"The move means that 80 per cent of tail-docking will become illegal and within a couple of years dogs with shortened tails will be banned from shows. Dogs used by the police, rescue services, the Armed Forces and for pest control, as well as shooting, will escape the ban."
As someone who grew up with a spaniel complete with long swishy tail, I'm a bit sad that Barkley wont have one- especially as he keeps trying to reach it at the moment but is too small and so just goes round in circles! However I can totally see the validity for working dogs as I remember what our spaniel used to be like when his tail got caught in the undergrowth.
From other news items that I've heard, I understand that there is a big concern for the current show dogs with docked tails as they believe that in a few years time they will not be able to be entered. This seems terribly unfair if it is true.
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:-\
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I cant see how they can stop you from showing a dog which was legaly docked at that point in time . I would have thought that they would stop docking and graduly as dogs retired from the ring you would see far less.
Exactly Luvly
I have not seen anything that suggests that dogs docked before a ban comes into force will not be allowed to be shown.
Anyone wanting the latest news can visit the Council Of Docked Breeds website.
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surely if the breed standard has been amended then there shouldn't be an advantage or disadvantage.
True, in theory - but how many undocked dogs were seen at Crufts in the classes for traditionally docked breeds? ;)
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surely if the breed standard has been amended then there shouldn't be an advantage or disadvantage.
True, in theory - but how many undocked dogs were seen at Crufts in the classes for traditionally docked breeds? ;)
I saw Cockers with full tails at Crufts granted not as many as docked but they were defo there none the less, but then I think I am right in saying the majority of people that show cockers prefer the tails docked and are against docking being banned anyway so therefore you are more likely to see less with full tails, because there just are less in the show world.
That is how its always been explained to me anyway.
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As I understand it a deadline will apply, so it won't affect dogs docked before that date.
Interestingly there seems to be some talk, as read on another forum, that all dogs docked after the deadline will not be alowed to be shown at shows which charge a public entry fee, which presumably will apply also to obedience and agility etc..
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Interestingly there seems to be some talk, as read on another forum, that all dogs docked after the deadline will not be alowed to be shown at shows which charge a public entry fee, which presumably will apply also to obedience and agility etc..
It only counts for showing, puppies docked before the date can be shown as usual, so you will continue to see docked dogs at crufts for about 12 more years, docked dogs after the decided date can only be shown at shows that don't allow public entry on a fee.
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I don't think we will see many docked dogs at all even working dogs. The amendments to the AWB include vets certifying that they have preformed the docking. The RCVS has already said disciplinary action will be taken on any vets proved to have carried out ANY docking.... how many vets will be willing to certify that they have carried out docking and face possible disiplinary action??
:huh:
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Re Animal Wefare Bill in Scotland timescale (Sorry I haven't worked out how to do quotes yet). I got an email back from Animal Health & Welfare (Scotland) Bill team at the Scottish Executive on 27th Feb advising
"It is anticipated that the Bill will receive Royal Assent in July or August with the Bill coming into operation in the Autumn. Not all sections of the Bill will come into force on the same date and these will come into force at a later date when an Order is made"
I hadn't asked specifically about the ban on tail docking so I don't know if it will be one of the first things to be enforced.
Linda
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I was discussing the Bill with someone at the anti-docking alliance (sorry, I'm one of those in favour of it being banned) and apparently breeders wanting to get their working litters docked will have to show the vet a gun license or something that proves that they will be used for working. If it is found out later on that they are not working then the vet can be prosecuted - that's my understanding of it, anyway but I haven't totally got my head round it so feel free to correct me if anyone knows different!
Personally I'm pleased that at least something is being done about docking show dogs - it was great to see a few naturally tailed dogs at Crufts this year. Bella has a full tail and it's a gorgeous white flag of a thing, people comment on how lovely it is almost every week. :D
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Docking of show dogs is something I cannot understand at all, what is the reason for it being done?
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The pros & cons of docking have been discussed many times so if you're interested, you'll be able to find past threads, one not that long ago. Please can we keep this thread to a discussion about the forthcoming change in the law & it's impact.
Thanks ;)
Jane
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I might be very daft, but do they plan to get a docking ban on showspaniels, but not working spaniels??
Could anyone inform me how far you are from a total ban. I dont know the UK law-making system, so could anyone enlighten me please.
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This page of the CDB site explains the ammendments pretty well: http://www.cdb.org/lords/bill.htm (http://www.cdb.org/lords/bill.htm)
The RVS do prosecute their vets already if they are found to perform tail dockin which is why vets who do dock won't admit it or perform the operation if you aren't a CDB member.
I don't understand how this is going to be regulated if the lords pass it.
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The only way this can be managed and regulated I suppose is by the KC making it clear that only dogs with undocked tails after the 14th march will be accepted as the breed standard in shows.
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The only way this can be managed and regulated I suppose is by the KC making it clear that only dogs with undocked tails after the 14th march will be accepted as the breed standard in shows.
Wouldnt that make the dogshows very empty????
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This page of the CDB site explains the ammendments pretty well: http://www.cdb.org/lords/bill.htm (http://www.cdb.org/lords/bill.htm)
The RVS do prosecute their vets already if they are found to perform tail dockin which is why vets who do dock won't admit it or perform the operation if you aren't a CDB member.
I don't understand how this is going to be regulated if the lords pass it.
I still dont get it, so it should be legal to show a docked dog as long as the public do not pay a fee to see the show?
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obviously those docked before would be accepted until a time thay would reduce in numbers, but the point is the KC have to give a very clear and strong lead on this to ensure that the law is followed going forward.
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obviously those docked before would be accepted until a time thay would reduce in numbers, but the point is the KC have to give a very clear and strong lead on this to ensure that the law is followed going forward.
Ah ok, then I understand. This has also been the way to handle the docking ban in DK.
But if u were still allowed to dock the working cockers, how would u do it then. Anyone can say they work with their cockers cant they? Anyone can get a hunting liscense too. And working cockers can be shown too if they like cant they?
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very true and this is my point I think in the future you will see still see show cockers with docked tails and the breeders will claim they are working dogs. I think this will further diminish the KC reputation and show it as powerless to stop breeders from ignoring the law and the apparent breed standard.
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I think it is unworkable, as is the law at the moment. What really confuses me is why they've not mentioned dew claws in it at all? ::)
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I do think the law is workable but only if the KC make it unacceptable to have docked show breeds, and dew claw point is a very valid one if it's cruel and painful to dock but not to dew claw, it doesn't make sense, but that is another discussion all together. My point is not about the rights and wrongs of docking but the KC inability to manage its own breed standards and keep within the law.
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As far as I know it's the breed clubs that choose the breed standard, not the KC :blink:.
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I stand corrected KC rant over!! >:(
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I also wondered about the dew claws.
With regards to he following comment ' "It is anticipated that the Bill will receive Royal Assent in July or August with the Bill coming into operation in the Autumn.' what will happen if the bill doesn't receive royal assent as the queen has had quite a few docked corgi's in her time so I'm told.
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My vet dock's and he told me that as long as you have a gun licence to say you work your dog's you can dock,as far as dew claws go that's fine to have them done
so show spaniels...... ;) work as well as working spaniels.....well that's what he said anyway ph34r i surpose everyone will have to take up shooting get a gun licence and they will be fine ;)
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i surpose everyone will have to take up shooting get a gun licence and they will be fine ;)
:o :o OMG - can you imagine :o :o
There is no way I should be allowed legal access to a gun when it comes to some people - even sharp knives are a risk :005: :005:
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i surpose everyone will have to take up shooting get a gun licence and they will be fine ;)
:o :o OMG - can you imagine :o :o
There is no way I should be allowed legal access to a gun when it comes to some people - even sharp knives are a risk :005: :005:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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My vet dock's and he told me that as long as you have a gun licence to say you work your dog's you can dock,as far as dew claws go that's fine to have them done
so show spaniels...... ;) work as well as working spaniels.....well that's what he said anyway ph34r i surpose everyone will have to take up shooting get a gun licence and they will be fine ;)
how awful to hear that a vet is already thinking of ways to get around the ban. It's been unethical (according to the RCVS) for a vet to dock a dog that they know will not work, for years.... can't say I know many show cockers that work...
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Hi Penel i only now of one show cocker that works it's my OH friend's dog!
But yes i did think that what the vet was saying was a bit odd at the time,i wasn't sure were the conversation was going so i changed the subject quite quickly :005: it was a bit strange i don't now of any other show cockers that work ph34r
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As far as I know it's the breed clubs that choose the breed standard, not the KC :blink:.
All Breed Standards are owned by the KC - breed clubs cannot change them (Cocker breed clubs have been trying for many years to get the KC to change the clause on accepted colours changed without success ;))
Jane
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Thanks Jane, I wasn't entirely sure, I'd just read that somewehere.
Show cockers could work if given the chance, it's just the type of people that work properly are more likely to acquire a working cocker :D.
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Show cockers could work if given the chance, it's just the type of people that work properly are more likely to acquire a working cocker :D.
Absolutely Cayley :blink: I know a little black & tan show-bred Cocker who regularly works (I showed her owner how to keep her coat short for working) and there is a small dedicated band of show breeders who are keen to retain the show Cocker's working ability & do work their own dogs - not sure if any own a gun licence so will be interesting to see what happens. It seems likely that most working dogs will continue to be docked and it will be sad if we will no longer be able to see the Gamekeepers classes at Crufts or gundog displays at agricultural shows if dogs docked after Autumn this year are not able to appear at events which allow admittance to the paying public.
Jane
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Has anyone given a thought to the owners of dogs that regularly work them on shoots, wilfowling or hawking etc and who actually show them as well. My pointers breeder works her dogs and shows them and as a breed they want them to be able to do both instead of splitting the breed into working and showing, like the cockers. She can no longer do this, as docked dogs are unable to be shown if members of the public pay for the admittance and she won't work her dogs with full tails because of previous injuries.
This effects a number of breeds that currently have no show/work split ie: weims, vislers, German wirehaired pointer, German Shorthaired Pointers, Clumbers, English pointers, Springers, the list goes on. :huh:
How can the breeders achieve a truly versitile dog if there is a clear split between showing and working. >:(
Has anyone also given a thought to the thousand of lambs that are regularly docked every year by unqualified owners? >:D The number of young boys that are circumsized for no reason.
We are a hipercritical nation and are inconsistant in our approach to a number of things, unfortunately docking is just one of them. Once this debate has moved on, something else will be picked on.
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i have no strong thoughts on docking.i did go through a phase of thinking it was wrong but now i think it's a personal preference thing and don't understand why it's being banned.i have heard arguments from both sides and i wonder where it will end.i do think all the time and effort taken to put this through parliament could have been better spent ridding the country of puppy farmers and even backyard breeding.dogs who have to live in these places are suffering badly yet this practice is being given a blind eye.
what next?will they be telling us in a few years that certain colours are banned?like gold cockers coz apparently they are prone to rage syndrome.i do wonder what they will think up next.
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surely the working breeds will still be able to show as their tails are docked because they work and not for cosmetic reason as for show breeds. I think the law is complicated so we all think the government are working hard!!
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The thing is that people with undocked dogs will continue to work them, it isnt going to be the case that just because the dogs can't be docked that the dedicated band of people that show and work their dogs will suddenly give up working them, there are plenty of people who work dogs with ful tails all the time.
It isn't easy to get a shotgun licence and so i can't see breeders rushing out to apply just to get their show dogs docked. I work some of my dogs and would do so if they had tails or not, the only thing that concerns me is the fact that Scotland will not be having an exemption so good Scottish breeders will suffer as people who want docked dogs will buy English.
I think that it will be far too much hastle for any show cocker breeder to dock as even if they sell one dog to a pet home then they will have broken the law and most breeders don't have the homes lined up before pups are born.
As for working cockers very few of the working cockers being sold these days have done a days work in their lives, they may do a bit of gundog training at the most so its pretty much the same for both types of cocker, same goes for springers, hundreds of working springers with tons of FTCH's in the pedigree's and they are just pets? I just don't see how a breeder can justify docking a full litter under the guise of working them, esp with cockers.
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I just don't see how a breeder can justify docking a full litter under the guise of working them, esp with cockers.
Ironically, the kind of breeders who "may" be able to make this claim are often the ones who are less likely to be considered "reputable breeders" - I know a number of traditional working/farming households here who breed a bitch for the purpose of producing working dogs (with little cosideration for health screening etc) - often to replace older dogs who are reaching retirement age. Usually, the whole litter ends up in a working home; either as a full time worker, or with an owner who recreationally shoots at weekends :-\
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I agree Rachel,and these are the people who will already have a Gun Licence.
To get a licence you have to have a cabinet bolted to a suitable wall,which the police have to come round and inspect and then if your application is successful your guns are listed on the licence,don't know if you can have a current licence without actually owning a gun.I suppose that you can?
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This effects a number of breeds that currently have no show/work split ie: weims, vislers, German wirehaired pointer, German Shorthaired Pointers, Clumbers, English pointers, Springers, the list goes on. :huh:
There is a clear split in English springers between working and show lines.
English pointers are not docked.
Just wanted to make those points clear.
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I think that it will be far too much hastle for any show cocker breeder to dock as even if they sell one dog to a pet home then they will have broken the law and most breeders don't have the homes lined up before pups are born.
I'm sure you're right that purely show breeders will not continue docking once the law comes into force but it's not true that most breeders don't have homes lined up before they are born - experienced breeders with a good reputation do indeed have people waiting for puppies before they are born (I'm sure this applies to good Working Cocker breeders too) As to whether those owners who currently show & work their dogs will continue to do both activities after the law changes only time will tell - nobody knows at the moment.
Jane
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Even if they have homes lined up quite often 1 home falls through by the time the pups arrive, no breeder can ever guarantee the pups homes at 2 days old.
And what happens to pups returned to the breeder after a month or so for whatever reason, I presume if they are rehomed to pet homes then would that constitute a breach of the law??
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Even if they have homes lined up quite often 1 home falls through by the time the pups arrive, no breeder can ever guarantee the pups homes at 2 days old.
And what happens to pups returned to the breeder after a month or so for whatever reason, I presume if they are rehomed to pet homes then would that constitute a breach of the law??
Who knows? That's what's so crazy about the wording of the Act as it stands - it leads too many questions unanswered but then that always seems to be the way when governments draft legislation relating to dogs. It's obvious what they want to achieve but not enough thought has gone into the ins & outs.
Jane
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penel
I love your new pictures :D
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penel
I love your new pictures :D
oh wow!!!! so do i!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)
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oooh me too.penel how many hours does ot take to get one good piccie?
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I think we're going a wee bit off topic now :005:
(will post some new pics in Other Breeds !)
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:lol2:
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Docking is now illegal in most Australian states and soon will be illegal in all of Australia. Full-tailed cockers are the norm in shows here. I expected them to look odd, but their tails really don't seem to have much of an impact on looks. The ban is on tail docking of all dogs - working or not.
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I think working dog breeders are only going to sell to working homes so that they can continue to get their litters docked. I am quite interested to see if it's banned whether the (previously) docked dogs dog will continue to win or whether tailed dogs will start winning :D.
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I can't see any of us disagrees really - we know that good breeders have waiting lists for puppies but also any breeder knows they cannot know for certain at 3-5 days old whether a dog intended for working will actually be used for working as there are so many unpredictable factors which come into the equation. One would hope that common sense will be used when interpreting the new law but all we can do is wait & see what will happen as it's all just conjecture at the moment.
Jane
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Afterall it could still remain as the Status quo depending on what is done in the House of Lords.
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My original question was around whether show cockers will be seen at shows with tails, having seen all the comments I am still wondering whether breeder will show undocked dogs or whether the waters will be muddied over the working dog exemptionl
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As you know I live in Australia and here docking is already banned so Samba (6months) has a full tail, and I love it, it balances her shape beautifuly, I can see her emotions, when she was a puppy it was so important, I love to look at her walking in front of us with her tail wagging happily.
I'm not a purist, it's my first dog, and I'm totally in love with her from nose to tail :luv: :luv:
Mag
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My original question was around whether show cockers will be seen at shows with tails, having seen all the comments I am still wondering whether breeder will show undocked dogs or whether the waters will be muddied over the working dog exemptionl
...further to that on aesthetics - if show cockers fall under the 'working dog exemption' will they then have the long dock of the working cocker or still be able to dock very short as presently favoured? just curious.... ;)
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As you know I live in Australia and here docking is already banned so Samba (6months) has a full tail, and I love it, it balances her shape beautifuly, I can see her emotions, when she was a puppy it was so important, I love to look at her walking in front of us with her tail wagging happily.
I'm not a purist, it's my first dog, and I'm totally in love with her from nose to tail :luv: :luv:
Mag
The thing is tails vary in length and thickness and also vary the amount of hair that covers it, so when one dog may look in proportion another may look out of proportion, my Lottie has a very thin tail, for the most part it's thinner than a pencil with barely any hair.
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My original question was around whether show cockers will be seen at shows with tails, having seen all the comments I am still wondering whether breeder will show undocked dogs or whether the waters will be muddied over the working dog exemptionl
There is a big question mark is over how the working dog exemption will be interpreted but it seems pretty clear that show breeders who don't work their dogs will not be able to make use of it so yes you will see many more undocked Cockers in the ring after next year, as has happened in all the other countries which have banned docking (assuming the Lords pass the Act with its current wording)
Jane
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In case some of you are wondering where your posts have gone.
I decided to remove my post, and therefore any post with a quote from it too as otherwise the thread would not read correctly. It was off topic and leading this thread along another route.
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I asked about our practice policy on docking today, and didn't realise that none of our vets hav docked, or will dock, for the last 20 years. Only in cases of tail damage. As of today w have all the forms and a petition going in work to encourage people to write to their MP's. :D
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I asked about our practice policy on docking today, and didn't realise that none of our vets hav docked, or will dock, for the last 20 years. Only in cases of tail damage. As of today w have all the forms and a petition going in work to encourage people to write to their MP's. :D
Are vets taught how to dock?
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I asked about our practice policy on docking today, and didn't realise that none of our vets hav docked, or will dock, for the last 20 years. Only in cases of tail damage. As of today w have all the forms and a petition going in work to encourage people to write to their MP's. :D
Are vets taught how to dock?
I don't know - I assume so, like any other surgical procedure. We see attempts at docking on a weekly basis at work by people who obviously have no clue - at least if vets do it they have anaesthetics available and other drugs if it has to be done.
I'll ask.
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As of today w have all the forms and a petition going in work to encourage people to write to their MP's. :D
In support of the ban or against it? Our part-time vet (who is very old school and my favourite ;)) thinks the whole thing is nonsense and the other two vets haven't expressed an opinion. One of our nurses however has plasterd the waiting room with posters and postcards ::) This is also the same girl who told me that I "should be embarrassed to work in a vets when I have dogs with docked tails as it doesn't exactly show a united front" >:( >:D >:D Wish they had told me when I took the job 6 years ago that I wasn't allowed to have opinions of my own >:D
Edied to add that Penel has answered my question ;) :005: :005: I should learn to read properly ph34r
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I asked about our practice policy on docking today, and didn't realise that none of our vets hav docked, or will dock, for the last 20 years. Only in cases of tail damage. As of today w have all the forms and a petition going in work to encourage people to write to their MP's. :D
Excellent :D very pleased to hear it ! you have great vets Shona !