CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: toffee on August 31, 2007, 10:10:25 AM
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i posted a few weeks ago about my dog howling and barking when we leave the house, and i thought id cracked it by leaving her out of her crate..however she is still doing it. Also my neighbour posted a rather nasty letter through the door while i was out yesterday telling me to stop her barking. She barks when someone knocks on the door, which happened yesterday morning..i tried to distract her, which stopped her barking, but she still wants to go see who it is so she can get their attention. As for when i leave the house..its never for long an hour maybe 2 at most and not very often. I try putting her in her crate..(not locking it), give her a chew or something to keep her occupied (sometimes some of my clothes as she usually steals them anyway)..i tell her shes a good girl and that i wont be long and leave, when i come back i try to ignore her until she settles down..yet apparently she still does it. i know im doing something wrong, but i dont know what else to do.
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Hiya, I am sorry that you are having these problems. Unfortunately I have no real advice to offer you. Fern has just started barking much more and no matter what I say or do she still does it everytime - its not too bad because she stops as soon as the person goes (e.g the postman), but it is still annoying when she does do it. Helpful for preventing burglaries though! Hers isn't separation anxiety either so very different to what you are experiencing.
I think there are ways to prevent barking but I don't know what they are. There was a thread on here recently "do anti bark collars work" with a little bit of advice which might be a start, failing that, a consultation with a behaviourist might be necessary.
Our neighbours dogs bark quite a bit but as long as I know they are not in distress It doesn't bother me. If I hear dogs barking and I feel they are distressed then i might say something, but sometimes its just what dogs do. You could see if there is any advice from the Animal Welfare Officer at your local district council, as that is where any complaint would be made by your neigbour. If you get them on your side first it would be a good move.
If separation is the issue I have read on here somewhere about some tactics but I am not sure without doing a search where they were - have a good look around previous threads and you might find some useful advice. I am surprised no-one has replied to your post yet, as this sort of problem isn't unusual, but I know it is very distressing. Good luck
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Sorry your having such problems :-\ I might be on the wrong lines here but I would tackle the barking at home firstly which may settle your dog down for when she is left on her own.
My 11 month puppy started barking recently and I have gone with "Cesar Milan's" (Dog Whisperer) method of blocking ie. standing in front of what the dog is barking at then making a "tssst" noise while touching the dogs neck. It does mean you have to jump up and be ready to catch your dog doing it but, it is working with Milly and now if I just make the tssst noise she won't bark.
Cesar suggested that barking may be a form of the dog protecting you and being the leader of the pack and it is therefore necessary to show the dog that you don't need this protection (I have heard that dogs can sense when protection is needed). Hopefully this may rub of on the separation anxiety as your dog may feel more secure that you are the pack leader and will return.
On the other hand you could always get your dog a companion, I'm sure that would help :D.
I hope you get lots of useful replies. Best of luck and hopefully your nasty >:D neighbour will stay away
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Im not sure Cesar Millan's methods are widely followed on the forum and although I have never watched his programme, nor read any of his books I think his methods can be cruel and outdated. ph34r ph34r
If your dog is suffering seperation anxiety you need to build up the time you are leaving the dog alone. Leave the house and then come straight back in, before the barking starts, it will be a long old process and there is no over night fix. Have you tried leaving a radio on? Confining your dog to one room?? You also need to give your dog something to do whilst you are out.... a marrowbone, a kong, any toy that keeps them occupied. I would think that your dog is barking because he is stressed - although someone may be able to enlighten me/you more on this.
I wouldnt necessarily advise getting another companion - first of all your dog may teach your new dog bad habits and alot of the time dogs dont crave dog company, they crave human company :blink:
In the meantime why dont you go and have a quiet word with your neighbour and say that you know there is a problem and you are trying to rectify it but there is no overnight solution.
Have you also considered getting a behaviourist in? They will be able to give you positive methods of how to work with the problem and hopefully get a positive outcome. You will need to work with a trainer who uses positive reward based methods.
i think the website is www.apdt.co.uk - if thats wrong then just google apdt - and you should be able to find one local to you. If you are worried about cost most insurance companies cover behaviourist fees.
HTH
Cx
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Sorry your having such problems :-\ I might be on the wrong lines here but I would tackle the barking at home firstly which may settle your dog down for when she is left on her own.
My 11 month puppy started barking recently and I have gone with "Cesar Milan's" (Dog Whisperer) method of blocking ie. standing in front of what the dog is barking at then making a "tssst" noise while touching the dogs neck. It does mean you have to jump up and be ready to catch your dog doing it but, it is working with Milly and now if I just make the tssst noise she won't bark.
Cesar suggested that barking may be a form of the dog protecting you and being the leader of the pack and it is therefore necessary to show the dog that you don't need this protection (I have heard that dogs can sense when protection is needed). Hopefully this may rub of on the separation anxiety as your dog may feel more secure that you are the pack leader and will return.
What an absolute load of cobblers I can't believe this man believes this >:D
How are using these methods changing the way your dog is feeling? The dog is barking because something it is emotionally attached to has left it and the dog has no idea whether it is coming back.
Puppy's whine when separated from their mother, does this mean the are vying for "leadership of the pack"
I'm not going to get on my high horse again about Mr Milan, I have already made my feelings known elswhere on this forum.
The other dog route is also not one i would reccomend as separation anxiety is often linked to a certain set of events, locations or people or other pets so including a new dog would make no difference as this piece of the jigsaw would still be missing.
I would suggest you get professional help to show you how to deal with this issue in a kind fair and effective method.
The web address Caroline gave you has many good and caring trainers who may be able to help although you might also try the APBC as they are more behaviour oriented.
Mark
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we do our SA training in small increments starting off with leaving them alone for a matter of minutes in a different room and rewarding them for being quiet, its then extended over a period of time. Weims are well known for their SA problems but most its down to them spending too much time with us in the first place.
My dogs are crated if I leave them loose when I leave the house all hell breaks loose they settle very quickly in their crates and I don't usually get any fuss. I don't leave the doors open. I'm afraid my dogs don't get much time on their own as they go pretty much everywhere with me but I do train seperately so they get used to being on their own. I totally ignor them when i leave I found that if I make a fuss they in turn make a fuss because they are excited.
i hope you sort your problems out never easy when the neighbours are complaining.
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My Lab had terrible separation anxiety from around 9 months old, hers was displayed by mass destruction of my house. Once I'd identified that it was SA it was resolved within around six weeks or so.
Firstly I got a DAP defuser. DAP stands for Dog Appeasing Pheromones and the diffuser, looks very much like a plug in air freshener, give out synthetic replica of the pheromones bitches give out just as they've had pups. This helps give dogs a "sense of wellbeing" and can comfort them. You need to have it plugged in 24/7 for at least 3 months I would say for SA, thats about the time I had it in for. Obviously if she hasn't started to show signs of improvement keep on longer, or if you turn it off and she re-greases keep it plugged in for a prolonged period. You can get DAP defusers from your vets and online. This is ones of the cheapest online suppliers I've seen http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=149_2
You'll see they have a DAP spray and also a collar, which is a brand new product, but for SA I'd use the defuser.
I also used herbal drops for anxiety, which I would drop into her mouth a few minutes before I left. There are a number available, the actual one I used isn't available now. However I have used Company of Animals Anxiety Drops for other things since and they've worked well, also Dorwest do Valarian Compound Drops both of these are available from the same website as above. http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=666 and http://www.vetuk.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=472
Dorwest do a Scullcap and Valarian Tablets which you can buy directly from them, these are a registered herbal medicine where as the drops are classed as a dietary supplement. http://www.dorwest.com/new_pop_ups/scullcap_valerian_taps_vet.htm
After a couple of months I stopped using the drops, I'd play it by ear though.
I know you said you've left her with chews when you go out. I used various activity toys, for example Kongs, Squirrel Dude, Twist & Treat, most of which are available from http://www.dog-toy.co.uk/dogproducts/?page=3 The big difference was that she only ever got one of these things when I went out, so in the end she got more excited at the prospect of getting one of these when she saw them come out and her focus was very much on that and not on me leaving.
Once she gets adept at using the Kong there are various ways of filling them and freezing or microwaving them to prolong her entertainment.
Another thing you could leave her with is the Buster Cube. http://www.dog-games.co.uk/newshop/product/Buster+Cube+treat+toy+-+Large+and+Small+sizes.htm
At the time I was told to limit how much access she had to rooms in the house. Apparently sometimes dogs can fret if they feel they have too much space that they have to "look after", so we limited her to our entrance hall whilst we were addressing this anxiety. A crate may be the answer for some, I am a crate user, however I do know that my cocker creates much more when left in his crate because he thinks he's missing out on something. ::) So for him leaving him out of the crate resolved that.
As you have a crate I'd leave it in the room you are going to limit her to, leave it open and cover three sides of it with a blanket, just leaving the front open, to create a den for her that she may feel safe in.
Sapphi was my first pup, and her separation anxiety was down to me. I'm at home all the time, rarely going out, I only ever went and did my housework etc when she'd fallen asleep, when she was awake I'd sit and play with her. Therefore she didn't learn about being on her own and occupying herself. So as well as working on the things I've stated, I began to put some distance between us, shutting doors so she couldn't follow me. Just for very short periods at first and I built up.
I also left the TV or radio on which can really help too.
Having learnt my lessons from this, I worked hard at not falling into the same trap with my subsequent pups. They are all happy to be left on their own. I didn't get my second pup until I'd resolved this with Sapphi.
I don't necessarily think that a companion will make a difference. As already has been said there is every possibility that she will transfer her anxiety on to her companion. I have recently looked after a friends two cocker's, they both have SA to varying degrees. Interestingly they used to being left for a few hours a day while she is at work, they have companionship from each other yet they do suffer with SA. So just adding a companion isn't the answer.
Hope this helps a little.
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I, like Craftysam, am at home and made some very silly mistakes of not leaving pup alone to go and do house work etc
Thankfully for me there was a thread (think it was from Craftysam) that I learnt from as we were starting to go down the SA route
I confined them to one room in the house and I left them in there and went off to another room and built it up very slowly. To start I literally did 10 secs and built it up.
Now I make sure that the dogs are all left in said room for at least an hour a day. If I'm not going out I do housework or just go and read a book quietly. I call it ME time :005:
I found it very difficult to start due to the layout of the house - kitchen / diner and lounge all one room (have seperate lounge upstairs) so if I wanted to clean I had to make sure I was prepared with everything I needed out the kitchen, nearly lways forgot something. (solution would have been putting cleaning stuff in another room, but not really practical)
Good luck and take it slowly - also try and go and speak to your neighbour tell them you understand their letter and explain what you are going to be doing to rectify the situation, you never know they may help you.
Also please look at getting help from an APDT or APBC behaviourist trainer ;)
Oooh just another thought of what I did - not perfect for everyone but - I tried to have someone in the house all the time when I went out (I would say goodbye to the said person and the dogs would see them leave, then I would distract the dogs so that said person could come back in and settle in another room, I would then put the dogs out for toilet and get them ready for me to leave as tho I was the only in the house and i would leave. This way there was someone to report fully, normally OH and should things get out of control he could walk in and deal with the situation, so as not to get complaints from neighbours etc. (OK I know I don't have neighbours but I needed to know how they were doing, but it could benefit you with relations with your neighbours ;) ) As i said not ideal for everyone but worth seeing if you could do something similar)
Hope things improve but it will definately take time and the best way to deal with this IMO is to do it very slowly
I also agree that you shouldn't get another dog of any age until you have dealt with these issues
Hope some of that helps ;)
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thanks for all your advice :) i have lots of things to try with her. i do have another dog, shes a 16 year old yorkshire terrier but she doesnt bark when we go out..only if someone knocks on the door. And as for my neighbour i explained about a week ago about the dog barking and that i was working on it..but she expects instant compliance with anything she says and if you dare say anything that goes against her she ignores you, so currently being ignored by her lol. I called our local dog trainer and he mentioned the DAP, so i think i might try that and also the toys to start with. Also the 'tsst' and standing infront of the person she barks at is something i really must do, esp with my mam being diabled she has nurses and specialists coming around quite often.
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I had a springer spaniel who howled and barked when i left him in the house, i didn't actually know until my neighbour knocked on the door and told me how terrible it was and as they worked nights they couldn't sleep during the day because of the howling.
So i decided to get a dog behavourist to visit the house, it was an old couple who had dealt with the problem of howling many times before, before they arrived they told me to put my dog in a different room so they didn't have contact with him, They said i was giving my dog too much attention, they asked if when i stroked and cuddled my dog, would the dog walk away first which is what had happened, they said i should stoke the dog then push him away once i had finnished stroking him also you shouldn't let the dog go into a room first, you should go first then the dog should follow, i then brought my dog through and they completly ignored him. He didn't like it one bit and growled at them and went back into the other room. They said he thinks he's the boss, the leader of the pack because dogs are pack animals and when i go out and leave him he thinks im going hunting etc!? I also used to leave food for him before i left too! They said i should never leave food because he thinks i must be going for a long time if i leave food! Although this all sounds strange i tried not giving him as much attention, and did what they told me to and it actually worked, i asked my neighbours and they said they hadnt heard anything! The problem was solved, maybe i was just lucky!
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I had a springer spaniel who howled and barked when i left him in the house, i didn't actually know until my neighbour knocked on the door and told me how terrible it was and as they worked nights they couldn't sleep during the day because of the howling.
So i decided to get a dog behavourist to visit the house, it was an old couple who had dealt with the problem of howling many times before, before they arrived they told me to put my dog in a different room so they didn't have contact with him, They said i was giving my dog too much attention, they asked if when i stroked and cuddled my dog, would the dog walk away first which is what had happened, they said i should stoke the dog then push him away once i had finnished stroking him also you shouldn't let the dog go into a room first, you should go first then the dog should follow, i then brought my dog through and they completly ignored him. He didn't like it one bit and growled at them and went back into the other room. They said he thinks he's the boss, the leader of the pack because dogs are pack animals and when i go out and leave him he thinks im going hunting etc!? I also used to leave food for him before i left too! They said i should never leave food because he thinks i must be going for a long time if i leave food! Although this all sounds strange i tried not giving him as much attention, and did what they told me to and it actually worked, i asked my neighbours and they said they hadnt heard anything! The problem was solved, maybe i was just lucky!
Although the dominance theory described is no longer considered valid by a lot of dog trainers - the technique used of giving your dog less attention when you are there can be very successful in some mild cases of separation anxiety ;)
Bonnee screamed/cried when we left her alone for the first few days - even putting her behind a baby gate with us in the next room was too much for her :'( Instead of giving her loads of fuss and attention (which is what my OH wanted to do), I insisted that we give her very little fuss; no cuddles or coochee-coo voices, and a slow gradual training of being left alone - first for a few seconds, then a minute or so, over and over again during the day and by the next day I managed to have a shower without her shouting from downstairs. A week later, she was sleeping alone and happy to be left for a couple of hours ;)