CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Other Activities => Topic started by: Cob-Web on March 26, 2007, 10:07:24 PM
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I have come away from Agility classes with the advice that I should significantly reduce the number of verbal commands I use ph34r
I am always very careful not to keep repeating a command, but I do command him at each jump/obstacle ::) I tried a run without "talking" to him (just using hand signals) and the difference was AMAZING :o Molo stayed focused nearly all the way around, and when I lost his focus briefly once, a single "COME" from me and he was at my side immediately :D
I am intending to try and transfer this into day to day life as well - I know that I tell him what I want him to do most of the time, combined with hand signals, and so this week I am going to make an effort to just use my hands :shades:
Has anyone done this - and if so, was it successful? What should I be looking out for? It makes sense to me that Molo should become more focused on me, as he has to look at me for cues - and any verbal cues I do use will become more effective......but what are the downsides? Could it effect the bond between us; could he begin to ignore me?
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In Ben's first puppy class - we were told not to repeat a command but just wait until they did it! He gave an example of waiting to cross the road and an owner saying sit- sit- sit ................. until the dog did it. This just reinforced that the dog didn't have to do it first time.
I now say things once and often have to wait until he's exhausted all possibilities so that he hits the right one! In agility it's hard not to repeat commands due to me! When I get him to wait I seem to tell him 1/2 dozen times (OK maybe 2 or 3) but it's still too much ;) If I do go further with agility then I'm going to have to get myself in order :shades:
As for hand signals in everyday life - I do use these with Ben. Our clicker course taught us and the pups to use hand signals only before introducing a cue word. Ben still does sit, down, wait, stop and spin with hand signals only. It hasn't affected his bond with me at all - just the opposite! He now watches me far more intently ;)
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I am reading this with interest. What signals are you using as I would love to expand on our repetoir.
It looks amazing when it works, you must be chuffed to bits. Team effort, well done.
R's
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I'm not very good with consistency of words, in training I'm fine, in competition I say all sorts of different things. My word for the contact in training is 'stop', my word for the contact in competition is usually 'steady, you stop, down, stay, wait' :lol:.
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I am reading this with interest. What signals are you using as I would love to expand on our repetoir.
It involves a lot of pointing :005:
I point up to the sky (at a slight angle towards the jump, not straight up over my head) for "OVER" a hurdle. I point directly at the entrance contact points of the walk and A-frame and use a flat hand in front of him for the exit contact points ;)
I point with an arm straight and parallel to the ground for the tunnel entrance ;) I am working towards hands clasped behind my back for the weaves, but that is a few weeks away :005:
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I've done this a little with mine at home. For us, pointing downwards is sit, flat palm downwards is down, flat palm towards the dog for stay, fingers open like claws for wait etc. If we need a command I just use it once, as 9.999 times out of 10 the dog heard you the first time, giving a small cough if we need a little reminder.
In agility we have the additional help of it being all about body language, the dog reads our body for where to go next. Some of the best courses we have run have been in total silence, just making the most of communicating using the body. Your body language overules a verbal command, which is a good job if you're like me and get your lefts and rights muddled on a complex course. Never used to, but have done a couple of times recently. Must be an age thing! :005:
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what happens when you have a tunnel under a dog walk, if you remove a clear tunnel word then your dog needs to look to you for confirmation of what obstacle to take (assuming your dog is working on from you). The tunnel is one I am very clear about because I want my dogs to work on from a jump into a tunnel without turning back to see what obstacle they need to take?? Same goes for the weave, if you have a jump weave you command weave as early as possible to get the dog looking for the weave from the landing point??
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The voice isn't totally redundant, you still use it for getting their attention, ie if you have sent them through a tunnel and then changed sides you could use it whilst they are in the tunnel, so they know where to go as they come out and you get a sharper turn etc. I do usually still use my voice anyway, I find it hard not to!! :005:
For a tunnel under an a-frame; if your voice says tunnel and your body is saying a-frame - the dog will go over the a-frame. A lot of what the dog reads from our body language, we are not even aware of. That's why it is very useful to get someone to video us, so we can see just what we are doing.
So for instance, if the dog is on my left coming head on to an a-frame with tunnel entrance on the right, you could turn your shoulders right and send your dog towards the tunnel. Although alternatively what I might do is turn slightly towards him with my right arm tucked into my waist, thus dropping my right shoulder; which will pull him towards me, then immediately pick up with my left arm using an underarm motion sending him to the tunnel (pehaps similar to throwing a bowling ball). Timing and position are the key! Interestingly dogs pick up on the signals we unconsciously give, so before we have actually done as above, he will have it sussed.
If you can imagine your body language from the dog's perspective had you wanted the dog to go up the a-frame, would have been very different, much more upright, and to the left.
Working as a partnership the dog doesn't have to be looking at you to read your body language. Try it and see how you get on. :D
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Oh, this is a bit posh for us. We have finger up for sit, flat hand from left to right for down, arms open for come. palm to dog for stay. I am now working on a signal for, get your backside out of one of your many smelly beds and push the hoover round for a change!
Seriously, I cannot get her to jump over things. I have started saying HupHup when she gets on the bed or the sofa and then try and take that command out to the field with us to get her over styles and hunt jumps. I have also tried walking off and leaving her in the hope she will try and get over herself. I have even cleared two fields before returning to find her sat the other side of the style waiting for me to lift her over. Never a dog more aptly named....MUPPET!
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Seriously, I cannot get her to jump over things. I have started saying HupHup when she gets on the bed or the sofa and then try and take that command out to the field with us to get her over styles and hunt jumps. I have also tried walking off and leaving her in the hope she will try and get over herself. I have even cleared two fields before returning to find her sat the other side of the style waiting for me to lift her over. Never a dog more aptly named....MUPPET!
Molo won't do stiles - and it has taken over a year to get him to jump into the back of the car and even now it is not consistant ;)
Despite that, he will leap Agility hurdles with ease - but he can see clearly his landing zone, which I think is the problem ;)
Spangle - your comments have made me realise that the body language thing is almost involuntary, there are loads of cues that I am giving him before and at each obstacle without ne even noticing them...I must try and think about it a bit more; and I love the idea of videoing it; must ask OH to come along :005:
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barkley's trainer is all for non-verbal communication with dogs to the extent that she recommends not talking unneccesarily to your dog at all, particularly whilst out walking. must admit i haven't taken it that far as often barkley is the only being around that i can talk to during the daytime! am very aware that he is ignoring most of it though and therefore really should try to stop! :005:
good luck with molo though it sounds like it is already working well. :) i don't think it will have a detrimental effect on your relationship. if anything, he probably finds signals much clearer to understand and having to pay closer attention to you can't be a bad thing. :)
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We watched some of the agility at Crufts and was amazed but just how much the dogs picked up fom their handlers body language. ;)
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Could it effect the bond between us; could he begin to ignore me?
I know it isnt the same, but I work Storm with minimal commands in her obedience. I think if anything it has strengthened the bond between us. She has got pretty good at reading tiny body movements, and thinking for herself what she needs to do to adapt. Because of her being so tuned in to everything it also means I have to really concentrate on what I am doing...so I think it's made me more consistent in my handling. Really feels like we are working together as a team, and I prefer her to think for herself a bit (which she wouldnt do as much if I told her every movement to make)? I think it also makes her take more notice when I do say something...and has made verbal praise a stronger reward for her.
Let us know how Molo's week with minimal verbal commands goes? :D
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Ooo err! I've been told to take Ben back to agility after our 6 week intro course. He loves it and is like a kid in a playground! But he has his own agenda - this is all getting very technical and more like hard work ............................. I admit the hard work is mine.
Ben is a star 'on speed' and reacts so quickly that if I don't get in there with a command within a nano second I've lost him - he is then over the A frame, along the dog walk and through the tunnel before I've gathered myself after the jumps ::)
I've been told that I need 1-2-1 lessons. Is that the route you've gone down Rachel? Or do you do your training in a class?
TBH the class is much more affordable but the trainer said that the course we have completed just showed the dogs aptitude. We now need the 1-2-1's (however many for £10 per 30 mins) before we are able to join the intermediate class.
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I've been doing agility for 8+ years so a lot of what I have picked up I guess you could say has come with the experience. A few years ago I was with a club, and I think they are a great place to start, but to be honest once we had a bit of experience, I felt the training could be hit and miss, and far too repetitive for us. We need more of a challenge.
I do most of our training now at home in the garden, but attend training workshops occasionally (about £25 for a half day) Never had 1-2-1 lessons, but reckon my dogs would have had enough after 15 minutes of it. Billy likes it little and often, whereas Ted still needs as much experience as possible, so he is going to go to classes that a friend is running soon.
I guess how much work you put in depends on what you want to get out of it. Some people like to do it just for fun; some are very serious and more competitive. I think I’m a bit of both, perhaps more serious about it with Billy because he is a good dog (biased I know :lol:) Although don’t get me wrong, we still get eliminated a lot, and it’s always due to handler error!
Just to add - just because someone is labelled as a trainer, it does not mean they are a good one. So don’t be afraid to shop around until you find training that you are happy with.
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Sounds interesting Rachel, let us know how you get on. ;) I'm very aware of my verbal commands as I'm rather loud anyway and probably sound like a fish wife bellowing commands at Milo around the agility course. ph34r :005: Will speak to Milo's agility trainer tomorrow and see what she thinks. She's very up on using body language as well as commands and now we've been going for a while she has suggested we drop commands when it's obvious what we want the dog to do, eg. sitting and waiting while we walk past jumps and then call the dog to us, she says at this level it should be obvious to the dog that he needs to go over the jumps and this seems to be the case. However, Milo is soooooo fast that most of the time I won't be anywhere near the equipment that my body language would be sending him over/through and she says it's really important that Milo knows some pieces of equipment by name so that I can send him over/through them at a distance. She did also say though that within a few months we should be able to stand in one place at the end of two rows of jumps and point them over the jump we want them to do just with a hand signal. :o Don't know whether hand signals/body language alone would work with Milo given his speed though. Be interested to know what experienced agility-ers think....
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I think I'll go back for the 1-2-1's. The school is very good ............ and the only local one (11 miles away). I'm doing it for fun but Ben promises to be so good at it that I'm getting idea's above my station ::) I can just imagine him in a team of black and white collies (they seem to rule at this game) and coming out best :angel: ................................. This is from an owner in her mid 40's with the fitness to prove it and an unruly working cocker :lol: I can dream can't I :D
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This has been a real eye-opener for me - and revealed that lil'bit's non-verbal cues are FAR better than mine ph34r ph34r
Molo sometimes gets confused when I am "training" him non-verbally; whereas he does exactly what lil'bit wants straight off ::) It has been a brilliant exercise to carry out; I really, really have to tighten up on my hand signals and body language.......but I'm definitely looking forward to class on Monday after a weekend of practice ;)
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I am reading this with interest. What signals are you using as I would love to expand on our repetoir.
It involves a lot of pointing :005:
I point up to the sky (at a slight angle towards the jump, not straight up over my head) for "OVER" a hurdle. I point directly at the entrance contact points of the walk and A-frame and use a flat hand in front of him for the exit contact points ;)
I point with an arm straight and parallel to the ground for the tunnel entrance ;) I am working towards hands clasped behind my back for the weaves, but that is a few weeks away :005:
At my agility lesson on weds Emma had me using my shoulders as well as my arms to indicate which way to go on a crossover/changing sides from left to right or vice versa (basically not so much just pointing but turning my body so its leaning round to indicate which way to go)
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I'm very aware of my verbal commands as I'm rather loud anyway and probably sound like a fish wife bellowing commands at Milo around the agility course. ph34r :005:
:lol: :lol: you're not alone there, I still find it hard to keep my gob shut even though at times I know I should! :005:
Don't know whether hand signals/body language alone would work with Milo given his speed though. Be interested to know what experienced agility-ers think....
No harm in using your voice as well*, just to be aware of your non verbal signals is a huge advantage. You could find in time that you don't need to keep up with Milo to direct him, many handlers with turbo dogs do it from afar. It's interesting to watch other handlers and see what they do, some hardly move from the middle of the course.
:shades: I'm going on about body language but with those still introducing their dogs to the equipment it probably won't apply just yet. When your dog is confidently running on is when you're really going to reap the benefits. :D
* if you can limit your voice to when you really need to attract his attention it will be a more effective tool. (edited to add this!)
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Don't know whether hand signals/body language alone would work with Milo given his speed though. Be interested to know what experienced agility-ers think....
No harm in using your voice as well*, just to be aware of your non verbal signals is a huge advantage. You could find in time that you don't need to keep up with Milo to direct him, many handlers with turbo dogs do it from afar. It's interesting to watch other handlers and see what they do, some hardly move from the middle of the course.
:shades: I'm going on about body language but with those still introducing their dogs to the equipment it probably won't apply just yet. When your dog is confidently running on is when you're really going to reap the benefits. :D
* if you can limit your voice to when you really need to attract his attention it will be a more effective tool. (edited to add this!)
There's no way I'll be able to keep up with Milo when he's reliably running full courses. At the moment I get away with it 'cos the series of obstacles we do in a course are in a fairly structured order, and fortunately I can leave him in a wait and walk as far as the straight part of course takes me and call him from there, the problem starts when I've fallen behind and am trying to instruct him when he's way ahead. I'm sure it will come in time and as he gets more confident.
Discovered this morning that Milo doesn't actually pay much attention to my hand signals and does what he thinks he should be doing, which is normally the obvious route to take. :o This morning we had jump, then rigid tunnel (in a "u" shape) and then another jump. The aim was to put the dog over the 1st jump, through the tunnel and then once they were in the tunnel, leg it to between the two jumps with our backs to the tunnel and then with the appropriate hand indicate left or right, depending on what jump we were aiming to do. Milo did the jump, tunnel and left jump fine, 'cos the left jump was the one directly in front of the exit of the tunnel. But, when we had to do the right hand jump, he repeatedly jumped the left one because it was the most obvious to him and he paid no attention to what my hands were doing at all. ::) So, we're now going for using non verbal commands as little as possible for the next few weeks, to see if he pays more attention to my hands.