CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Krisdt on May 22, 2007, 02:43:22 PM
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I was chatting to the trainer I went to yesterday and as he is a working breeder (he is a gamekeeper and dog breeder and trainer) we got to talking baout breeding etc (I think he was hinting at Loki being a stud dog in the future, which I am not too keen on) I know Lokis parents werent hip scored etc (they were an accidental litter from 2 very well bred dogs) I was wondering about getting Loki tested (purely out of curiosity)
So whats involved and how much are these tests? (obviously the cost will vary but a rough idea)
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Optigen is a blood test, just a simple blood sample, hip scoring requires the dog to be fully anesthitised (sp?) and stretched out for x-rays. Maybe someone else can tell you the cost there
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IMO be very careful of who you're dealing with. I could tell you some hairy stories of some gamekeepers & their dogs. Do not breed with any dog that has had non tested parents. Whats the man thinking of >:D Put the idea out of you're mind and tell him to behave himself (ejit) >:D
Enjoy you're dog 1st & foremost and plough you're energies and thought into training and nothing else. ;)
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Hip scoring costs vary with individual vets. You have to pay the BVA fee for scoring the x-rays and your vet's fees for anaesthesia & taking the x-rays. We have just paid £75 to have one our dogs scored (£32 of this was the BVA fee). You can find more info about hip scoring on the BVA website at www.bva.co.uk. Info and costs for Optigen testing can be found at www.optigen.com. You can also send samples to the French company Antagene (who have the European licence for the FN test). They extract the DNA and forward to Optigen for testing for prcd_PRA (www.antagene.com).
I agree with Cazzie though - I would enjoy Loki as a pet and forget about stud work as this isn't something to be considered until you have an awful lot of experience and knowledge of the breed.
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I can't add any input about what is involved with the tests etc but if anybody does consider putting their dog to stud speak to a breeder who has done this, they may very well put you off doing so! :005: I know of a very reputable breeder who has to really get down and dirty with her stud dog on occassions! :o Apparently he is quite well endowed and makes the bitches squeel and the breeder has to really help out as he gets scared by the squeels! Poor lad!
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IMO be very careful of who you're dealing with. I could tell you some hairy stories of some gamekeepers & their dogs. Do not breed with any dog that has had non tested parents. Whats the man thinking of >:D Put the idea out of you're mind and tell him to behave himself (ejit) >:D
Enjoy you're dog 1st & foremost and plough you're energies and thought into training and nothing else. ;)
Dont worry I was just curious about the whole thing I am not thinking about it. I often have discussions about things then wonder on the stupid details.
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hip scoring can be done by sedation which is how I have mine done, I don't like GA's unless absolutely necessary.
Ayla will be having her hips scored at 18 months same as bonnie had hers so not long to go now. Its an easy process and although it stil comes with some risks its my personal preference. There is a fantastic lady in Southampton that does a marvelous job with hips who I can highly recommend. If she doesn't like the plates that she's taken then she does them again until she thinks they are right, did mine first time round - marvelous! You could even see that bonnie was desperate for a poo :luv: :luv:
Ayla has been eye tested and I'm waiting for the results... very nerve wracking. She came from parents who had a clear normal eye test but were not hip scored... to be honest I struggled finding a working breeder of the lines I wanted that bothered to do any test >:( Unlikely she'll ever be bred from but I lhave an interest in DNA and health so the more test available the better. She has already been DNA profiled in case of theft and its registered with the kennel club.
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hip scoring can be done by sedation which is how I have mine done, I don't like GA's unless absolutely necessary.
I think Aspen only got sedated when he was done last year at our new vets. Cost me approx £150 including the BVA fee. Although he won't be getting bred from, those lines are the ones that I would like to base my own line on which is why I'm carrying out all the health tests. Both he and Disney (half brothers, same dad) got single digit hip scores which was very pleasing.
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Tasha.......any chance of letting me know the Southampton persons details re hip scoring?? thanks in advance! ;)
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Hip scoring costs vary with individual vets. You have to pay the BVA fee for scoring the x-rays and your vet's fees for anaesthesia & taking the x-rays. We have just paid £75 to have one our dogs scored (£32 of this was the BVA fee).
I just had my Golden retrievers done at a cost of.........are you ready.........£208 ouch
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You are not the only one who thought that it would have been nice to have read this thread before getting their dogs scored. The last time I paid 240 £. Admittingly the sedation is more expensive for a Dalmatian and a Labrador but surely not that much more? I think I will travel in the future!
Stephanie
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I'm glad someone brought this up as I am just sorting out taking my youngsters for hip scoring next week and so many people keep telling me 'we don't DO hip scoring in working cockers'. This is something I had already suspected since when searching for mine I couldn't find any breeders that were hip scoring and most weren't eye testing either! I was starting to wonder whether I was wasting my time and money getting them done!!
My dogs are also hip scored under sedation while I wait (have all my BC's done this way) and the vet is excellent at going through the plates with you and predicting the likely score before they are sent off. I pay about £100 all in.
I will be having them eye tested obviously and OptiGen tested too (crikey that's expensive) but I haven't been able to get much joy fron the antagene website re. the FN testing :huh:
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.... but I haven't been able to get much joy fron the antagene website re. the FN testing :huh:
No it's the best laid out website around is it? You need to click on the Familial Nephropathy Link then click on "order" which is in very small print in the green bar across the top. That brings up the page with the forms you need to download & also the email address to request sampling kits to be sent to you.
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To be honest I am very keen on testing I believe that if something like that can be done and its accurate then no one can argue with it, no one can say oh its just this one pup because its genetic testing in majority. I absolutely hate all the cloak and dagger nonsense that goes on because people want to protect either their investment in a dog or their reputation.
Working breeders are slowly getting round to having their dogs tested there are some good breeders who see it as a benefit to both their future breed program and their current stock, sadly most still appear to have their heads in the sand giving out the impression that there is nothing wrong with working lines, well thats a crock of horse poo!! If you have a working dog if its not up to scratch has a health problem etc then it'll either be dumped, shot or rehomed worst case senerion used as breeding stock to churn out a replacement so they don't see the problems.. therefore they don't exist ::) ::) ::) >:(
Even if you aren't going to breed its worth doing the tests because someone else out there can benefit from the data and you might just find out something that will prepare you and your dog for its future if there is a problem - what is it they say prevention is better than cure, catching things early can only be a bonus.
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Thanks for the help...will go give the antagene website another bash!! :D
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I've been having trouble with Antagene also - I want to send blood samples but they said they would prefer cheek swabs and sent me the cheek swabbing kits but as I'm going to be testing pups I would prefer to send blood because of the cross -contamination risks with puppies. ::)
I have used the lady down in Southampton a couple of times for hip scoring and she is very good, you can stay with your dog throughout the whole process although you have to wear a very fetching tiger print lead vest :005:
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I'm glad someone brought this up as I am just sorting out taking my youngsters for hip scoring next week and so many people keep telling me 'we don't DO hip scoring in working cockers'. This is something I had already suspected since when searching for mine I couldn't find any breeders that were hip scoring and most weren't eye testing either! I was starting to wonder whether I was wasting my time and money getting them done!!
I do mine and Ive just had 3 done last week at a cost of £153 EACH. My vet used to be very reasonable but I was really taken aback. Add that to the Optigen DNAs that I had done 7 months or so back, it has been a very expensive year....but you are correct when you say there are hardly any done and there is still opposition to those that do.
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:luv:
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Why dont some working cocker breeders test ? isent there Hip D or Pra in working cockers ?
HD is a bit of a weird one for both types as there has only been just over 500 cockers ever tested since the scheme has been running (about 20 years in its current format, before that it was the GSD scheme??) and there is about 14000-15000 cockers reg every year so 500 cockers in say 14000 x 20yrs isnt really a good representation to base anything on. There has been quite a range of scores but nothing you can pin down and say yes or no for sure for BOTH types. However, I take the view that I personally want to know what I am breeding from so I do. Think with having had other breeds where hip scoring is a must, it feels 'wrong' for me not to do so. Where I will draw the line at an unacceptable score for me I dont know, as I dont want to throw the baby out with the bath water especially with a tight gene pool. Maybe this is why there is resistance to it as what you dont know you dont have to worry about...My experience in other breeds has been a good dog with a high hip scpre (in 50's) was a popular Show Champion stud dog in a numerically small breed prone to HD (WSS). He didnt pass this on though and the breed is now 4 gens down from thsi dog and the average score is still falling which is good. I find it interesting to watch other breeds and their trends.
PRA doesnt appear to be very prevalent, however it has been known (but not recently) , but until Optigen (as we all know), all cocker breeders of both types only had the pass or fail eye certificate to go on which doesnt throw up the carriers. There are certainly carriers. But, still so many breeders out there that dont know of this DNA test.
I see the lab people have managed to get the Optigen test under the KC umbrella. If the same happens with cockers, I think the KC, once it is part of their scheme, should maybe send out a one page leaflet with all those that reg pups with them, nothing too complicated, just drawing attention to the available tests. This way breeders without internet access cant say they didnt know about them and gives them the opportunity to decide if they want to make use of them, no one can force anyone unless the KC changes it reg policies. ok, maybe too late for the litter they have just reg, but it is a step in the right direction for the future.
Edited to add: just as an aside, I personally have never ever heard of FN in working cockers
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Hi Kirsten,
there are quite a few statistics available regarding HD from the continental European countries where hip scoring is a must before breeding. It certainly runs in lines and is prooven to be hereditary but it is not a simple recessive or dominant gene. Often results can be masked for many Generations and then suddenly crop up again particularly if inexperienced breeders are unaware of those 4 - 5 Generations behind their dog and unknowingly double up on dogs that have had bad hips.
Greetings,
Stephanie
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Just to throw something in there to support that it can be irelevant about some dogs parentage for hips, My Golden retriever has just had her hips done, the first and second generation behind her they are no higher than a combined score of 7 most are combined score of 3 or 4 but my girls hips have come back as 11 but i know 4 gens behind her there is one who has quite a high score.
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hips are a little difficult anyway because they are constantly changing and they aren't sure if its just genetics that cause the problem its also environmental, how much exercise they have had as pups, food type, etc its wear and tear and the tests are only done once so there is no guarantee that you are getting a definite no to HD. You can even get some dogs with a high score that have had a green break. Its a snap shot view.
The europeans have the right idea though they hip score all the dogs in the breeding program and you have to adher to an A or B score to be able to breed although I have from some countries seen dogs bred that have a C or a D score. Being able to see all the dogs history though through its whole family is a very useful piece of information.
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quite agree - I know its a bit of hereditary and envir and there is no black and white , but there are no great stats for cockers in this country of scored v KC reg if you know what I mean, 500 is a drop in the ocean to the amount of reg cockers in the time span of 20 years...
I threw the comment in about the Welshie just as an interesting thing (I wasnt expressing a personal view on whether it was right or wrong to use this dog, my personal thoughts on this have changed over the years and are irrelevant anyway) , esp as some in the ring are 4 gens away from him and there is a more complete picture in that breed as there is in other breeds like GSD, labs and esp clumbers. Will be v interesting in another 10 years to see what happens.
Think you have to take a v rounded view of things, I know in labs there is the concern that there was so much focus on hips, that temperament was affected. While I would love to see more cockers hip scored, I would hate that (and eye status) to be the only deciding factor in breeding.
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me too... I think you have to start off with the basics, ie is it healthy?? Will it pass anything on to its offspring or other future generations and then go for the temperment, conformation, working ability etc and if all that comes up trumps then breed.
If more people did we'd have less bred each year and fewer dogs in rescue as a result of over breeding, we'd also have healthier stock.
I know in some breeds in some countries they have to adher to very strict rules before joining the breed program, weimaraners in germany for an example have to have a full set of teeth ph34r in this country no one would bother counting them up they just check to see that they are clean and healthy looking. The breed program is strict you have to do conformation and hunting tests as well as health tests and if anything is wrong its a no no to being in the breed program.
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Hi Tasha,
it is not just Weimaraners but almost all dog breeds in Germany that have to pass those stringent tests. If it is not a working breed then they have to pass a temperament test instead of the working exam. It is not a fool proof system but it certainly stops puppy farmers from even trying to KC register their stock, making it easy for potential owners to spot the difference.
I still maintain my view that HD is strongly hereditary, certainly can be influenced by the environment but is more prominent in some breeds than in others.
In a post above somebody mentioned on higher hip scored dog on the pedigree - this is enough as HD can "jump" many Generations and most hereditary patterns (good or bad) take seven Generations to establish, one or two just will not do.
Having said all that - we do breed dogs and not hips only so I totally understand where you are coming from but still wish that some would be more selective in their breeding programs.
Greetings,
Stephanie
Greetings,
Stephanie
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If anyone is interested in the Optigen testing there is a 20/20 clinic being held in September in Surrey. As its a clinic and the tests are being done in a bulk lot there is a discount available of 20% with an added 5% for making the payment online. I'm participating in this rather than going through the french company which to be honest I have found a little too difficult to book on their site.
The details are:
September 11, 2007 - Southern Border Collie Club (UK) Clinic
Blood draw for OptiGen tests and microchipping commencing at 1:45 pm. The clinic will be run by Val Tiller in association with Southern Border Collie Club and the vet attending is Michael Lomax, M.R.C.V.S. For full details and to book places for your dogs, please contact Val Tiller
Breed: All Breeds
Location: "Foxbarton", 15 Beaconsfield Road, Langley Vale, Epsom, Surrey, England KT18 6HA
Contact: Val Tiller
Email: val.tiller@talk21.com
Phone: (01372) 273597
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The Europeans have the right idea though they hip score all the dogs in the breeding program and you have to adher to an A or B score to be able to breed although I have from some countries seen dogs bred that have a C or a D score. Being able to see all the dogs history though through its whole family is a very useful piece of information.
Tasha, the rules vary in different European countries. In some Scandinavian countries the only rule is that the dog must be hip scored, no matter what the outcome of the test is in Germany you are allowed to breed from A and B hips but you will also get permission to breed from C scored dogs IF you are breeding the C scored hip to an A scored hip. Rules can vary which is confusing but the most confusing fact is that many of the continental countries have got different hip scoring systems so an A is not always an A. To add to the confusion - The UK has one of the toughest hip scoring systems in the world, I believe only shared with Australia.
Greetings,
Stephanie
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Hi all,ive found this thread very interesting.Does any one know the total number for the hip score that is deemed acceptable?
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According to the BVA, the mean score for Cockers is 14 but that's based on data from January 06 so is not exactly up to date.
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do you mean the average score for the breed or a good score??? I'd want a dog to have the international A' grade if possible Bonnie's hips are UK 4:4 which is good for her breed as a weimaraner that has a score of 13 but I haven't looked into the cockers I suppose because of the two variations it would be interesting to have a score for both the working and show type but unlikely unless you did your own stuff and could see what was what - having said that all the data is available so it could be done.
I just had some great news back from Optigen with regard to Ayla's eye test for PRA - she's CLEAR!!!! Yippee :shades: :shades: She had a very dodgy eyesight test last year and I was terribly worried but it seems that despite having a bit of rubbish floating around she's got good eyes :D :D I'm going to let her breeders know as both have good working lines.
They are doing an Optigen 20/20 clinic again soon so keep an eye out on their website for details, they don't do the FN test you do have to go to Antegene for that and to be honest I am having it done but am not happy that we don't benefit from the discounts the 20/20 clinics offer or from only having one test session done, is very traumatic for the dogs so less fuss the better as far as I am concerned. :D
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14 is the average score for cockers so the lower the score below this level the better.
One thing that is not mentioned on the Anatagene site is that the FN cheek swab test has to be authenticated by a vet and that the dog cannot have anything to eat or drink for 1/2 an hour before the test. So you would have to book an appointment with your vet for them to carry out the test and sign the forms
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I had the blood for the 20/20 clinic (Optigen) taken by my Vet at the same time that I had him take the cheek swap and fill in the paperwork for Antagene. That way it was only one trip and less expensive in consultation fees. The Euro is quite strong at the moment so the FN test worked out almost as expensive (7 £ difference) as the Optigen test. Lucy is clear for both - Hurray :shades:
Stephanie
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That's great news Stephanie,
Em
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Yes, I think so...... Thank you Em. I got all exited and had to remind myself that there are still a few more hurdles to take.... First of all she has to grow up and remain healthy and of the same temperament that she is displaying now, then of course, there is the HD test, the PRA/Glaucoma test and maybe the odd show where we hopefully do not embarrass us totally. Whatever happens next; right now I am over the moon with the results and my little fluff ball of a puppy that keeps us all amused.
Greetings,
Stephanie
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so did you attend a 20/20 clinic??? or did you have bloods taken independantly?? The clinics are basically a mass testing clinic where we all benefit from a multi dog discount. Pity that they gave the FN test to Antegene for Europe otherwise it too would have been alot cheaper...
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The person who organised the 20/20 clinic was so kind to send me the neccessary tubes for the blood sample. I took those and paperwork to MY vet and posted the sample to the 20/20 clinic. This way I could benefit from the discount without having to travel.
Greetings,
Stephanie
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Well, the eye tests on my two were fine, hips checked ok too, still waiting for results back from the BVA but my vet (usually v reliable) has suggested worse case scenario 3:3 for Teal and 5:5 for Drake so would be very happy with those :D
I have ordered swab kits from Antagene and also asked them and they confirmed that they are happy to extract DNA from the swabs I am sending for FN testing to send on to OptiGen for PRA testing so no need for bloods as well! All I have to do is order the tests online from OptiGen and put a copy of the test request in with the samples to Antagene. Two birds and one stone so to speak ;)
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I have had Bella & Tess optigan tested did not have any 20/20 clinics near me so arranged it myself, I think I've got shares in the vets now :005: also did not realise how expensive sending blood samples to America was!
Results were :-Bella is normal/clear & Tess is a carrier
Bella was hip scored two years ago and has a good score,I have also had them tested for FN at Antagene but am still awaiting the results (Does anyone know how long this takes ? They told me they received the samples on 17th September)
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I'm confused now, is FN testing only availiable from Antagene now? When we had Georgie FN tested almost a year ago it was through Optigen :huh:.
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When I asked Optigan about FN testing they said I could only do it through Antagene
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When I asked Optigan about FN testing they said I could only do it through Antagene
Oh right, I've only really just noticed as were getting Elsie tested soon.
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Optigen cannot offer the FN test to European Cockers unless they have been previously Optigen tested for prcd-PRA before December last year (under the terms of their licence). Think there's more info HERE (http://www.optigen.com/opt9_ecsfn1215ann.html)
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Optigen told me that the people who licence the FN testing sold the rights to Antegene it wasn't actually Optigen themselves so they have no control over the testing if you attend a 20/20 clinic. Pity really because they are very swift, the site is easy to use and i could have benefitted from a rather large reduction which combined with the good currency rates at the moment made the cost very low.
I'm doing the FN tests with Ayla as well once I figure out how to do the request off the antegene website.
I sent a copy of my clear PRA Optigen test results to the breeders not just of my dog but also those who bred the sire and dam and was a little surprised by one of the emails I received back, but disappointed too seems working dogs are too good to be tested they don't get eyesight problems >:(
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I'm doing the FN tests with Ayla as well once I figure out how to do the request off the antegene website.
When I did these tests with Antagene , once I had it on the English translation,I went to the order test page and followed the instructions for people with no sampling kits,they then sent me within a week ,the sampling kits plus all the paperwork needed,I then made an appointment with my vet for the tests & paperwork to be done
Then sent them off to Antagene.Hope this is of some help ;)
Luckily I received my results back from Antagene this Wednesday for the girls -they are both Normal/clear! :blink: