CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Janice-Dylan on January 14, 2007, 12:21:45 AM
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I'd be interested to hear different opinions on castration. My vet has a cocker and she had her's castrated at 6 mths to stop him peeing constantly in the house-seemed strange to me but what do I know. She also mentioned she had thought it would calm him down as he was a little aggressive but she still can't trust him around small children. Some have said not to as he will lose his personality, others have said it made no difference at all. Is it down to the individual dog? I'm hoping I won't have to as his aggression is easing off slightly (everyone has argued that his biting is not aggression, I must video him in full swing one day, crouched down, teeth bared, snarling, lunging - hardly puppy mouthing) Things may be completely dfferent in a couple of months (he's 4 mths now) but opionions greatly appreciated.
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Dylan's behaviour is perfectly normal for a puppy - he's not showing aggression, he's trying to play with you as he would another puppy. If you have ever seen a litter of puppies playing, it can look like world war 3 with all the lunging and snarling but it's all play ;) Neutering him at 6 months will not stop him behaving like a puppy or calm him down - that's a fallacy I'm afraid. Castration will often help in behavioural problems triggered by male hormones (eg male on male aggression) but it's not a cure all for other behavioural problems. If you do a search for other threads on castration and neutering, you'll find lots of opinions for and against which may help with your decision.
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Mine were both just as you describe but with guidance and patience and training they're now fantastic adults --- having a pup is a shock to the system at times and can often be not as some expect.
I've had terrier pups in the house and they were far worse in this respect than any cocker pups I've seen, and two together really do sound like they're going to kill each other. However, if any of them tried this with my two adult dogs they were eventually told off if it got out of hand, which is how they learn. They would also act like this with me too but were taught otherwise.
These things take time and your cocker isn't really going to be 'grown' up until he's about 2 years old so lots of other surprises in store until then
Wilf has been neutered but I wouldn't say its changed his character and he's still the same fantastic dog he ever was
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Castration will often help in behavioural problems triggered by male hormones (eg male on male aggression) but it's not a cure all for other behavioural problems.
and even then an owner has to put in the work and training that's needed to accompany this
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thank you all. I really don't have any problems with Dylan's hyperactivity at all. What worries me is never being able to have him around children. At the moment m little nieces and nephews are avoiding visiting because they're scared of him, which is a real shame as they love puppies at tha age. He pounces on them and goes for their faces. He gets excited, I try to pick him up to take him away and he goes absolutely berserk! Family members who know dogs have expressed worries over his behaviour, as he is like something out of the exorcist with head swirling, barking, growling, trying to bite anything and anyone etc and throwing himself against his cage and biting it when i put him in. he is even like this when i take him to the park, he's off the lead, starts running around, gets a bit excited and starts going for me. he's jumping up, lunging, biting snarling an growling. Hits bites go very deep, i now have quite a few deep gouges in my hands,arms and legs. the only thing to do is to hold him tight and stroke him and whisper to him until he calms, it's like once he reaches a certain level of excitement, he goes into a complete uncontrollable frenzy. these incidents are becoming fewer, maybe only a couple of times a day now, i'm unsure if this is down to the amount of taining we're doing or his age. i won't have him castrated unless he doesn't get any better and there's a very high chance that it will improve things.
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If he doesn't ever meet children while he's young, he will never learn how to behave around them will he?
If you can't persuade your neice and nephew to visit, then I think you should make a huge effort to enlist the help of some dog-savvy kids. And soon. Just so he is "socialised to children" and can learn how to behave around them.
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my own youngest is 12, her and her friends are old enough to be trusted to put him out of the room if he gets out of hand.my nieces and nephews are aged 1 to 5. I can't see their parents coming over at my request " he needs to get used to wee ones,bring them over even if they're scared" At the moment, if my neighbour's 5 year old comes in, i have to keep dylan on a lead, i can't take chances for the sake of him getting used to kids, especially in the current climate.i've seen the damage he's done to me, i can't take the risk of him doing the same to a child, he would easliy have a small nose off.
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I can sympathise with you ;) The little girl next door (6 at the time) was and still is wary of dogs (thanks to her mum) >:(
I thought it would be great to let her in to play with the puppy :005: He was a total >:D and not at all the cute pup that I thought he'd be ;) Needless to say she stayed away.
He has however met lots of children at the park - from newborn to school age and is really good with them. He's also recently met my friends 2 yr old grandson who stayed for a few hours and the worst he did was pinch his toys :005:
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Yes, there's something about little ones who are more at their level. They must think they're just other puppies to wrestle with and bite. Wee ones can't control them and tend to squeal and run which makes things worse. Good to know that he has a good chance of getting over this though. Meantime, I'll just keep him on the lead while they're around (if I can persuade them to come back!), that way I can still control him.
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I can't see their parents coming over at my request " he needs to get used to wee ones,bring them over even if they're scared"
:005: ph34r :005: - Lil'bit was three when we brought Molo home - she had no prior experience of dogs and was terrified of him ph34r :005: ph34r
After she spent the first two weeks sitting on the back of the sofa when they were in the same room together, we bit the bullet and forced the issue ph34r We taught her how to "stand like a statue" and then let Molo into the room, with one of us at the other end - with squeakies and raggies and other exciting toys ;)
There were tears at times to start with (from all of us ph34r) - but it really is worth persisting with if you can explain to their parents that unless he gets used to them now, and they learn how to behave around him (not running and squealing) then they will never be able to enjoy him, as neither the humans or dog will learn :D Like you, I used a lead, or house line, at first; and even once he wasn't wearing it all the time in the house, I would often put it back on if he and lil'bit were sharing the sofa, or floor, as it gives an extra element of control to the situation ::)
His behaviour sounds perfectly normal for a 4 months old pup, and imo it's way to early to consider neutering - but I do think that a good training class can help you learn how to calm him down (there are several techniques) and begin to teach him self-control ;)
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thanks, i was thinking about in the long term, just needed to know if the castration has ever helped anyone with an aggressive dog
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thanks, i was thinking about in the long term, just needed to know if the castration has ever helped anyone with an aggressive dog
IMO, the behaviour you describe is not aggressive ::)
Also imo - an aggressive dog should never be neutered before being assessed by an experienced behaviourist - some forms of aggression can be made worse by neutering :-\
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If I had a penny........
I swear if I can work out how, I'll show you Dylan in full swing (although I can't imagine holding a video camera while that is going on)I really don't want the castration, not now, later or ever, I just asked if it helped anyone in case it comes to that. I have no doubt that there's a good chance that age and training will help Dylan outgrow this behaviour but as far as "not aggression" you'd maybe best see it first. Dylan shows all the behaviours classed as aggression in an adult dog, just because he is young doesn't give the situation any less cause for concern. I can assure you he's not mouthing, we all have the cuts and scars to prove it. I don't understand why everyone gets all uppity every time you describe a puppy as aggressive. Even if he's young he's still behaving exactly like an aggressive adult and the behaviour needs to be dealt with just the same.
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I don't understand why everyone gets all uppity every time you describe a puppy as aggressive. Even if he's young he's still behaving exactly like an aggressive adult and the behaviour needs to be dealt with just the same.
Nobody's getting uppity Janice - we're just trying to reassure you that Dylan is not aggressive, he's a puppy doing all the maddening things that puppies do. Of course you've got cuts and scars - puppies have horrid needle teeth which puncture our fragile human skin (you should see my hands when we've got a litter :lol:). This doesn't mean you have an aggressive puppy and you can't judge a puppy as you would an adult which you appear to be doing. Please don't take offence when people try to give you advice - we're only trying to help you. If you really are worried about Dylan's behaviour, then contact a reputable trainer/behaviourist and ask them to come and observe him. We can't see Dylan and can only go on our own experiences with bitey crocodile puppies but perhaps if you get a professional in, they can reassure you in a way we cannot.
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please don't take offence janice, he does sound like a completely normal over-exuberant working cocker puppy. He is treating you as another littermate (you've seen how rough puppies play with each other) and this takes time to teach him not to mouth or bite humans. I think it's so important to socialise dylan now with children - and the suggestions given by rachel are great.
you could always have him on a houselead when children are around to monitor his behaviour.
also, what do you feed him? some foods contribute to more 'hyper' behaviour and it can help to change foods.
Have you got a copy of 'the Perfect Puppy' by Gwen Baillie - it is a really good book to read ;) - sign up for puppy classes too, the socialisation will do dylan good, and will ease your mind about dylan's behaviour (there's always one pup in the class that appears more badly behaved than yours :005:)
I know you feel his behaviour is aggressive and that we are underestimating him, but we do understand. I think to set your mind at ease you should contact a good behaviourist or trainer in your area.
am also sceptical about your vet - seems very odd neutering a puppy so young for marking/weeing in the house....very odd....
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please don't take offence janice, he does sound like a completely normal over-exuberant working cocker puppy. He is treating you as another littermate (you've seen how rough puppies play with each other) and this takes time to teach him not to mouth or bite humans. I think it's so important to socialise dylan now with children - and the suggestions given by rachel are great.
you could always have him on a houselead when children are around to monitor his behaviour.
also, what do you feed him? some foods contribute to more 'hyper' behaviour and it can help to change foods.
Have you got a copy of 'the Perfect Puppy' by Gwen Baillie - it is a really good book to read ;) - sign up for puppy classes too, the socialisation will do dylan good, and will ease your mind about dylan's behaviour (there's always one pup in the class that appears more badly behaved than yours :005:)
I know you feel his behaviour is aggressive and that we are underestimating him, but we do understand. I think to set your mind at ease you should contact a good behaviourist or trainer in your area.
am also sceptical about your vet - seems very odd neutering a puppy so young for marking/weeing in the house....very odd....
also if you read back through the posts on here you'll find many who were in a similar position struggling with a puppy and then coming through it the other end, then despairing at their adolescent antics and again coming through it, and then either wondering what all the fuss was about or never wanting a pup again but glad they have the adult dog. We have been there honest and don't need video etc. as I have had similar experiences so not trying to belittle your problem but saying it does get better as most of us survived.
It would be worth starting training classes if you can
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Yes, we have done and are making some headway, all is not lost! Was just looking for opinions
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hi,
i`d like to addy my experience recently,our cocker is now just over 4 months,but about 6 weeks ago he went through a stage were for no reason he would get himself into his own little world and lung at whoever was nearby and sink his razor sharp teeth into the closest part of the body,he was aggressive in his behaviour to the degree that i was concerned for my children.this normal lasted about 20 minutes & that was that until the next day,but he had put the doubt in our mind about when he going to lash out next.
this went on for a few days and to be honest i lost all trust in the dog.
i posted on this forum and got some good advice,they way we cured him was doing the following.
when he was starting with his aggressive behaviour etc,i shouted at him NO & turned away from him & left the room ( the whole family left if they were also in the room)
sadly one time he got me in the face when i was sorting his cage out & rightly or wrongly i did smack him on the nose,he got a fright & sat in the corner of the room.
when we returned to the room a short while later he was a good as gold,we did this for a few days and eventually we just needed to say no or distract him with a toy.
but now he`s fine,he does still like to chew your hand etc,but i feel 100% safer
hope this helps,but brambles still getting his nuts off at 6 months regardless ;)
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Thanks for that, it's just sometimes when people continually tell you that you don't have an aggression problem with your dog and that their behaviour is normal puppy behaviour it can be very frustrating. I've known a few puppies in my time and have never seen behaviour like this. I am coping okay with it, I understand that it will pass, but I also understand that if I don't put in the work with the training, it won't get any better. Quite a few people have told me to give him a good smack, I have resisted this but like you, once, when I was at the kitchen sink , he came running up behind me out of the blue and sunk his teeth very deep into my calf. I didn't have time to think and swiped him off me, it was bloody sore and an automatic reaction to the shock. I regretted it, but it did take him a couple of days to resume the behaviour, it makes you wonder. Anyway, I don't want a puppy who cowers when I go near him. I was only asking about the castration think, if worst case scenario, he gets older and no amount of training will cure him, I want to be prepared for what i will have to do then because getting rid of him is not an option. I live in fear that he will maim a child as, at the moment, he cannot be trusted around anyone without a lead on. I've been to the training classes and Dylan was the only one snarling,biting and jumping up at the lead! Can't blame for being at tad worried.
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Thanks for that, it's just sometimes when people continually tell you that you don't have an aggression problem with your dog and that their behaviour is normal puppy behaviour it can be very frustrating. I've known a few puppies in my time and have never seen behaviour like this. I am coping okay with it, I understand that it will pass, but I also understand that if I don't put in the work with the training, it won't get any better. Quite a few people have told me to give him a good smack, I have resisted this but like you, once, when I was at the kitchen sink , he came running up behind me out of the blue and sunk his teeth very deep into my calf. I didn't have time to think and swiped him off me, it was bloody sore and an automatic reaction to the shock. I regretted it, but it did take him a couple of days to resume the behaviour, it makes you wonder. Anyway, I don't want a puppy who cowers when I go near him. I was only asking about the castration think, if worst case scenario, he gets older and no amount of training will cure him, I want to be prepared for what i will have to do then because getting rid of him is not an option. I live in fear that he will maim a child as, at the moment, he cannot be trusted around anyone without a lead on. I've been to the training classes and Dylan was the only one snarling,biting and jumping up at the lead! Can't blame for being at tad worried.
i really think you should call a qualified behaviourist sooner rather than later...from all your posts it really seems that you're worried, stressed and fearful about his behaviour - any advice we seem to offer seems to be dismissed as us not taking dylan's 'aggression' seriously, and us not understanding aggression in pups. Your frustration and stress will also be clearly evident to dylan, and is likely to exacerbate his stressed out behaviour.
i don't agree with anyone smacking their dogs, and I'm not sure after reading this in what form your training will take. If you think that your 'swiping' him off your leg sorted out his behaviour for a couple of days i really beg to differ....he was probably avoiding you out of fear.
i apologise if this sounds sharp, but it looks to me as if you're getting yourself into a vicious circle, and that no-one, least of all your pup, will benefit in the long run :-\
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Thanks for that, it's just sometimes when people continually tell you that you don't have an aggression problem with your dog and that their behaviour is normal puppy behaviour it can be very frustrating. I've known a few puppies in my time and have never seen behaviour like this. I am coping okay with it, I understand that it will pass, but I also understand that if I don't put in the work with the training, it won't get any better. Quite a few people have told me to give him a good smack, I have resisted this but like you, once, when I was at the kitchen sink , he came running up behind me out of the blue and sunk his teeth very deep into my calf. I didn't have time to think and swiped him off me, it was bloody sore and an automatic reaction to the shock. I regretted it, but it did take him a couple of days to resume the behaviour, it makes you wonder. Anyway, I don't want a puppy who cowers when I go near him. I was only asking about the castration think, if worst case scenario, he gets older and no amount of training will cure him, I want to be prepared for what i will have to do then because getting rid of him is not an option. I live in fear that he will maim a child as, at the moment, he cannot be trusted around anyone without a lead on. I've been to the training classes and Dylan was the only one snarling,biting and jumping up at the lead! Can't blame for being at tad worried.
ph34r ph34r I don't like puppies ph34r ph34r
I didn't enjoy Molo's puppy stage really, and unless my circumstances drastically change, I will not have another pup again (famous last words :005:)
What I did to survive it was to ensure that I gave him every possible chance of success to be good - and remove as many possibilities to fail as I possibly could. ;)
For instance, you say that Dylan sank his teeth into your calf when you had your back to him while standing at the sink. He didn't bite you because he was p**sed off with you; he bit you because he wanted to play and interact with you (you are the best thing in his life, after all), and the only way he knows how to engage in play is to bite :005: Even adult dogs do this when they are playing with each other - one will run in and grab and ear, or leg, and then dive away again as a way of encouraging the other dog to join in. My suggestion (from the School of Puppy Survival) is for you to do the dishes after he has had a play and pee; shut him in his crate for half an hour or so - then he won't be faced with the temptation to engage you in play ;)
I know you have reservations about the crate, so maybe you could consider a puppy-play-pen instead - but if it prevents him from learning bad behaviour, and protects your ankles when you cannot have your eyes on him, then it is good for both of you :)
If you give a puppy opportunities to fail, it will become more difficult for you to teach him to succeed - each time he does something that you consider unacceptable, he is rewarded by the success of his action, so the behaviour is reinforced. This cycle can easily be avoided by removing as many opportunities for him to fail as possible - and rewarding him for the behaviour you do want to see ;) You said "he can't be trusted" without a lead on - but a houseline is not a negative thing; it is a standard piece of training equipment in many homes, and not something to be avoided. Don't make it more difficult for you and him by considering the use of training aids as a failure, or only to be used as a last resort ;) Without training aids such as a clicker, long line, houseline etc, I'd be in a loony asylum :005:
A dog is born to be a dog - and has to be taught how to behave in a pet home, and taught what behaviour is acceptable and what is not........to expect a 4 month old puppy to know the rules, and to label him aggressive because he doesn't, is a huge amount of pressure to put on yourself, and the puppy :(
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Another one here I'm afraid, to confirm this is totally normal puppy behaviour. I take it you only have one dog. People with one dog "suffer" much more than those of us with multi dog households - my first cocker was just like yours is, and I can remember thinking is this ever going to stop - she bit my uncle during a Christmas visit - that went down like a lead balloon I can tell you !!!!
However - my subsequent puppy learnt from her (she was an adult by then), and then the others learnt from Tilly..... it's much easier when another dog tells them not to bite - unfortunately we don't have the same communication skills !!!!!
If you lived in Surrey I'd invite you and your puppy round for some "socialising" - so you can see how normal it is !!!!!! how many puppies have you had out of interest ? do you have any children yourself ?
Castration doesn't make puppies grow up by the way, which is what you are waiting for - your pup to grow up...
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I've known a few puppies in my time and have never seen behaviour like this.
Barney, who's my first cocker, threw up far more things that I worried about than both my other two pups put together! I'm sure I've seen written on here that people who have had alot of experience with dogs and puppies have been challenged when they got a cocker pup.
I'm sure not all cocker pups have been challenging, but I've read about a fair few on here who have. So you are not alone.
but I also understand that if I don't put in the work with the training, it won't get any better.
Too true! Training a pup is hard work. It needs to start from the day you bring them home, and then every day. This is essential and part and parcel of being a puppy owner.
Quite a few people have told me to give him a good smack, I have resisted this but like you, once, when I was at the kitchen sink , he came running up behind me out of the blue and sunk his teeth very deep into my calf. I didn't have time to think and swiped him off me, it was bloody sore and an automatic reaction to the shock. I regretted it, but it did take him a couple of days to resume the behaviour, it makes you wonder. Anyway, I don't want a puppy who cowers when I go near him.
Smacking is a big no-no. No matter how frustrated and angry you might feel. I'm sure we've all had time when we've been so frustrated and have really had to take some deep breaths. Please remember it doesn't take much of that treatment for your dog to become fearful of you. :-\
I was only asking about the castration think, if worst case scenario, he gets older and no amount of training will cure him, I want to be prepared for what i will have to do then because getting rid of him is not an option. I live in fear that he will maim a child as, at the moment, he cannot be trusted around anyone without a lead on. I've been to the training classes and Dylan was the only one snarling,biting and jumping up at the lead! Can't blame for being at tad worried.
IMO I do think his behaviour is part and parcel of puppyhood. All puppies differ, so may be calm pups and others can bounce of the wall 24/7 (I've had one of each)
Training is the key here, be consistent with it. Inconsistency will make things worse. Stick with your training classes, its all new to Dylan so give him time to settle in to them. If you feel that he can't be trusted around people then take appropriate precautions.
I don't think that castration would resolve this problem. :-\ Both my boys were castrated around 6/7 months. Barney did have a phase of snapping at dogs which lasted a couple of weeks. It may have started following an incident where he had become frightened out on a walk when he was startled by a man walking his dogs (who were on lead) OH didn't tell me about this until weeks after. >:( ::) But he did say his snapping started just after that.
I would normally neuter my dogs as a matter of course, but I couldn't make my mind up with Barney because of the coat change that would follow. In the end I decided to castrate him. He hasn't snapped at any dog since, but we'll never know if thats because he was castrated or not.
I do understand why you a a tad worried. as I said before I sent many panic email to my dog trainer friend about Barney. Every single time the reply was "this is normal puppy behaviour" together with advice on how to deal with it.
Do training with him every day and take him to training classes, and stick with it......it will get better. ;)
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Milo is 7 months and is getting neutered today (dropped him off at the vets this morning).
I can't say whether or not it would help with any behavioural problems and I certainly don't expect it to either. Milo also does the full on growling and barking while jumping up and biting thing. At first I did think he was being agressive but then I noticed that his tail was wagging the whole time and that he usually will only do it after he's not long woke up and is in full on play mode. A time out (or 4 :005:) usually puts a stop to it.