CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: bailey rules on January 11, 2007, 09:19:48 PM
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Hi all
We have had Bailey for 7 weeks now and he is now 3months and 3weeks old he have managed to teach him
sit,stay and he is house broken but he is getting very unruly by ripping up the kitchen tiles, biting hard and genreally
not taking a telling from me or my mum we have tried everything from time outs in the kitchen, ignoring him and shouting
at him he has lots of toys and goes on long walks but he never tires so we can never get a minute. We just don't know what to do anymore please help.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
thanx Nathan
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Get a crate! Honestly, they are a life saver and mean that you can get a bit of peace knowing he is not destroying the house or coming to harm. If you do a search, there is lots of advice on here about crate training - if he is only 15 weeks he should adapt to it no problem. Sounds as if you are doing pretty well generally if he is house trained already - he must be a clever boy. Is he getting bored do you think? If so you could try some interactive toys eg Kongs, treat ball or cube, even treats tucked into a toilet roll tube - anything that makes him think and work things out will tire him out as much as walks and it will keep him busy too! ;)
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I am NO expert but simply from what I've read on here -don't take him for walks that are too long -he's only little.
As everyone on here will tell you 5 minutes walk per month so he should be having 20 mins at the most but perhaps 3 or 4 of them. Could he be like my children used to get, overtired and bloomin' horrible! :005:
I'm sure someone much more experienced will come along soon and give you proper advice!! :005:
Good luck hope it improves.
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I am NO expert but simply from what I've read on here -don't take him for walks that are too long -he's only little.
As everyone on here will tell you 5 minutes walk per month so he should be having 20 mins at the most but perhaps 3 or 4 of them. Could he be like my children used to get, overtired and bloomin' horrible! :005:
I think this is a good point - he could well be overtired. Pups will just go and go - they do not understand when they have had enough! Maybe he needs more calm, quiet playtime at home then he will settle down and be less hyper in the house ;)
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Hi all
We have had Bailey for 7 weeks now and he is now 3months and 3weeks old he have managed to teach him
sit,stay and he is house broken but he is getting very unruly by ripping up the kitchen tiles, biting hard and genreally
not taking a telling from me or my mum we have tried everything from time outs in the kitchen, ignoring him and shouting
at him he has lots of toys and goes on long walks but he never tires so we can never get a minute. We just don't know what to do anymore please help.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
thanx Nathan
Young pups can be a huge shock to the system - especially as when they first come home, they can be really sleepy and/or overwhelmed, and it can take a few weeks for their true personality to show through ;)
He's not being deliberately unruly - he's just being a puppy :005:
Please don't shout at him - he is only a baby, and chewing (tiles, hands, toes, trousers) is a natural puppy behaviour :-\ At this age ,you can expect him to forget what he learnt yesterday - and never assume he is trained; keep reinforcing the training, every day ;)
Young puppies shouldn't be exercised for too long - it can damage their joints and cause problems in later life - the recommendation if 5 minutes for each month of his life, twice or three times a day ;) You can do other things to tire him out though - training, hide a seek, or pop a bit of his food into a plastic bottle and watch him chase it around :D
I agree with the idea of a crate or playpen - when you can't be with him to closely supervise, make sure he has toileted and tempt him in with a treat or toy - make it a fun safe place for him to go :D
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Another vote for the crate it calms stella sown a lot when she's got over exited also she used to chew on the seats, one broke (not her fault lol) so we kept two of the legs and she chews on them it stopped her chewing on the furniture and she berly *sp* chews the bit she's allowed to either now. good luck :blink:
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Bailey is a similar age to Misty and tbh she's a dream compared to how Scooby was at this age. I only have to reprimand her occasionally, I just use a firm "no" and place a toy in her mouth instead, it seems to have worked cause she very rarely playbites us now :D
However, Scooby was a different matter altogether, he used to hang of the bottom of trousers and continually playbite everything and anything. It was very stressful but he soon grew out of it, so don't worry - this is normal puppy behaviour ::)
Like the others have said, shouting at him won't help, and I found the "time out" method no use either.
Just to reassure you, when Scooby was a pup he completely ripped up the kitchen floor lino (so consequently we have had Amtico fitted as it's indestructible), chewed on all the skirting boards, and chewed all the breakfast bar chairs.
Does he only behave like this when left alone, or is it all the time?
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try kongs and ice cubes, you can also use chew toys and insides of loo rolls... under 6 months your puppy will be teething. The biting and ripping things up should stop around then but some do make it into a habit.
General rule of thumb regarding walks is 5 minutes four times a day, increasing in increments of an extra 5 minutes per session with each month of age till they reach an age where their bone growth is settled usually around 18 months for larger breeds not sure for small breeds like the cockers.
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We have Zorro who is coming up to 5 months and definitely has his Dennis the Menace couple of hours each day (thankfully Bella takes the brunt of it for us, she is a patient little soul! :luv:). But we have noticed that he is far worse when he has been overstimulated, eg has had a new and exciting experience or is just over tired - he will then not settle down at all and goes on all evening. If he's being too much we stick him in the kitchen with a chew but other than that, once we've played with him or done a bit of training, if he still harrasses us he gets ignored as he needs to learn to settle down.
Bella was just full-on all the time, hanging off our trouserlegs, loads of mouthing and always wanting to be busy, I'm trying to remember what we did with her but I think it was just lots of playing and training - esp training as it used to tire her out with all the brainpower involved (she really, really concentrates!).
I think playpens are great, we used one for both of ours when there were a bit younger and it helped a lot. Zorro's a bit big to go in one now so he gets put in the kitchen with a chew or kong if he's being too much.
So basically I think you need to do little playing sessions, training sessions and get a playpen and put him in there with a nice chew to keep him busy, and really praise him for lying down chewing something he's supposed to.
Also with the reprimanding, we've found with both ours that shouting just excites them more, they respond much more to a stony look and a low, grumbly, very firm "Nooooo". Zorro is a fiend for jumping up at the moment (on us, on the sofas, you name it) so he gets told "Nooooo" and then "Floor" (which means all 4 feet on the floor) and then praised as soon as he does what we've asked. Also try anticipating his moves, so if he's about to go and chew something he shouldn't, do a sharp "AH-Ah" and quickly give him something he IS allowed to chew.
Other than that, you just have to ride it out I'm afraid... ;)
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Loki went through this when he started teething but he is calming down alot now (still have the odd hyperactive spat) but he is not 6 months yet. He knows what he can/not chew on and will try and sneak a sly chew when he thinks he is being ignored. We built up our walks and he has 2-3 25 minute walks aswell as several quick loo break walks (max 5 mins) we also play loads of fetch and tuggy wrestling games in the house and I give him loads of thinkgs to keep him occuppied (chews, stuffed kong, loo rolls with treats inside, ice cubes, plastic bottles with treats in etc etc oh and a treat ball) it keeps him happy when I have to do housework etc. I also use a crate especially if I have to go out (no ore than an hour or so) or when I am cleaning out the rat cage.
Just try some of the advice given above and things will get better ;)
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thnx for the advice we have got a crate for bailey but he just seems to cry to get out and wont let up until he gets out and thnx fo rthe kong idea i have been at my mum to get him one for ages but she wouldn't get him one until she read it yesterday so thnx but when bailey has eaten all the treats from it he loses interest and goes bak to wat he was before he was playing with it. He seems to only chew things when we are in the house as even when my mum goes out he goes quiet and goes to sleep alhough he only does this with my mum and when i leave.
thnx for the advice but more would be apprecited
thnx nathan
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Sometimes they need to get used to a crate --- put the kong in there or an item to chew but keep the door open, then when you close it just do it for a short time, and just build up from there. Mine love the crate as its like a den --- it has a blanket over 2/3 of the sides so its quite cosy for them
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Oh no....i walked my boys for an hour and 15 mins today...they too are only 17 weeks old....whoopsss.....won't do it again!! I wondered why they were sooooooooo hyperactive tonight!!
Naughty mummy.......only 20 minute walks from now on!! ph34r
Kongs are fantastic....my two love them, you can get special puppy one where the rubber is especially for teething. We also bought some teething toys that you put in the freezer to soothe their painful teeth and gums, they love those too. Its funny because I've noticed that my boys are favouring the softer toys at the moment whereas i thought they would want to chew on hard toys.
I check their teeth everyday to see if more have fallen out!! Only the teeny tiny front ones at the moment but the grown up teeth have replaced the gaps already!! :'(
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Hi, Dylan's 16 weeks and I know exactly how you feel. I too made the mistake of over-exercising him in the hope of tiring him, this made him worse.20 mins three times a day-offlead if possible so he can let off steam. I swore I would never have a crate, but after reading all the advice on her I gave in.I use ours differently tho.He loves his crate now, he has free run of the kitchen when we're out, he sleeps in his cage but we never close it unless he's misbehaving as he too whined continuously. The door only gets shut for a minute at a time. Dylan doesn't tend to destroy the house tho, he only bites people- and hard. There's nothing in the kitchen to destroy when we're out. (Pets at home have sprays to stop them chewing things but I don't know anything about them) I've found the best way is not to let him bite at all, even in play- it's too confusing at this age to say he can bite as long as it's not hard. If he bites at all, I get up and walk away. If he then bites my ankles/trousers I prise his mouth off, saying "Leave it"in a low stern tone, never shouting as it does make things worse. If this doesnt work, I say "Bed" and put him in his cage and lock the door. We usually have to go thru this a good few times before he gets the message. We've had to do this for weeks and it's only just taking effect. Another mistake we made was to keep saying "Well that doesnt work" and try something else. Persevere for weeks with one method, all do the same thing, and he'll eventually get the message. I've started puppy training and I'm training him every day, so I'm finding if he's trained in all these other things (especially the lie-down) he will accept you more and more as boss. Just in the last couple of days "leave it" has started to work, but it must be exactly the right "I mean business" tone, he won't do it for the kids- they havent mastered the tone yet- their voices are too squeaky! They take the mickey outof my put on deep voice! He gets a treat if he does leave it when told and lots of praise. He is improving extremely slowly, a combination of getting older and being trained I think, but he still has daily "berserk" times when I have to lock him up, but less and less often. Hark at me like I'm the expert! Only been at this a few weeks! Good luck and keep me posted
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He is improving extremely slowly, a combination of getting older and being trained I think, but he still has daily "berserk" times when I have to lock him up, but less and less often. Hark at me like I'm the expert! Only been at this a few weeks! Good luck and keep me posted
Is this 'locking up' meant to be a timeout --- you have to be careful of the pup associating the crate as a punishment (crates should never be used as a punishment --- they should be perceived as safe havens where a pup/dog sleeps or eats a chew/kong in there where they are out of harms way. If a pup requires a timeout then its best to do them in places other than a crate and only for a few moments (you may have to do more than one) then once they have calmed down may be place them in the crate with a toy or chew
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Hello all,
If you're finding that once the kong is empty, he loses interest (smart pup), you could try smearing some marmite, or squeezy cheese on the inside and then putting the treats in.
I would also try to limit playing tuggy games at the moment - this can overstimulate some puppies, and also make their teeth very sore.
Don't worry, he'll get over it - and you WILL survive :005:
Ali
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I would also try to limit playing tuggy games at the moment - this can overstimulate some puppies
Yes I had to stop tug games completely for a while with Ruby for precisely this reason as she became quite aggressive while playing them --- now she's an adult I play tug games and its never a problem
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i got the crate after receiving advice to get one for time out. unless it is locked, there would be no time out as he wouldnt stay in it. there is no need to have it locked at any other time as he has run of the kitchen and only chews people, not furniture. after 6 weeks of using it- he still goes in it and loves it as his haven. he is clever enough to know that it gets locked when he's misbehaved. Simple - door closed-naughty. same effect as putting him out of the room- he is excluded. this has had no effect on him loving it to sleep in etc. i think this is far better than having him locked in it all day.i don't see how using it this way is any different from thise who keep them locked in it all day- hey don'y assciate it as punishment.
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ps, re previous post. I'm quite concerned about this as I got the crate in the first place against my better judgement.I'm confused now.If I'm at home all day andI have a crate so that he can have time-out when he needs it, how should it be used? Surely I shouldnt lock the door when I'm at home with him for no reason ? I can't now think why it was recommended for time out if i don't use it the way i described. before we got the crate,i would put him in the porch for time out but he was eating the carpet in frustration. Believe me if you saw him in mid-frenzy, you'd know how much he needs time out. Are you saying that cages are only ok if he's locked in at other times too?
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ps, re previous post. I'm quite concerned about this as I got the crate in the first place against my better judgement.I'm confused now.If I'm at home all day andI have a crate so that he can have time-out when he needs it, how should it be used? Surely I shouldnt lock the door when I'm at home with him for no reason ? I can't now think why it was recommended for time out if i don't use it the way i described. before we got the crate,i would put him in the porch for time out but he was eating the carpet in frustration. Believe me if you saw him in mid-frenzy, you'd know how much he needs time out. Are you saying that cages are only ok if he's locked in at other times too?
When I mean 'timeouts' I meant the sort where the pup is no longer responding to 'no', or ouch or other things aren't working and its just a way of removing them from the room for a few seconds/minute to stop the sort of behaviour you talk about (I found that while ouch and 'no' and distraction generally worked during the day the frenzied excited behaviour where you continually get nipped because they're overexcited was dealt with best by quietly placing them out the room I was in for a few seconds then allowing them back in and if they contiune then do the same again). What I meant was not to may be put them in the crate and lock them up as a consequence of this behaviour, as they may begin to see it as punishment --- at the point they stop showing the unwanted behviour then put them in the crate so it doesn't continue.
Simple - door closed-naughty. same effect as putting him out of the room- he is excluded
By doing this it reinforces the crate as a punishment. I think the crossed wires are because others suggested using a crate to stop him chewing per se as they thought that was the problem. Crates are very useful to help stop chewing if you're not in the room, they are useful to help with housetraining and just generally (these are all uses designed to stop unwanted behaviour not lock them up for it) and yes the door can be locked especially if they are for preventing him from getting out.
People weren't suggesting they locked the pups in all day but they used them throughout the day for all sorts of reasons --- ie for a few minutes here and there. I used it 1st to make sure Ruby didn't hurt herself when I was out the room as my house is openplan (I work from home so it wasn't for long), then with Wilf to give Ruby a break from him annoying her, have also used mine when either have had ops, every time a foster dog comes in the house the crate is used for the new dog especially overnight when I can't supervise them.
I found my pups (my own cockers and foster pups) would be at their most manic at certain times of the day and learnt to pre-empt that by may be settling them with a chew or kong in the crate, and the rest of the time I dealt with the biting by using 'ouch' (very loudly/exaggerated way) or putting something in their mouth. Obviously if I'd misjudged when the manic time began and these didn't work then I'd do very short timeouts (a few seconds the back in the room and so on). Distraction also helps by engaging them in other activities.
If you use timeout outside the room is there any where else you can put him (it only has to be a very short period anyway)
We've all been there to varying degrees --- Ruby was your preverbial snapping crocodile, Wilf less so, and some of the foster pups better or a lot worse. It gets better but only with patience and acting calmy and confidently
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Locking him in the crate for bad behaviour was the one and only reason we decided to buy one. As there is someone at home all day, there is no need to use it for anything else. We were advised (on here I think) to make sure he got used to the crate as a haven by putting his favourite things in it, food etc letting him sleep there for a while before using it for time out. We did all of this first, therefore he still loves his crate even though he has timeout in there.Does this mean then that no-one should be using the crate to lock them up when "no" walk away etc hasn't worked? How can it be time out if it isn't locked, he'd just walk back out.I still can't see how my use of the crate is wrong. The only difference with us is that he isn't locked in it when we're out!. Reading this back, it sounds like I'm being stroppy, but honest, I don't mean to be, I really need to understand this. Maybe the difference is the "time-out" I do it exactly as you described, when all other means of stopping him biting everyone has failed. He's only in for a minute, as soon as he whimpers, he's out. Sometimes he doesnt whimper, he just goes to sleep cos he's had enough. Honest, he goes to bed in his crate himself when he's tired or the house is too hectic, it's still his haven.
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If your baby is crying to come out of crate, try 'good association' at first, like feeding him in there. Put it in the room where you are so he can see you and carry on as normal. Other times, put him in it, hide and wait for that moment when there is a break in the cry, then let him out. His reward for being quiet is you giving attention. Build this up bit by bit until he will happily stay in it for an hour with a kong/chew.
At night he cannot hurt himself nor destry your house and does wonders with house training.
Have trained many puppies this way and makes ownership heaven instead of hell. Everyone is helpful on here and are right, it won't last forever.
Try to be calm around him and he will take the lead from his 'pack leader', just as him mum will have taught him. Hyper games will make your prob worse. He will settle, be strong :-*
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I can only speak for myself - but I bought a crate so that when I wasn't around to supervise Molo (showering, shopping, cooking etc) - I could provide him with a safe place to be..........pups can get into trouble so fast, even when you are in the same room as them ::) A chewed cable, or mistakenly left item could lead to a painful and panicked trip to the vet or worse :(
Because I wanted to ensure that he settled in there, I did not use it as his "time out" space........I did not want him to associate the crate with the "end of something fun", but rather I wanted to crate to be considered a space that was enjoyable, too ;) I never "put" him in - I threw a tasty treat in for him to enjoy once he walked in of his own accord. I also used it as a house training aid - he cried to go out when he needed to wee/poo at night rather than soil his crate, so I got up and went and let him out ;)
We did use time-out - but I would leave the room, leaving Molo alone for a few seconds - closing the baby-gate if necessary to prevent him following me. This prevented any confrontation as I tried to physically move Molo in some way.
I never returned to him if he whimpered or whined - I tried to return before it got to that stage (20 or 30 seconds at most), and if he did get unsettled and begin to bark/yap, then I would wait for a break (for breath, sometimes) to go to him, so that he knew I would return once he was quiet. ;)
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thank you all but if he's still quite happy to use the crate as his haven, even when it is also being used for time out, i really don't see the point to going back to sticking him in the porch,or getting the whole family to leave the room every time he goes off on one. I understand the need for positive association, as I said, if he responds to "leave it" when he goes to bite, he gets a treat or a fuss. If he doesn't, he goes in the crate. Kids can be sent to their room for punishment and also use it as their haven. I don't think training a very aggressive puppy can rely on positive association training only-safety for the kids has to come in to this and puppies also have to learn that there are consequences to ignoring commands and biting someone. If they don't learn this now as puppies, it will be too late later on. If a puppy has to spend a lot of time locked in the crate for other reasons, eg owners out to work and worried about chewing then obviously using it my way would not work. I really think there is more than one way to use the crate. My way is working for me insofar as I can calm Dylan down in it while he still loves it as his bed. I don't have to worry about him chewing anything, he just sleeps in his crate if we're out -door open. Everyone's circumstances are different and we shouldn't generalise. Maybe it would work for Bailey if he doesnt need to be locked in during the day.
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I don't have to worry about him chewing anything, he just sleeps in his crate if we're out -door open.
......for now ;); the wonderful thing about dogs is that they have "free will" and personality and he may well decide one day to rip all the lino up, chew a chairleg or dig a hole in the wall, and those are the more harmless things he can do ph34r Especially if he has a lot of energy, it is likely that he will, one day ;)
Before anyone leaves a pup alone in a room unsupervised, it is always recommended that a check of the room is carried out to ensure there are no stray items that could harm him (not only cables, but foodstuffs, household cleaners, and things like cd's which can be chewed into sharp shards ::)).
Molo was never a big chewer; partly because we used a crate/pen to prevent him learning this behaviour as a pup - but despite that, one day last year I shut him in the kitchen while I bathed lil'bit and when I came back downstairs he had destroyed the kitchen rug :005: I'm sure that he'd not even noticed it up until then......I think he was reminding me that he had opinions too ph34r
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There's nothing in the kitchen he can hurt himself on/destroy, of course I would check this. I wonder how they survived before cages?!
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There's nothing in the kitchen he can hurt himself on/destroy, of course I would check this. I wonder how they survived before cages?!
Many puppies ended up stuck in a shed or a backyard - or disappeared overnight :(
Of course, the lack of mobile phone chargers, remote controls, gameboys, i-pods etc also helped ::)
Edited to add: I think there were far more realistic expectations of dog/puppies too - many children who were nipped by their family dog when I was a child were given a clip round the ear and asked what they had done to annoy it; the dog wasn't considered to blame ;)