CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: legalbeagle on January 05, 2007, 07:44:43 AM
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Hi everyone
I have recently posted on the looking for a puppy forum - I am after an orange roan bitch - and a number of you have very kindly given me contact numbers of breeders who might help. I am now down on two waiting lists although, as both breeders have said they may wish to retain pups for themselves, I may well be unlucky. I have also been given details of a pup which is available but the problem is she is already 12 weeks old. I haven't had a pup for some time and I am a little nervous so I really wanted to play it by the book and get one at 8 weeks. I haven't spoken to the breeder yet but I am concerned that she may not separate easily from her mother and two siblings at this late stage and also I don't know what's happening about toilet training.
Also, if I have her, I really need to be taking her now and I haven't yet got anything - cage etc and (this might sound very silly) I haven't got myself into the mindset of having her. Usually you would have the build up of a few weeks. I need to move things round in the kitchen & get the kids sorted with their toys and so on. She does look a lovely dog though.
What do you think? I have been looking for a pup on the internet for ages but I have been quite surprised that my search engine hadn't thrown up the websites of these three breeders I am now in touch with so I am more hopeful that another one will become available soon. Is it best to wait?
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If the breeder has socialised her reasonably well with other dogs, kids etc. there is no reason why she should be more difficult than an 8-week old puppy. Personally, if I was happy with her temperament, socialisation etc., I would take her. If however you are uncomfortable about anything or don't feel ready, you need to wait! There's no point rushing into things and then struggling afterwards because of it.
Vera
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I agree with Vera - if the 12 week old pup comes from a breeder who socialises her puppies well, then there's no reason why this pup would be any more difficult than an 8 week old pup. It depends on the breeder though - if the pup has just been kept outside in a kennel and hasn't met many people, then it may be more of an issue that she's older. Does the breeder know that you want to show the puppy? Just asking as it could be that this pup is available because the breeder has decided not to keep her for showing?
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We got our pup at 12 weeks old and he'd been in a kennel so not particularly well socialised with humans.
However, despite him being very wary for the first day and night, he's settled extremely well now.
He was a completely different puppy the following day, lively and confident.
The only thing he was unsure of for some time was when we were standing up, he seemed uncomfortable with that for a while and backed away from us but that was resolved by about day 3.
Had our first puppy class a couple of evenings ago and he loved the attention from both puppies and humans.
I wouldn't worry too much...
The only thing I wonder is whether toilet training is slightly more difficult as we're a little behind...ie he was used to peeing wherever he liked for so much longer...
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We got our pup at 12 weeks old and he'd been in a kennel so not particularly well socialised with humans.
However, despite him being very wary for the first day and night, he's settled extremely well now.
He was a completely different puppy the following day, lively and confident.
The only thing he was unsure of for some time was when we were standing up, he seemed uncomfortable with that for a while and backed away from us but that was resolved by about day 3.
Had our first puppy class a couple of evenings ago and he loved the attention from both puppies and humans.
I wouldn't worry too much...
The only thing I wonder is whether toilet training is slightly more difficult as we're a little behind...ie he was used to peeing wherever he liked for so much longer...
Its great to hear that Benji has settled so well - and hopefully, he will continue to grow into a confident dog, but I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
Gwen Baileys book, The Perfect Puppy, has a table at the back which acts as a checklist for socialisation/habitualisation - and when we brought Molo home at 10 weeks, I had planned a schedule to ensure that we covered as many of them as possible - including public transport, different ages of children/adults etc ;)
I still missed things in the socialisation period which he encounters now and becomes nervous - he is terrified of bath bubbles, and despite being fed on raw food, shies away scared from any dead animals we may encounter on our walks ::)
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I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
Once again Rachel, you are generalising. >:(
Maybe I'm the exception rather than the rule but when I had Neneh's last litter, I had three pups with me (including Halle) up to the age of 17 weeks.
One was staying with me as the new owner's were an enquiry that came after 8 weeks, and they had a holiday booked, and didn't feel it was fair to have him for a few weeks and then bring him back. The other was here as a result of time wasters, and awaiting a suitable home.
It was damned hard work I'll admit, but every day those pups went out individually, at first being carried and then later down for short walks which included a small town's high street. We even took all three out a couple of times for an off lead run. They all turned out happy, sociable dogs who love the car, and the boys took no longer to settle into their new homes than their siblings.
It could have been very easy for me to have left the two boys at home and just took Halle out as she was mine, but as a responsible breeder I wanted the best for all the pups.
Don't put all your eggs in the same basket, and don't put all breeders in the same kennel!
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I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
Once again Rachel, you are generalising. >:(
Maybe I'm the exception rather than the rule but when I had Neneh's last litter, I had three pups with me (including Halle) up to the age of 17 weeks.
It was damned hard work I'll admit, but every day those pups went out individually, at first being carried and then later down for short walks which included a small town's high street. We even took all three out a couple of times for an off lead run. They all turned out happy, sociable dogs who love the car, and the boys took no longer to settle into their new homes than their siblings.
I hope that you are not the exception, Michele; but cannot imagine how there are enough hours in the day to provide three puppies with the same level of socialisation that is advised by Gwen Bailey ;)
You didn't mention whether you used public transport with your pups - which in some homes can be a daily occurrence? I remember how nervous Molo was in the car at first, and he had been taken out in the car by his breeder :(
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It must depend on each individual puppy to some extent...?
Benji had never really been in a car when we collected him but we've never had any problems with him in the car.
He just falls asleep!
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I hope that you are not the exception, Michele; but cannot imagine how there are enough hours in the day to provide three puppies with the same level of socialisation that is advised by Gwen Bailey ;)
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We have to make time!
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I didn't take advice from Gwen Bailey, I did what I felt was right for the pups.
My daughter's school is 5 miles away and so one went in the car in the morning, one again in the afternoon and the other one was on a journey somewhere inbetween. There was no set pattern as to who went when, but all three went in the car every day, sometimes all together. They'd been doing this along with their littermates since the age of 6 weeks.
I didn't use public transport, but maybe in future I ought to take them onto a train/plane or even ferry journey (perhaps to the IOW) just in case their new owners decided to take them on holiday with them.
Do you really think I could possibly re-create every daily occurences of other peoples lives for the pups, I don't, but I covered what I could.
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Do you really think I could possibly re-create every daily occurences of other peoples lives for the pups,
No, I don't expect you to be able to - hence my original comment, which is what you objected to:
I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
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Do you really think I could possibly re-create every daily occurences of other peoples lives for the pups,
No, I don't expect you to be able to - hence my original comment, which is what you objected to:
I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
So does that mean that pups that leave at 8 weeks WILL have been on public transport?
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So does that mean that pups that leave at 8 weeks WILL have been on public transport?
Well my pups came home when they were 8 weeks old and are now 11 months. And I'm ashamed to say they have never been on any form of public transport. ::)
But then I haven't been on a bus for 20 years either. :005:
And the other thing I haven't socialised then iwth enough is..................... the hoover! :005: Sorry. The vacuum cleaner. ::)
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I put the hoover round everyday, since the day bails came home at 7 weeks old and he still HATES it!!
Have never taken him on any public transport either!
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I couldn't socialise our pups on public transport if I wanted to as the local bus company only allows guide dogs and we're out in the country so not exactly handy for trains :D
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Do you really think I could possibly re-create every daily occurences of other peoples lives for the pups,
No, I don't expect you to be able to - hence my original comment, which is what you objected to:
I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
So does that mean that pups that leave at 8 weeks WILL have been on public transport?
No, it means that they will have experienced less than their litter mates will have done (assuming that their littermates have been socialised in the way Gwen Bailey (and many other experienced dog trainers/behaviourists) recommend :-\
I couldn't socialise our pups on public transport if I wanted to as the local bus company only allows guide dogs and we're out in the country so not exactly handy for trains :D
Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
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Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
And more to the point. Is it actually a question you would ask of a prospective owner of one of your pups? ::)
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Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
And more to the point. Is it actually a question you would ask of a prospective owner of one of your pups? ::)
That's my point - so much emphasis is put on early socialisation in books and articles (including the ones on this site), that surely the placement of an older puppy (that may, or may not, have had experience of the things it will encounter in its new home) should be given special consideration by both the breeder and the prospective owner??
My OP on this thread was in response to LegalBeagles request for peoples thoughts - somehow, my thoughts have been taken as breeder-bashing - which was never the case ::)
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Do you really think I could possibly re-create every daily occurences of other peoples lives for the pups,
No, I don't expect you to be able to - hence my original comment, which is what you objected to:
I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
So does that mean that pups that leave at 8 weeks WILL have been on public transport?
No, it means that they will have experienced less than their litter mates will have done (assuming that their littermates have been socialised in the way Gwen Bailey (and many other experienced dog trainers/behaviourists) recommend :-\
I couldn't socialise our pups on public transport if I wanted to as the local bus company only allows guide dogs and we're out in the country so not exactly handy for trains :D
Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
I am an avid believer in early socialisation and do as much as possible. But at 12 weeks old it doesn't suddenly become incapable of accepting new things. Even with a pup we got at 8 weeks we would still be introducing it to new things at 12 weeks old and far beyond. Yes it may take a little longer but it is by no means inpossible to successfully socialise a pup that you get at 12 weeks old.
Consider how many new things are dogs encounter every day even when they're 1 or older.
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Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
No, not really. We rehomed Stevie to Colin at 6 months to a totally different environment to what she was used to (big bustling city as opposed to quiet country village) but allowing her some time for adjustment, I think Colin would agree she's taken pretty much every thing in her stride. If puppies have been born with happy, confident temperaments and have been given plenty of general socialisation by the breeder, I don't think they have to experience every possible thing by a certain age to be able to accept these things in later life. I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience ;)
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Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
No, not really. We rehomed Stevie to Colin at 6 months to a totally different environment to what she was used to (big bustling city as opposed to quiet country village) but allowing her some time for adjustment, I think Colin would agree she's taken pretty much every thing in her stride. If puppies have been born with happy, confident temperaments and have been given plenty of general socialisation by the breeder, I don't think they have to experience every possible thing by a certain age to be able to accept these things in later life. I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience ;)
Ditto Nancy who came to me from a house with 10 Cockers to my house with 1 ;) Totally took it in her stride, and she was 5 months old, and a total mummys ( who is now her aunty 'coz I'm her mummy!!!!) girl!!!
I TOTALLY AGREE about them not having to experiencing everything by a certain age to accept things later in life, its just not possible to fit EVERY experience in to early socialisation! IMO socialisation IS ONGOING ;)
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somehow, my thoughts have been taken as breeder-bashing - which was never the case ::)
Well perhaps you should word your posts more carefully then. You said:
I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
You cannot possibly know that as a fact and yet posted it as one. ::) Some pups may go home at 8 weeks and not leave the house again until they are fully vaccinated. :-\ So staying the extra weeks with the breeder may be better for them. :D
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Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
No, not really. We rehomed Stevie to Colin at 6 months to a totally different environment to what she was used to (big bustling city as opposed to quiet country village) but allowing her some time for adjustment, I think Colin would agree she's taken pretty much every thing in her stride. If puppies have been born with happy, confident temperaments and have been given plenty of general socialisation by the breeder, I don't think they have to experience every possible thing by a certain age to be able to accept these things in later life. I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience ;)
Yep, Stevie has taken everything in her stride - she was a bit tentative of a few things at first, particularly buses and lorries thundering past us as we waited to cross the road - but after a few days she was fine. I'd agree that if the breeder has done a good general socialisation programme then it prepares the puppy/dog for other things it may not encounter until it's older.
Gwen Bailey gives a checklist of various types of people, animals, environments etc - with little boxes to tick upto the age of 10 months - she doesn't say you have to tick them all, or by a certain age. It's only a rough guide of things too - for example travelling on public transport isn't even on it. She also advises to take care not to overwhelm your pup - presumably she means not to flood it with too much too soon. Obviously socialisation is crucial but we can't all cover everything straight away.
As ever, it's all about choosing the right breeder - ones like Jane and Michele who know what they are doing and socialise their pups as best they can in preparation for their new homes. To me that's more important than the age of the pup. ( I personally wouldn't get an older pup that had lived all it's life in an outdoor kennel though. )
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LegalBeagle - we got Clive at 13 weeks and he was living in the breeders home with some of his littermates. I don't think he's had any particular problems settling in to life. We were very conscientious about socialising him to different things when we got him home, just like you would with an 8 week old and he is a great dog. If you are just concerned about the age of hte pup you have found, but are happy with teh breeder, I would say go for it. But if you are concerned you aren't quite ready, perhaps it would be better to wait - another pup will come along and pups do turn your life upside down very easily (in a lovely way of course) :D
As for this whole public transport thing, I have to say I think its going a little far. As far as I know, Clive had never even been near any and yet he hapoily comes to the train station to see me off every morning and has done so from about five months, and is also happy to go on the trains which he does at least as often as going in a car (we don't own one so we only hire one occasionally). Considering he wouldn't have gone on a train until he was about five months, we had no problems.
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Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
As ever, it's all about choosing the right breeder - ones like Jane and Michele who know what they are doing and socialise their pups as best they can in preparation for their new homes. To me that's more important than the age of the pup. ( I personally wouldn't get an older pup that had lived all it's life in an outdoor kennel though. )
Totally agree!! ;) ;)
Like I said before Nancy was 5 months and lived in ( all my breeders dogs do, which I like). And I know before I brought Nance home my breeder had deliberatly started taking her out on walks just with one other dog because thats how she would be walked here. Colins right it is defiently all about choosing the right breeder, the one that goes that extra mile ;)
Neither of these two have been on public transport either and they are both over 2, although are well socialised and very socialable, I feel rest assured that if I did take them on public transport it wouldn't phase them, even though they didn't exeperience it in there first 12 weeks ::) I think it has alot to do wth the temprement of the dog, how the react to different things but thats just my opinion! ;)
And in answer to Legal Beagles original question, I can't see why a 12 week old puppy would have a probelm settling in at all, especially if you are confidnet you have found a good breeder :blink: :blink: Good Luck Legal Beagle!! :D
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We got barney at 16 weeks and tried really hard to expose him to everything and anything! He took a wee while to settle down but is now a super, boisterous, playful dog who loves other people, dogs, cats anything! :D
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I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience ;)
Thanks for posting this Jane - I was starting to think I had imagined it all ph34r
Do you think there are actual benefits for the pups staying with their mum/littermates longer (assuming the breeder and the owner offer the same level of socialisation)?
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I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience ;)
Thanks for posting this Jane - I was starting to think I had imagined it all ph34r
Personally I would rather trust the word of a reputable breeder like Jane, than what I read in books. Books can be taken far too literally by some. Its the same with the gumph some of the early years advisory teachers wrote we had to read, we were forever saying, well thats fine in THEORY, but its not the case in our experience!! EXPERIENCE is defo they key!
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Two of my current dogs were brought home after 8 weeks of age - Dallas was 11 weeks and Aspen was just over 5 months. They were both kennelled outside with other dogs and I don't think either of them had much socialistaion, if any. Dallas was very anxious about everything - travelling in the car, traffic noises, general day to day household noises etc and took quite a while to settle. He also fell ill with gastroenteritis the day after I brought him home so that didn't help things. Aspen had never been in a car, had never had a collar or lead on, wasn't toilet trained etc but he adapted very well. He struggled a bit with the lead walking and the toilet training issues are STILL on going but he is such a happy, friendly boy and loves other people and dogs.
I know I've been very lucky that they both have sound temperaments but if I was to take on an older pup again, it would definitely have to have been home reared and had some sort of socialisation programe started for me to comtinue
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I think there is one thing to remember: even if a puppy has not experienced everything they will ever encounter in their lives, they can still get used to things at an older age. I have three rescue dogs, none of them were ever on public transport before we got them. Now, two of them (the third one never had to) are absolutely perfect on trains, trams etc. and settle down without problems... in fact, Dylan wants to get onto every train that goes past when waiting at the station.
Yes, it is important to socialise a pup properly, but that doesn't mean it has to see and hear absolutely everything it will ever see and hear as an adult; but it means that the puppy is taught to getting used to new situations so it won't have any problems getting used to new situations as an adult dog that he has never encountered before as a puppy. In other words, if a dog learns to cope in new and perhaps stressful situations (by socialising it as much as possible at a young age), then they will do just that as adults!
I fully expect to be able to take our two older dogs onto any kind of public transport now, eventhough they might never have been on it before, I fully expect them to adjust to new scenarios quickly and trust me, even if they have never seen it before.
It is an individual dog thing... our second lurcher comes from a very similar background as our older lurcher, but he is much less flexible, is still worried about new situations, takes much more time getting used to things... whereas our older lurcher is comfortable and confident in almost any situation that life throws at him now!
So, yes, go and socialise your pups as much as possible (hey, so will I in a few weeks when we bring ours home) and take it wherever you can; but don't panic if you are not able to do one thing or the other... chances are good that an otherwise well socialised dog will be able to adapt to almost any new situation.
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Thank you all for your responses (didn't think it was going to be so controverisal!). In the end, I didn't have the puppy. She was a long drive away and I felt I pretty much had to decide immediately whether I wanted her as the lady had someone else coming to look at the remaining pups. I'm not very good at being impulsive - It took me 6 months to accept my husband's proposal of marriage - honestly!
Anyway, I am in with a chance for a really, really special little girl and I hardly dare think about it as the breeder hasn't yet made up his mind whether or not to keep both of the two orange roan bitches he has. They aren't yet quite 6 weeks old. I hope to find out by the end of next week so I'll let you know what happens. Fingers crossed.
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We got Maudie at 6 1/2 months! She had spent most of her life outside kennelled with lab pups! The toilet training was hard work and fingers crossed weve had no accidents for a while but I am very aware of it and make sure that I put her outside for a wee! She couldnt have been more social tho that really wasnt an issue but I guess it all depends on the puppies temperament!
You definately shouldnt rush into buying this pup just because it is available! Make sure it is right for you, spend time with it etc! ( This is just a personal recommendation as we are new to doggie ownership too and we have been so lucky with Maudie)
Whatever you decide good luck and when you get your orange roan bitch I will be desperately jelous! :luv:
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Jane, if you were homing a pup that had for one reason or another been with you for 12 weeks or so; would you have any concerns about allowing iit to go to a home that would include regular bus or train journeys? ;)
No, not really. We rehomed Stevie to Colin at 6 months to a totally different environment to what she was used to (big bustling city as opposed to quiet country village) but allowing her some time for adjustment, I think Colin would agree she's taken pretty much every thing in her stride. If puppies have been born with happy, confident temperaments and have been given plenty of general socialisation by the breeder, I don't think they have to experience every possible thing by a certain age to be able to accept these things in later life. I realise that may not be the text book view but that's just been my experience ;)
Sorry but I just had to point out STEVIE IS BEAUTIFUL and Colin is an amazing doggie daddy, just by watching his videos you can tell how much love and attention Jimmy, misty and Stevie get they are all beautiful! Anyway you may continue!
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Books can be taken far too literally by some. Its the same with the gumph some of the early years advisory teachers wrote we had to read, we were forever saying, well thats fine in THEORY, but its not the case in our experience!! EXPERIENCE is defo they key!
Totally agree Lisa, I remember the baby books I bought, I picked out what I felt was right and ignored the rest.
I'm sorry I took the OP's post off on a tangent.
I think it is important to remember that pups with the breeder that little bit longer will have experienced less, especially if they are kennelled :-\
If Rachel's post had said 'may' instead of 'will', I might not have disagreed with her, but as I know she chooses her words carefully, that was why I disagreed.
To Legalbeagle,
I hope you find the puppy you're looking for, and fingers crossed about the one your last post mentioned :003:
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I was wondering Rachel - Gwen Bailie also advises that the ideal time for pups to leave their littermates is 6 weeks - I know that is a view which is not held on here or by the kennel club - if I am right.
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We walked away from a 12 week old puppy because it didn't feel right. Unlike the situations outlined here by breeders, she had only been out of kennel to go to vets due to a problems she'd had and as she had these "problems" she hadn't been registered with the rest of the litter. She'd not been in the house although the breeder was planning on taking her in next day so her only experience was the other dogs in the outdoor kennels. She was nervous and backed off from the breeder when she entered the kennel. She shook when we held her. I should point out we don't have a particularly quiet house to bring her home to.
She was probably better bred than the pup we ended up with and occasionally I do wonder whether we should have taken her, on the other hand our pup who is now nearly 6 months was outgoing and in the house, a farm kitchen with all the coming and going. Of course he might have been put there 30mins before we got there but his attitude to us and breeder was so different. We'd travelled a long way and as 8 weeks, was ready to go so we came home with him.
Obviously we could have done the same with the 12 week old who'd even had first jabs so I can only hope that my gut reaction was right. That said Louie is never going to make a show dog - it depends what you are looking for. The little bitch might of been the delicate little madam my daughter kind of wanted (instead the manic 1/4 worker who loves to bound (and cuddle)).
Hope you are lucky soon - I think you'll know when it is the one for you and this one wasn't meant to be.