CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Alpha on July 10, 2007, 01:48:03 PM
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I have posted this here as I think that workers are very different to train than show, so here goes.
So far Lilly has been a delight to train but a clever little minx at times, she will drop to a sit or down immediately if there is a treat on offer but will have to consider it for a while if not..her recall is pretty good two toots on the whistle and she comes flying back and she will always sit and wait to be told to go on when let off. So all in all pretty good.
The problem I am starting to encounter is she has started to pull, its not to forceful as she is only 5 months old. BUT it is really irritating. Most of the walks we do involve a 10 minute walk to get to and she constantly wants to be up front. I use a slip lead with her but even the loose lead philosophy doesn't seem to work.
I have been considering a halti until she learns to walk to heel.
I have even tried using a treat in my hand but she just wants to jump up then,
any ideas folks would be greatly appreciated. BTW her mum who does agility and flyball is a puller as well, I don't know if that is anything to do with it.
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I don't think there's really much of a difference in training a working cocker not to pull and any other dog... all the usual methods are the same - dogs pull because they think they know where they're going so change directions often to keep them on their toes, turn and walk in the opposite direction when she pulls and incorporate lots of 90 degree turns as well so she can't second guess you. Another method which works for some is to stop when the dog starts to pull and wait until they sit beside you before setting off again. You won't get anywhere fast to start with but consistency is the key and it will sink in eventually. Using a halti or not is up to you,of course it will provide instant results and is easier but it doesn't actually teach them not to pull and personally I wouldn't consider it with such a young dog until I'd given at least one of the methods above a very good try first (like for a good few weeks).
If you do check her back using the lead as is recommended by some working dog trainers the best way to do it is to almost get down on one knee so you're near her level and check her back once, sharply so you are pulling directly back, rather than 'up and back' as it is if you check them whilst standing at your normal height.
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Will definitely give these a go, as i do think the halti would of been cheating! I feel bit thick now as whenever i think Lilly might be distracted and not come back I give two toots on the whistle and walk the other way. It has been so far 100% so why I didn't think about it for heelwork is beyond me.
Cheers honey, its no wonder Alfs is doing so well so young!
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Hiya,
What I did when Bella was young was stop suddenly as soon as she goes ahead of me, at the same time I would utter 'ah! ah!' which is the sound I use when Bella is not doing something I like. She would then take a few paces backwards and sit just behind my left foot, I wouldn't budge until she'd done this. Then I'd start off again and repeat the process if she walked ahead of me. She now walks to heel on lead or off and completely relaxes into it, sometimes I forget she's there and suddenly panic because I think I've lost her or that she's slipped the lead simply because the lead feels so slack! ::)
Definitely do what Nicola saya as well, a lot of direction changes really does make the dog focus on you rather than what it wants to do and the dog forgets about pulling and starts trying to figure out where you're going! ;)
Good luck with her :D
Best wishes
Mary
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My trainer uses the stop philosophy too. When Kali pulls I stop. As soon as the lead goes loose I move on, clicking and treating whilst walking. I got told that eventually she will learn that a loose lead means we will move and she will get a treat ;)
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Thank you all we have just come back from our second walk and Lilly is actually responding much better, it was nearly a pleasure to walk her on the lead.
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I loved reading your replies to eachother as have had similar experiences with mine. We do the walking backwards and stopping and changing direction but it all falls apart when I have the pushchair as I cannot change direction so easily !!? Any tips ?
It's all good fun but I think walking the two girls together also adds to the enthusiasm so I feel I am on a loosing battle.
Still I will persevere and hopefully one day master it!!
Do feel a bit of a twit and am sure poeple think I have gone potty when they drive past and I am walking backwards or changing direction all the time....! :005: :005:
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i have just had 2 of the best walks ever with Lils, however i did do the most severe of the lot and did the kneeling down and pulling her back to me. I also used the other techniques of turning 90 degrees and just stopping once it was just me and Lilly. However, I needed to get some changes rather quickly as twice a day I take Lils with me to take Luke to nursery and he insists on going on his bike (he is only 4) so its a case of needing eyes up your ****.
I felt terrible for the past 2 days, But it has worked.
So HUGE thanks to everyone
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Hi Amanda,
I would just stop and get the girls to get back beside or behind you and then start again, and then stop if they pull, repeating this process untill they understand that they won't get anywhere until they stop pulling. I wouldn't take the dogs with you yet if you have to get somewhere quickly with the buggy as you'll simply be reinfocing their pulling by being inconsistent with the stopping and starting, because I'm sure in the end you'll give into the pulling in order to actually get to the place you need to be.
Set aside a walk time that's just for you and each dog individually. At the beginning you may get no further than the end of the road, but you must be consistent about discouraging pulling. Once both dogs are okay on their own and have stopped pulling then you could try walking them together, however if they pull then you need to go back to singular walks and reinforce the non pulling training. Finally once the dogs are walking nicely together, then introduce the buggy.
This process will probably take a while and may well progress in fits and starts, especially if both your dogs are young and excitable. But it is very important that they get some focused one on one training time with you on the pulling problem, as this is the only way they'll cotton onto what you expect of them.
I've found that treats aren't necessary as the progression of the walk provides enough incentive for the dog to stop pulling and start walking properly :blink:
Good luck amanda, I'm sure you'll crack it in no time :D
Best wishes
Mary
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well done Alpha! :D
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i have just had 2 of the best walks ever with Lils, however i did do the most severe of the lot and did the kneeling down and pulling her back to me.
I don't think that is sever at all it is what I've been shown by a professional working dog trainer ;)
As long as you kneel down or go low and pull you are not hurting them
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Oh Cazza i love you i felt like a complete heel.... however I have found that she dos respond better when I am on "her level"
Cheers honey
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If you look back i'm sure I'm only agreeing with Nicola's posts :005: but as we have the same trainer then that's not surprising (sp) is it :005:
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i have just had 2 of the best walks ever with Lils, however i did do the most severe of the lot and did the kneeling down and pulling her back to me.
I don't think that is sever at all it is what I've been shown by a professional working dog trainer ;)
As long as you kneel down or go low and pull you are not hurting them
How can it not be uncomfortable or painful to pull on an animals neck? :huh:
No matter what the "angle" you use, or what level you stand at, if you use force against living flesh, then it will compress, leading to pressure on nerve endings, which sends pain signals to the brain :'( It also leads to damage to the delicate blood vessels under the skin and consequently, bruising :-\
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if you have the lead not tight then it's pulling on the chest and not on the neck
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Now I feel really mean again...
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Now I feel really mean again...
Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.
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Agree totally with Nicola :D
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i have just had 2 of the best walks ever with Lils, however i did do the most severe of the lot and did the kneeling down and pulling her back to me.
I don't think that is sever at all it is what I've been shown by a professional working dog trainer ;)
As long as you kneel down or go low and pull you are not hurting them
How can it not be uncomfortable or painful to pull on an animals neck? :huh:
No matter what the "angle" you use, or what level you stand at, if you use force against living flesh, then it will compress, leading to pressure on nerve endings, which sends pain signals to the brain :'( It also leads to damage to the delicate blood vessels under the skin and consequently, bruising :-\
I have to say I've only had to do this to Lilly twice, but the advice i have had from others who have working cocker's has been invaluable she has gone from "pulling like a steamtrain" to acknowledging "no" very quickly.
IYO what other way could I have done this, as i have tried treats, stopping and turning around and she still bounds off in front and insist on being in front of me and Luke, which is a bit of a liability with a 4 year old on a bike, one of them would get hurt. She doesn't pull in a dominant way just a "hurry up mum and let get me off my lead" . Its more enthusiasm than naughtiness.
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i have just had 2 of the best walks ever with Lils, however i did do the most severe of the lot and did the kneeling down and pulling her back to me.
I don't think that is sever at all it is what I've been shown by a professional working dog trainer ;)
As long as you kneel down or go low and pull you are not hurting them
Sorry but I could not read this with out having to have a rant. ;)
HOW DO THEY KNOW they are not hurting the dog. :huh:
This makes me really angry >:D
I would much prefer to persevere with reward based methods and use a harness in the meantime rather than risk hurting my dog or my relationship with it.
If you use punishment it should be so severe as so the dog will NEVER repeat the behaviour.
How many gun dog trainers hand on heart can say they use only one jerk on the lead and their dog never pulls again.
I doubt very few if any!
>:D >:D >:D >:D >:D
Mark
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Now I feel really mean again...
Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.
I Don't agree Nicola, surely a harness is a more ethical solution in the best interests of the dog rather than any yanking back of the dogs neck no matter how brief.
Mark
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Now I feel really mean again...
Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.
I Don't agree Nicola, surely a harness is a more ethical solution in the best interests of the dog rather than any yanking back of the dogs neck no matter how brief.
Mark
I wasn't talking about harnesses though, the OP uses a slip lead on her dog and in that case then I do think that checking them back is more 'ethical' than continually letting them choke themselves.
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Now I feel really mean again...
Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.
I Don't agree Nicola, surely a harness is a more ethical solution in the best interests of the dog rather than any yanking back of the dogs neck no matter how brief.
Mark
I wasn't talking about harnesses though, the OP uses a slip lead on her dog and in that case then I do think that checking them back is more 'ethical' than continually letting them choke themselves.
Or, presumably, change the lead for something more humane? :huh:
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Hello there, I too am getting quite distressed about Sally pulling on the lead. She is only 12 wks old and has only been out on the lead for 1wk. We give her lots of off-lead time and her recall is pretty good, but as soon as the lead goes on she starts pulling. I'm so worried it's going to do her some damage. She may only be a puppy but I'm sure her pulling power would compete with that of my brother's huskies ;) Seriously though, it is a real worry. In all other respects she has been a star in her response to training. I've tried stopping, turning around etc...it doesn't seem to matter what direction we are heading in she pulls!! :huh: Is she too young for a harness?
(Hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread Alpha)
Sue
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I found a small sporn harness works well depending on the size of your pup.
mark
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I found a small sporn harness works well depending on the size of your pup.
mark
Thanks for the advice Mark, I shall look into that.
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Now I feel really mean again...
Don't. One quick check back on the lead is kinder than them constantly straining and choking themselves against it, I've seen dogs practically walking on their back legs garrotting themselves on their collars. That force is a lot more likely to cause damage.
yeah you ought to see some go round the show ring :005:front legs don't even touch ground some times :o i have done the same with tom one quick check better than be constantly choked!
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Is it just one check though? :huh:
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If it hurt them that much they would'nt pull again :huh: but of coarse they do :-\ i'm all for finding the kindest methods that work and use reward but he still sometimes pushes it he is like a 3/5 yrs child and they need guidence and some boundries sorry if this affends mark but everyone works differently ;)
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If it hurt them that much they would'nt pull again :huh: but of coarse they do :-\ i'm all for finding the kindest methods that work and use reward but he still sometimes pushes it he is like a 3/5 yrs child and they need guidence and some boundries sorry if this affends mark but everyone works differently ;)
No it doesn't offend me at all :D and as you say everyone has different methods but all I'll say in response is would you put something round your child's neck and yank it back? :huh:
If not why not? Don't they need to learn boundaries in the same way? :huh:
Yanking a dog back does not teach a dog what is right or wrong.
Dogs learn to ignore punishment (even if it hurts and dogs are very good at masking pain) and that is why low levels will not work and you will have to keep using it. ;)
If someone kept yanking you back by your neck I'm sure it would do your long term health prospects a world of good. >:D
You have the potential to damage your dog's health and your long term relationship by constantly yanking back but hey that is up to you.
If you are going to use punishment then it should be so severe so that it is only needed to be used once and not having to be constantly applied.
I really am becoming disillusioned with this forum at the minute as there is lots of talk of yanking and other aversive methods which have no place in the modern dog trainers armoury. :'(
I went to a springer last week who's owner had been showed the Jerk and release method by a local gun dog trainer and been advised to use a slip lead and give it a damn good yank. >:D
The owner wondered why the dog cowered when having the lead put on.
Why do you think that was then?
I'm not saying this is the case in every dog but it has the potential to be.
I have said before on this forum that owners must do what sits right with them but personally I can't bring myself to use physical punishment for what is a reflex action (which is what pulling is).
I suppose it's like if a doctor hit your knee with a hammer and your knee moved (reflex action) that someone yanked your leg as a punishment.
No matter what punishment you dole out the reflex action will still happen (You can't help it).
The key to this is to teach the dog to walk on a slack lead in the first place but this takes time and patience.
A lot of people I meet want it done yesterday so use punishment, which works for a time before the dog learns to ignore it which then makes matters worse as they have to keep using it and upping the anti.
I am not saying that yanking a dog back by its neck never works, but most owners I come accross do it in anger and frustration and do not understand how to apply punishment and have no concept of the possible pitfalls that go with it which is why many dogs end up being PTS or rehomed.
Mark
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Hello there, I too am getting quite distressed about Sally pulling on the lead. She is only 12 wks old and has only been out on the lead for 1wk. We give her lots of off-lead time and her recall is pretty good, but as soon as the lead goes on she starts pulling. I'm so worried it's going to do her some damage. She may only be a puppy but I'm sure her pulling power would compete with that of my brother's huskies ;) Seriously though, it is a real worry. In all other respects she has been a star in her response to training. I've tried stopping, turning around etc...it doesn't seem to matter what direction we are heading in she pulls!! :huh: Is she too young for a harness?
(Hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread Alpha)
Sue
12 weeks is also quite young plus sometimes its us that also needs showing how as well (I did 1-2-1s that were invaluable as the trainer could see my technique as well and showed me where I was going wrong). It still also took time with practice every night for 5-10 min or so round the block/along my street. Its also improtant to practise separately from when you're just initially taking her out for a walk or in a rush as you may set her up to fail.
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No i don't but the i can tell my children if they are good when we walk the dog round the block they will get a star on there chart or if they are naughty i'll take something they like anyway don't think that would work on thomas :005: :005: i only ever use a half check on thomas adjusted correctly and no i don't agree any animal should be fearfull of anything ! or anyone ! it 's when people do not apply these methods correctly you get probs ;)
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Then why risk it?! ;)
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12 weeks is also quite young plus sometimes its us that also needs showing how as well (I did 1-2-1s that were invaluable as the trainer could see my technique as well and showed me where I was going wrong). It still also took time with practice every night for 5-10 min or so round the block/along my street. Its also improtant to practise separately from when you're just initially taking her out for a walk or in a rush as you may set her up to fail.
Thanks for the advice Penny, I'll certainly try round the block every evening when we're all relaxed :D and I'm at puppy class again tomorrow so will ask the trainer to keep an eye on me ;)
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12 weeks is also quite young plus sometimes its us that also needs showing how as well (I did 1-2-1s that were invaluable as the trainer could see my technique as well and showed me where I was going wrong). It still also took time with practice every night for 5-10 min or so round the block/along my street. Its also improtant to practise separately from when you're just initially taking her out for a walk or in a rush as you may set her up to fail.
Thanks for the advice Penny, I'll certainly try round the block every evening when we're all relaxed :D and I'm at puppy class again tomorrow so will ask the trainer to keep an eye on me ;)
Also they haven't still quite bonded with you enough to focus on you at this age (there are so many other competing distractions like the leaf on the pavement :005:), and by the same token you may not have found the best way to focus her attention either. As her attention span gets greater you will see more improvements in lots of things.