CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: *sammy* on June 21, 2007, 01:30:23 PM
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on my puppy sammys kc certificate he is tri colour. howver he looks blue roan and tan to me. what do you think, i have reas somewhere that they are the same and in others says they are different, what do you think?(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa255/sam15_album/scan.jpg)
sorry don't know how to make the picture smaller!!
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He looks to be a light blue roan and tan to me. Some people do call this colour "tricolour" but traditionally it means clear black, white & tan or liver, white and tan.
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do you think his certificate is wrong then? i don't think i had him from a very reputable breeder after reading the advice here, wish i'd found you first!
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:lol2:.
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i know this isn't the greatest photo but it shows more of his back!
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa255/sam15_album/scan0001.jpg)
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He is just like my Sam when he was a puppy. I would say blue roan and tan (but I don't know much).
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half the dogs in a working litter i know were changed from Liver and White to Liver roan once their coat developed so sometimes early on they can be confused (as Luvly has said)
I would say you have a beautiful little Light Blue roan and tan on your hands ;) :luv:
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All I know is he is gooooooorgeous :luv: and I want him NOOOOOOWWWW :005:
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thanks, he is gorgeous!!!!! :luv: just picked my son up from school sammy gets so excited it's the most loveable site as they both run to greet each other!!!
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I also have a blue roan and tan dog and have been very confused as to wether he is a tricolour, in Judy de Casembroots book , The Merry Cocker, which I quote, she gives the difference between the colours and states, blue roan and tan, black white and tan and tan-liver, or chocolate,roan and tan as being classed as tri-colours. Have also phoned the kennel club and they confirmed a blue roan and tan is a tri-colour, as they have three colours on them.
Rupert's Mum
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You have your answer, that was nice of Robert's mum! I was originally gonna say before I read that, that whatever he is I think he is absolutely GORGEOUS :luv:
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thank you ruperts mum and everyone who lookded at my beaut!!
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Have also phoned the kennel club and they confirmed a blue roan and tan is a tri-colour, as they have three colours on them.
I wouldn't take what the KC tell you as gospel as they will register any colour at all - from strawberry roan to champagne and any number of other ridiculous colours despite being told these are not correct colour descriptions for a Cocker ;) As you can see there are differences of opinion out there - many other older breeders would not call a blue roan and tan a tricolour as there are not three clearly distinct colours. Also registering any particolour with tan markings as simply "tricolour" doesn't tell you enough about what colour they actually are - not that important to most people but quite important if you're researching pedigrees etc.
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I agree Jane, I was always under the impression a true Tri-Colour was 3 distinctly different colours, ie; Black, White & Tan, Liver, White and Tan...not roan. Mind you it wouldn't surprise me that a puppy could be registered as a Tri because it's a highly sought after colour and therefore maybe more appealing to the potential owners. I've noticed some weird and wonderful colours in the BRS too :-\
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Its a crazy world, I saw somewhere an advert on Silver Labradors :-\
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Its a crazy world, I saw somewhere an advert on Silver Labradors :-\
I've seen these too, apparently they're popular in America. My friend who shows weimaraners sent me this link...
http://www.silverlabs.com/index.htm
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Its a crazy world, I saw somewhere an advert on Silver Labradors :-\
I've seen these too, apparently they're popular in America. My friend who shows weimaraners sent me this link...
http://www.silverlabs.com/index.htm
:'( :'( Whats the world coming to :'( :'(
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With regard to my previous reply about blue roan and tan being a tri-colour, apart from the classification in Judy de Casenbroots book, the same classification of tri-colour is also in H.S.Lloyd's book, The Popular Cocker Spaniel page145 (4th edition), and in The Cocker Spaniel by V.A H Mathews (1950) page 175 she classes a blue roan and tan as a roan tri-colour. So if they aren't now classed as a tri-colour, what is their colour classification?
A confused Rupert's mum.
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With regard to my previous reply about blue roan and tan being a tri-colour, apart from the classification in Judy de Casenbroots book, the same classification of tri-colour is also in H.S.Lloyd's book, The Popular Cocker Spaniel page145 (4th edition), and in The Cocker Spaniel by V.A H Mathews (1950) page 175 she classes a blue roan and tan as a roan tri-colour. So if they aren't now classed as a tri-colour, what is their colour classification?
Yes I have those very old books too but as I've already mentioned, using "tricolour" for any particolour Cocker with tan markings is too vague if you really want to know what colour that dog is. A blue roan and tan is just that, a blue roan and tan ;) You know where you are when a dog is described as that instead of having to wonder whether that dog is one of several possible permutations. There is no official "classification" for Cocker colours - the KC have refused to limit registrations to a defined list and will register any colour description at all that a breeder chooses to use.
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;)
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Under the bottom line this is surely a question that needs to be answered in a scientific way. Genetically Roan is a totally different colour than Tri - meaning three colours including white. Genetically these colours are also clearly separated by other indicators than the colour of the coat - such as the solid coloured paw pads in the roan the the "and pink" coloured paw pads in a liver or black tri. Like Jane stated there are significant differences if you are doing pedigree research and one colour is dominant and the other recessive.
Whilst I was on the "puppy hunt" I came across one breeder who offered me an apricot and white male puppy............I had a job not to lecture him on his own breeds colours.
I am also a little bit confused about the definitions between lemon and orange or even red............
In Dalmatians and (don't laugh) guinea pigs an orange coloured dog/pig has a brown nose, eye rims, paw pads etc and lemon has the same in black. Where are the red once coming from? How do you differentiate between red and lemon? Just because of the difference in shades of colour? Or are there other differences in the Cocker Spaniel? Are they inherited in a different way? Where is the difference between golden and red? Is there genetically a difference?
Stephanie
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Whilst I was on the "puppy hunt" I came across one breeder who offered me an apricot and white male puppy............I had a job not to lecture him on his own breeds colours.
This is quite common with commercial breeders - I can think of several who register puppies as "apricot" and other fruity shades :005: It's either due to ignorance of what the colours should be called or a deliberate sales tactic to make their puppies sound more appealing to the general public.
How do you differentiate between red and lemon? Just because of the difference in shades of colour? Or are there other differences in the Cocker Spaniel? Are they inherited in a different way? Where is the difference between golden and red? Is there genetically a difference?
The difference between gold and red is purely the shade of the coat. These colours are genetically the same but the shade is thought to be affected by other modifying genes which act on the main recessive colour gene ("ee" for either a red or a gold). Reds and golds can have black pigmentation (nose, footpads etc) or liver pigmentation (if the dog is "bb" ie 2 copies of the liver gene are present). A very pale gold with liver pigmentation would usually be called lemon.
If you need to ask any more questions about colour genes in Cockers, you might be better off starting a new thread so this one doesn't go too off topic. Thanks :blink:
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Hello Jane,
thank you for that. No worries, I will not pester you with more colour genetics...... only one more to clarify matters further so I can sort the different colour names to the correct genetically codes in my head. If you mate a lemon (pale orange with brown nose and paw pads etc.) to a liver coloured dog will the resulting puppies be liver or black? I know that there are different variations possible BUT I am keeping it simple not to confuse matters.
Greetings,
Stephanie
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If you mate a lemon (pale orange with brown nose and paw pads etc.) to a liver coloured dog will the resulting puppies be liver or black? I know that there are different variations possible BUT I am keeping it simple not to confuse matters.
The answer depends on the genetic makeup of the dog. The lemon with liver nose etc is eebb but the liver dog could be EEbb or Eebb. If he's EE, then all the pups will be liver. If he's Ee, then lemon pups with liver pigmentation are possible as well as liver pups. Think that's right - it's a bit late in the day for me :005:
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Hi Jane,
I guess it was late but you answered my query anyway:) Thank you yet again!!!
Stephanie
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Its a crazy world, I saw somewhere an advert on Silver Labradors :-\
A silver lab is just a 'diluted' black lab BBdd, the dilution gene is found in quite a large number of breeds and once you've got it is relatively easy to breed on as it's a simple recessive. In BC's we call it 'blue' and it has become a relatively common in both working and show lines with another blue/white made up this weekend at SWKA.
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on my puppy sammys kc certificate he is tri colour. howver he looks blue roan and tan to me. what do you think, i have reas somewhere that they are the same and in others says they are different, what do you think?(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa255/sam15_album/scan.jpg)
I also have a blue roan and tan but she was registered by her breeder as black, white and tan which I do not believe is technically correct because it gives no indication of the fact she IS roan. As others have said this is important when researching pedigrees in the future. I try to avoid the use of the word 'tricolour' in cockers personally because cockers are not all bi-coloured so the term 'tan-point' is really more accurate and can then refer to a particolour or solid. One of my BC's was registered as a tricolour merle which I asked them to change as it gave no indication of his actual colour (he is chocolate merle and tan), when registering tricolour pups myself I always refer to their colour first e.g. black tri, blue tri, choc tri etc but my cockers are black and tan, blue roan and tan etc...
Sorry, waffled a bit there, just for a change ;)
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Piper my last dog, was blue roan and tan but on his papers stated tri colour - mum was a blue roan, dad black and tan. Your puppy picture remind me of him, especially around the brown eyebrows
You have a very beautiful pup