CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: tinstaafl on September 04, 2007, 08:54:41 PM
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I know that Mick (??) from Dog Borstal is a bit of a gobby chav but his idea (on an overweight cocker, as it happens) of "water aversion therapy" was to get the owner to throw a glass of water directly in the dog's face. You should have seen how the dog reacted - poor thing was terrified. My understanding was that this type of training was supposed to involve a quick squirt from a water pistol behind the dog's ear so it didn't realise where the water came from.
Of course, after three attempts to get the thing to stop barking, this "technique" worked - a bit like belting it around the face with a rolled up newspaper would have done. And the owner hasn't really trained the dog, she's only made it frightened of barking in front of her. So now, presumably, ignorant viewers now think it's acceptable to use essentially bullying methods to train their dogs.
Dog Borstal - another reason why the licence fee should be abolished.....
Simon
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Oh doG - when will the broadcasters realise that this is NOT entertainment >:(
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i watched this and was in shock, it was a whole cup of water, the way she shouted would have frightened me ph34r
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Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to put a formal complaint in to the BBC. I think it was way out of order...
Simon
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Fan tastic I love this program :shades: Im also looking to see of cesar milan is doing a british show as Daisy will be his first pupil ;)
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Fan tastic I love this program :shades: Im also looking to see of cesar milan is doing a british show as Daisy will be his first pupil ;)
(http://totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/images/smiles/naughtywag_smilie.gif)
The only redeeming thing about CM is that he settles out of court when people sue him ::)
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i watched this and was in shock, it was a whole cup of water, the way she shouted would have frightened me ph34r
Do you live with a dog that is a nurotic barker that bark bark bark bark bark bark barks the whole day long for no reason. Im sorry but throwing a cup of water in a dogs face to get in to stop barking does work, I use the watering can on Daisy outside and it does work. If I cannot stop Daisy's nurotic barking what will it lead to, it will lead to my neighbours complaining and then what, she is taken away or worse :-\
With some dogs you can easily cure them with simple tactics, but unless you have experienced a dog that has a human head on its shoulders and is a dam sight clever that you (or so they think) do not condem these people until you have been in the situation youself. Why do you think these dogs are there in the first place ::) Think about it ;)
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Fan tastic I love this program :shades: Im also looking to see of cesar milan is doing a british show as Daisy will be his first pupil ;)
(http://totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/images/smiles/naughtywag_smilie.gif)
The only redeeming thing about CM is that he settles out of court when people sue him ::)
Rachael
I would quite happily have him here to work with daisy, just ask any one from here that knows her and they will prob agree with me ;)
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i watched this and was in shock, it was a whole cup of water, the way she shouted would have frightened me ph34r
With some dogs you can easily cure them with simple tactics, but unless you have experienced a dog that has a human head on its shoulders and is a dam sight clever that you (or so they think) do not condem these people until you have been in the situation youself. Why do you think these dogs are there in the first place ::) Think about it ;)
This particular dog was there 'cos it's owner was useless and had never done anything with it. It weighed 23kg, and was fed an apalling diet, including a daily treat of a tub of candy floss. >:D ::)
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I take it this is a new series? I missed it >:(
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Yeah. You didn't miss much. ;)
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i watched this and was in shock, it was a whole cup of water, the way she shouted would have frightened me ph34r
Do you live with a dog that is a nurotic barker that bark bark bark bark bark bark barks the whole day long for no reason. Im sorry but throwing a cup of water in a dogs face to get in to stop barking does work, I use the watering can on Daisy outside and it does work. If I cannot stop Daisy's nurotic barking what will it lead to, it will lead to my neighbours complaining and then what, she is taken away or worse :-\
With some dogs you can easily cure them with simple tactics, but unless you have experienced a dog that has a human head on its shoulders and is a dam sight clever that you (or so they think) do not condem these people until you have been in the situation youself. Why do you think these dogs are there in the first place ::) Think about it ;)
Fan tastic I love this program :shades: Im also looking to see of cesar milan is doing a british show as Daisy will be his first pupil ;)
(http://totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/images/smiles/naughtywag_smilie.gif)
The only redeeming thing about CM is that he settles out of court when people sue him ::)
Rachael
I would quite happily have him here to work with daisy, just ask any one from here that knows her and they will prob agree with me ;)
Cazzie - I can PM you the positive methods we have used to train Bonnee ;) She was re-homed to us due to her excessive noise, and in six weeks we have made great progress, despite living next door to the most dog-intolerant neighbour in the world :-\
If the likes of Mick and CM believe that their methods are a "last resort" and without them then the dog would be PTS, then although I disagree, I would be prepared to accept they have the dogs best interests at heart. However, the fact that they consider it acceptable to broadcast their work on TV (in order for them to make money), when they know that there are thousands of inexperienced pet owners who will misuse and misapply their techniques on dogs that do not need them undermines their altruistic motives somewhat :-\
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Water is a fav anti barking remedy used to be a surprise attack on a barking dog, many's a dog having water squirted or throw at it with the command NO has worked wonders. ;)
As I didnt see the program did he physically beat the dog or use physical punishment :-\ Probably not, dogs dont like having water squirted on their faces and there has been many a time our kenneled dogs have heard the water coming throught the hose and backed off to their beds before the water has even touched them ;)
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Of course, the owner was moronic, the dog was severely overweight and she clearly needed more training than the dog - as they always do in these sorts of programs.
Our pup barks continually, at leaves, birds on the TV, me, dustbin lorries, EVERYTHING. We're working on it and he will get better. However, I will never throw a glass of water in his face and anyone who thinks that is acceptable is very misguided. As IWLass points out, there will ahve been thousands of viewers, some as stupid as the trainer in question, who will now think that this method of "training" is appropriate.
Anyhoo, I've put a formal complaint into the BBC through their internal system. I will send a letter to the Director General tomorrow. I don't intend to let this one go >:D
Simon
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Of course, the owner was moronic, the dog was severely overweight and she clearly needed more training than the dog - as they always do in these sorts of programs.
Our pup barks continually, at leaves, birds on the TV, me, dustbin lorries, EVERYTHING. We're working on it and he will get better. However, I will never throw a glass of water in his face and anyone who thinks that is acceptable is very misguided. As IWLass points out, there will ahve been thousands of viewers, some as stupid as the trainer in question, who will now think that this method of "training" is appropriate.
Anyhoo, I've put a formal complaint into the BBC through their internal system. I will send a letter to the Director General tomorrow. I don't intend to let this one go >:D
Simon
Mmm like to have you here for a day youd do more than throw a cup of water at daisy, infact I dont think youd last a day as I know for sure you certainly wouldnt get any sleep :lol:
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Water is a fav anti barking remedy used to be a surprise attack on a barking dog, many's a dog having water squirted or throw at it with the command NO has worked wonders. ;)
As I didnt see the program did he physically beat the dog or use physical punishment :-\ Probably not, dogs dont like having water squirted on their faces and there has been many a time our kenneled dogs have heard the water coming throught the hose and backed off to their beds before the water has even touched them ;)
The dog was clearly very frightened. I'm quite a realist when it comes to dog training but it turned my stomach. We're not talking about a squirt of water here Cazzie, we're talking about throwing a glass of water directly at the dogs face whilst shouting loudly at it. It came across as cruel and abusive, simple as that.
Simon
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i watched this and was in shock, it was a whole cup of water, the way she shouted would have frightened me ph34r
Do you live with a dog that is a nurotic barker that bark bark bark bark bark bark barks the whole day long for no reason. Im sorry but throwing a cup of water in a dogs face to get in to stop barking does work, I use the watering can on Daisy outside and it does work. If I cannot stop Daisy's nurotic barking what will it lead to, it will lead to my neighbours complaining and then what, she is taken away or worse :-\
With some dogs you can easily cure them with simple tactics, but unless you have experienced a dog that has a human head on its shoulders and is a dam sight clever that you (or so they think) do not condem these people until you have been in the situation youself. Why do you think these dogs are there in the first place ::) Think about it ;)
Fan tastic I love this program :shades: Im also looking to see of cesar milan is doing a british show as Daisy will be his first pupil ;)
(http://totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/images/smiles/naughtywag_smilie.gif)
The only redeeming thing about CM is that he settles out of court when people sue him ::)
Rachael
I would quite happily have him here to work with daisy, just ask any one from here that knows her and they will prob agree with me ;)
Cazzie - I can PM you the positive methods we have used to train Bonnee ;) She was re-homed to us due to her excessive noise, and in six weeks we have made great progress, despite living next door to the most dog-intolerant neighbour in the world :-\
If the likes of Mick and CM believe that their methods are a "last resort" and without them then the dog would be PTS, then although I disagree, I would be prepared to accept they have the dogs best interests at heart. However, the fact that they consider it acceptable to broadcast their work on TV (in order for them to make money), when they know that there are thousands of inexperienced pet owners who will misuse and misapply their techniques on dogs that do not need them undermines their altruistic motives somewhat :-\
Im always open to new things for daisy Rachael, so that info would be great, I could start a diary on Driving Miss Daisy :lol: ;)
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Of course, the owner was moronic, the dog was severely overweight and she clearly needed more training than the dog - as they always do in these sorts of programs.
Our pup barks continually, at leaves, birds on the TV, me, dustbin lorries, EVERYTHING. We're working on it and he will get better. However, I will never throw a glass of water in his face and anyone who thinks that is acceptable is very misguided. As IWLass points out, there will ahve been thousands of viewers, some as stupid as the trainer in question, who will now think that this method of "training" is appropriate.
Anyhoo, I've put a formal complaint into the BBC through their internal system. I will send a letter to the Director General tomorrow. I don't intend to let this one go >:D
Simon
Mmm like to have you here for a day youd do more than throw a cup of water at daisy, infact I dont think youd last a day as I know for sure you certainly wouldnt get any sleep :lol:
I can sleep through earthquakes :)
Simon
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Water is a fav anti barking remedy used to be a surprise attack on a barking dog, many's a dog having water squirted or throw at it with the command NO has worked wonders. ;)
As I didnt see the program did he physically beat the dog or use physical punishment :-\ Probably not, dogs dont like having water squirted on their faces and there has been many a time our kenneled dogs have heard the water coming throught the hose and backed off to their beds before the water has even touched them ;)
The dog was clearly very frightened. I'm quite a realist when it comes to dog training but it turned my stomach. We're not talking about a squirt of water here Cazzie, we're talking about throwing a glass of water directly at the dogs face whilst shouting loudly at it. It came across as cruel and abusive, simple as that.
Simon
As I said I didnt see it and you did, and it obviously was that bad that you are going to complain about it. I get on my high horse with regards to people treating dogs like china and creating problems like I have done with Daisy, but if the owners were to blame then I can certainly see where you are coming from as I certainly would not distress any dog. Daisy is a whole diff ball game, she is a JRT so I shall say no more ;)
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Water is a fav anti barking remedy used to be a surprise attack on a barking dog, many's a dog having water squirted or throw at it with the command NO has worked wonders. ;)
As I didnt see the program did he physically beat the dog or use physical punishment :-\ Probably not, dogs dont like having water squirted on their faces and there has been many a time our kenneled dogs have heard the water coming throught the hose and backed off to their beds before the water has even touched them ;)
The dog was clearly very frightened. I'm quite a realist when it comes to dog training but it turned my stomach. We're not talking about a squirt of water here Cazzie, we're talking about throwing a glass of water directly at the dogs face whilst shouting loudly at it. It came across as cruel and abusive, simple as that.
Simon
i think what shocked me was yes the overweight bit, the candy floss bit and the fact that this woman didn't have a clue.
it was more than a squirt, the shouting to accompany the water didn't help either
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That's awful, :-\ i didn't see it but i'm tempted to complain. Will it be repeated anywhere?
Do you live with a dog that is a nurotic barker that bark bark bark bark bark bark barks the whole day long for no reason. Im sorry but throwing a cup of water in a dogs face to get in to stop barking does work, I use the watering can on Daisy outside and it does work. If I cannot stop Daisy's nurotic barking what will it lead to, it will lead to my neighbours complaining and then what, she is taken away or worse :-\
With some dogs you can easily cure them with simple tactics, but unless you have experienced a dog that has a human head on its shoulders and is a dam sight clever that you (or so they think) do not condem these people until you have been in the situation youself. Why do you think these dogs are there in the first place ::) Think about it ;)
Cazzie, i live with a dog who was a neurotic barker, and tbh i think you've hit the nail on the head with your choice of word, neurotic, as in nervous and stressed, it's not for no reason. :-\ it took Lucy took almost a year with me before she calmed down to the point where she didn't yap every time we left the flat for a wee.
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My daisy never barked till she was almost 2, she was brought up in the middle of nowhere with abs nothing around to make her bark. She started barking like alot of terriers when she was playing with a ball/stick or toy, it then esculated into her barking to get what she wanted. She will also bark or speak for many different things. I cant even take Daisy now in the front of the car like I used to all the time as she will not let me leave the car without an almightly scene, she will not let anyone leave the house without throwing a tantrum, I cant feed the other dogs without her going crazy, I cant leave the house without her going crazy and pick up a lead/ball/bit of food and she goes doolally. She goes crazy when the other dogs come back froma walk and starts her barking around 5am, she also sits and growls at things all day, she is waiting for the next thing to bark for.
Daisy is not a frightened dog, very far from it, she alway has to challenge my authority and she always always has to have the last word, she is ext clever and obedient and I would say she is the most obedient (apart from Belle) when doing what she is asked but BARK thats a different ball game. If you say quiet to daisy as you do when training a dog to do this, she is quiet, click and treat, or distract her with something really nice make her sit and so on, she will then once thats finished or you turn your back is off the the original place where she casued a scene and starts all over again. >:(
Ive yet to meet someone who can help me overcome this with Daisy but im sure I will someday, thats if its not too late by then. :005:
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A friend of mine,who is a world renown springer spaniel breeder of working dogs,trains them not to bark by saying no,then if they take no notice of the stern no, he then sprays a small amount of water at their face from a small plant sprayer !! He sells his dogs,fully trained at retrieve,heel,etc etc all over the world ! If they are disobedient he bites their ears as their mothers would have done !! They are just the best behaved dogs you could ever wish to meet !! Oh, and he adores them and they him. So perhaps we all have different ways of achieving the same thing. :blink:
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I didn't see it so can't comment on the actual programme but going from the comments I have read there seems to be a difference between using water to startle the dog enough to make it stop barking and frightening it into submission which I don't think I agree with.
Anyone know if its repeated anywhere?
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September, did you get my PM?
Simon
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I believe it is on again tomorrow (Thursday) at 8pm on BBC 3. ;)
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A friend of mine,who is a world renown springer spaniel breeder of working dogs,trains them not to bark by saying no,then if they take no notice of the stern no, he then sprays a small amount of water at their face from a small plant sprayer !! He sells his dogs,fully trained at retrieve,heel,etc etc all over the world ! If they are disobedient he bites their ears as their mothers would have done !! They are just the best behaved dogs you could ever wish to meet !! Oh, and he adores them and they him. So perhaps we all have different ways of achieving the same thing. :blink:
I wouldnt bite a dogs ear thats a bit extreme and ive never seen a mother dog bite her puppies ears either :-\ :o You can train a dog to bark on command but training a dog not to bark is a diff ball game as you cant be with them all the time ;)
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A friend of mine,who is a world renown springer spaniel breeder of working dogs,trains them not to bark by saying no,then if they take no notice of the stern no, he then sprays a small amount of water at their face from a small plant sprayer !! He sells his dogs,fully trained at retrieve,heel,etc etc all over the world ! If they are disobedient he bites their ears as their mothers would have done !! They are just the best behaved dogs you could ever wish to meet !! Oh, and he adores them and they him. So perhaps we all have different ways of achieving the same thing. :blink:
I wouldnt bite a dogs ear thats a bit extreme and ive never seen a mother dog bite her puppies ears either :-\ :o You can train a dog to bark on command but training a dog not to bark is a diff ball game as you cant be with them all the time ;)
I agree, and especially with spaniels, who's ears dangle in everything, i'm not sure it'd taste too nice either. >:( :lol:
ph34r I managed to train Lucy to coo on command, but cannot get her to stop on command, now she coos when she wants a treat :lol: so we have to ignore all noise from her completely. ph34r (Ignoring her is making a huge difference though :D)
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I saw the programme and quite frankly I think the owner should have had the water thrown over her to wake her up to what a stupid person she was. Whay do people allow their dogs to get in such a state?!! >:D
My (limited) understanding is that water aversion therapy can be very successful in such cases, though as previously noted it is usually a squirt and not a full glass of water thrown in the face. I think that the methodology was perhaps good, but actually putting it into practice was a bit OTT, especially when the programme is watched by owners who will also try to put these methods into practice with their own dogs. They need to think more about the consequences of their actions.
And trying to get a JRT to stop barking - well that is always a bit of a severe challenge isn't it!! :005: I can understand why Cazzie would be willing to try anything!!
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dearie me... the dog wasn't that bothered about it, soon settle and sat at the bottom of the tree if it had been stressed it would have been pulling and cowering not comfortably waiting for the nice treat that it was getting or the praise for being quiet.
Most dogs aren't bothered about a bit of water if I chucked water at mine which I don't she'd have a right old laugh with it... sticks her head under the tap, drinks from the bottle, rolls in any puddle she can find and loves running under the hose :D :D
I thought the piece about the deaf dog was fantastic especially a bull breed, his owner had excellent hand signals nice big and open, was very proud of the little mite when he came running all that way on his recall in the test.
Also interesting to see the owners of the rescue who had gotten a little too sympathetic with their dog to see the dangers of its dog aggression their 'she's only playing' was something I see alot of by owners who don't recognise the problems in their own dogs and blame it on others when fights occur. They were visably shocked when she tried to attack the dog brought in and thankfully it sunk in that they needed to do something about it, exactly what they did hats off to them never easy to find fault in something that has not had a good start to life.
No matter whose program is shown on tv there is always going to be someone that doesn't agree with the training methods but better that these programs are on to encourage other people who don't train their dogs than have nothing to show people how irresponsible they are being.
Hope the cocker got a decent diet in the end lovely dog such a pity to see them overweight like that.
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It's just a shame that people copy all these training methods and then behaviourists have to pick up the pieces afterwards if it hasn't worked or made the problem worse... >:( Many aversives appear to work, but create other problems elsewhere which most dogowners won't pick up on. That's why I am so reluctant to use them... unless I am around a dog all the time and can see what the longterm effects are.
I too have a spaniel that used to bark lots... waiting for food, at the door, wanting to play etc. He is no problem now... we ignored all attention barking and reinforced any noises other than bark. He now makes funny whiney noises when waiting for his food - no problem for me, no problem for the neighbours. Quite entertaining really. With the door, we taught him to get a toy to answer the door. Although he has now learned to bark with a toy in his mouth... :005:, it is a muffled bark and no problem. This method can be used in all sorts of situations... all we have to say now is "where's your ball" and he gets a toy and prances and dances about with that instead.
Positive training methods are not "simple"... I take exception to that! They are not just for basic training and when it gets heavy going, we take the guns out! Positive training methods can be used for everything, usually more successfully than other methods. I am not saying that aversives or even punishment can never be used, but both aversives and punishments can have so many possible side effects even when used correctly and well timed (which in 90% of cases it isn't!!!) that it just isn't usually worth it! It is certainly not something that should be shown on TV where people go copying things without thinking about it twice - despite the warnings that are shown in both Dog Borstal and Cesar Millan...
Vera
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Did any one else watch this last night? It was the start of a new series .It involved a deaf Bull Terrier,a rescue Rottie & a cocker spaniel.The cocker spaniel had a problem with eating anything it could get hold of.The lady who owned it had been feeding it candy floss and other items that were not good for it (it was very overweight).They ended up with Mick Martin training her :o. I give that lady her due,after being made very aware by Mick to the fact she was killing her dog,she did actuallly listen and by the end of the programe on the up date the dog was a very different animal and the lady a much better owner.
This programme is repeated thursday (tomorrow) at 8pm on BBC3
Have merged this post into an already existing thread.
Michele
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dearie me... the dog wasn't that bothered about it, soon settle and sat at the bottom of the tree if it had been stressed it would have been pulling and cowering not comfortably waiting for the nice treat that it was getting or the praise for being quiet.
Tasha, I absolutely agree !! I did watch it, and didn't think for a second that the dog was frightened, petrified or other such words that people have used on this thread to describe 'Joe's' reaction.
I'd say he looked a little suprised, but was clearly not stupid, and 'got it' very quickly. It wasn't a case of beating him into submission!
And he seemed a lot happier as a result !
To have made such a big point about this, but not all the atrocious things that the owner had been doing out of 'love'(candy floss in particular), I find surprising frankly.
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Vera I'm afraid your dogs whining would not be tolerated in my house. We sometimes get dogs that come to training that have learnt to whine because they have always been trained on their own and have no patience, can't stand it and you certainly can't put up with it on a shoot if your working them would drive everyone mad.
In some respects you've not solved your problem just changed the bahaviour slightly...
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Vera I'm afraid your dogs whining would not be tolerated in my house. We sometimes get dogs that come to training that have learnt to whine because they have always been trained on their own and have no patience, can't stand it and you certainly can't put up with it on a shoot if your working them would drive everyone mad.
In some respects you've not solved your problem just changed the bahaviour slightly...
I have changed a behaviour that was not acceptable for me into something that IS acceptable for ME in that particular situation! That doesn't mean that it would be acceptable for anyone else! It is the only situation where he whines (it is not a whining really, it's a very interesting and funny noise...). And trust me, he has learnt patience as a default - eventhough it's not his nature at all... we have four dogs! Jesse (8 months old) is the youngest!
I am not saying that people should (or shouldn't for that matter) accept whining... that's down to each owner to decide. I am talking about one possible option that I have taken in my situation to turn unacceptable behaviour into behaviour that is acceptable to us (doesn't mean it's got to be acceptable for anyone else). This was simply done by reinforcing what I wanted (quiet noises) and ignoring what I didn't want (barking). I didn't need to use aversives for it like water spray etc. If I had wanted to completely eliminate any noises, I would just have continued to ignore ALL noises not just the barking and it would have stopped and he would have sat quietly! But that wasn't what I expected him to do... quiet noises is no problem for me, and that's what I reinforced.
Oh, and we have no intention of using him for shoots or the like... he is an American cocker in full coat! He'd bring the whole forest home with him in his coat. Even if we did, it wouldn't be a problem. In our competitive obedience class, he has no problem at all awaiting his turn and the same goes at home when I train our dogs where he patiently waits for his turn without any noise at all! He's used to that from 8 weeks old!
Vera
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:D
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If they are disobedient he bites their ears as their mothers would have done !!
I can't believe this kind of archaic and ridiculous so called 'training' still goes on..... :-\
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If they are disobedient he bites their ears as their mothers would have done !!
I can't believe this kind of archaic and ridiculous so called 'training' still goes on..... :-\
Me neither - it's depressing, isn't it ? I can't think of any level of 'disobedience' from a puppy that would make me even consider sinking my teeth into it's ears. :o :-\
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Can't comment on this thread now as I'm just going to chuck a bucket of water over my dogs head cos he is barking (Do you really think I would?) :lol:
All they are doing is interupting a behaviour and surpressing it and not training the dog to do something more acceptable.
I'll be back for a rant later on this one but needless to say i am banging my head against a brick wall over some of the posts in the thread.
As for Mick Martin or cesar milan coming round here I would love it, but only to throw water at them kick them and see if it changed the way they responded. >:D
I am afraid to say this sort of training and a lack of understanding is still very prominent in the dog world as I am finding to my horror.
To quote one famous slogan for a high street bank " Their is better way", just takes skill , patience and know how to use it some of the time
What do I know?
:lol: ;)
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Hmmm, I'm looking forward to seeing the programme this evening, after all the discussion.
From the ones I've seen in the past, I do feel that clearly show that dogs are dogs and should be treated as such, and not humans or children or partners etc. I remember the woman in the last season who had an extra living room and tv for her dog and it wore a big while eating!
Can't comment on the water thing though, because I've never had a yappy dog. If Oscar starts to get that way, I'll turn to you all, before I ask Mic!
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Hmmm, I'm looking forward to seeing the programme this evening, after all the discussion.
From the ones I've seen in the past, I do feel that clearly show that dogs are dogs and should be treated as such, and not humans or children or partners etc. I remember the woman in the last season who had an extra living room and TV for her dog and it wore a big while eating!
Can't comment on the water thing though, because I've never had a yappy dog. If Oscar starts to get that way, I'll turn to you all, before I ask Mic!
So throwing water at a dog is how you should treat them?
I agree dogs should not be treated like children in one sense, but in another do you think that dogs need to learn what is acceptable in human society.
Everyone has different relationships with their dogs and I see mine as my buddies and companions not objects I have to bully to get what I want or impose my authority over. My authority over my dogs has been earned through trust and understanding and I have worked Bl**dy hard to get it to where it is.
I believe the key to my success as a dog trainer is the relationship of trust I have built with my own dogs and what this has taught me.
This relationship takes time to develop and involves understanding what makes an animal tick and motivates it to do certain things.
It is easy to throw water at a dog or kick it to stop what it is doing, but you are just burying the behaviour and not changing it.
I could have thrown water every time Bayley reacted aggressively towards someone when I got him but it was precisely this sort of punishment that contributed to his mistrust of humans in the first place.
I have said on here before that punishment does work, but it has pitfalls and it may not be long lasting.
Prime example, I went to a dog club the other night and some of the dogs were kicking off and barking at the other dogs.
The owners were all shouting NOOOOO and yanking up on the collars which stopped the barking stopped for a few seconds.
Then one woman took to throwing her keys at one dog who was carrying on and again it had the effect of stopping the barking for a split second.
Ok the dog stopped barking, but the dog was almost posing a question "what do you want me to do instead?"
This is the problem with DB They interupt but then don't train an alternative.
They also seem to have no idea about what is motivating the dog in the first place.
I was not instructing but I could not let this carry on so I butted in.
I tried explaining the reasons why the dog was kicking off which were plainly obvious to me, however the instructor could not see it.
I took the dog to the other end of the hall and began to calm it down with some TTouch.
I got the dog to a distance where it felt comfortable and began to let the dog look at the other dogs.
If the dog was calm it was rewarded and as it turned out we ended up about halfway towards the other dogs by the end of the night with no reaction. He was so chilled and calm for me and I don't know whether the instructor was embarrassed or impressed.
What I'm trying to say is if you treat the symptoms of a problem you may stop them for a while but treating the cause takes longer and I'm afraid me doing ttouch on a nice calm dog would not make as good TV as the old dear screaming and throwing things at the other end of the hall.
Yes what they do stops the behaviour briefly there and then but does it last?
I doubt it.
Mistiming and misusing the techniques shown on this programme can lead to opening up all sorts of cans of worms as well.
What I have seen on this show in the past is comparable with bullying.
Everyone lives their own way with their dogs and I guess people will all disagree about how best to do it forever and a day, but when you learn about dogs to an advanced level you really begin to tear your hair out that people do so much damage trying half heartedly to copy the techniques shown on programmes such as Dog Borstal and Cesar Milan.
I must have had three clients this week that have asked me if i watched the Dog Whisperer and have been shocked and horrified when I have voiced my disapproval.
I agree with Vera it is the dog trainers who are left to pick up the pieces from programmes like this and I suppose I should be glad of the business, but to be honest I rather not have it.
I have dogs with issues, I work with dogs with poor social skills on a daily basis and have never yet reached the desperation of throwing water at a dog.
If I had to do it I would give up.
Mark
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To quote one famous slogan for a high street bank " Their is better way", just takes skill , patience and know how to use it some of the time
What do I know?
:lol: ;)
You obviously know a great deal and that is why you are highly regarded on here by people who use the site regularly. I would listen to you before Mic or Ceaser every day of the week!
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I must have had three clients this week that have asked me if i watched the Dog Whisperer and have been shocked and horrified when I have voiced my disapproval.
I get the same. Worse even, my FIL keeps telling me he watches it and how good he thinks CM is because he gets results. He has never noticed him using a prong collar or anything else that hurts the dog... >:( I am at desperation point with him now and have decided to get a prong collar just so I can show him what CM does... :-\
Vera
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I must have had three clients this week that have asked me if i watched the Dog Whisperer and have been shocked and horrified when I have voiced my disapproval.
I get the same. Worse even, my FIL keeps telling me he watches it and how good he thinks CM is because he gets results. He has never noticed him using a prong collar or anything else that hurts the dog... >:( I am at desperation point with him now and have decided to get a prong collar just so I can show him what CM does... :-\
Vera
Did you ever see that video of when Pauline put a E collar on me Vera?
She put it on a low setting and I still jumped out of my chair much to everyones amusement.
I decided there and then just what i thought of such devices and that i could never use one on a dog.
Mark
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To quote one famous slogan for a high street bank " Their is better way", just takes skill , patience and know how to use it some of the time
What do I know?
:lol: ;)
You obviously know a great deal and that is why you are highly regarded on here by people who use the site regularly. I would listen to you before Mic or Ceaser every day of the week!
That is very kind thankyou.
There are a lot of people who know a whole lot more than me think the same way about these programmes.
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Mark
Daisy is a barker by nature as she is a JRT how do you train out of a dog what has been bred into them :-\ Its like training a working cocker not to hunt and training a Lab not to pick up. I can divert Daisy for a few seconds but she is defiant self willed and stubborn and WILL bark when she wants, she will even scarper out of my reach so that she can bark in peace >:( She knows exactly what she is doing and is extremely clever with it, she will also wait until my back is turned and sneak off out of my sight so she can kick off. The only way I can get her to pay any attention to me is to pick her up and talk to her but im afraid I cannot pick her up 24/7.
She also is not a chewer so I cant give her a bone, she is very distructive with toys so for her own safety there is no toy I can give her to divert her thoughts as she would have it ripped apart and eaten in no time. I have tried horns/grain in a jar/clicker training/treats/spray collar/ trainers/behaviourists to no avail, she is an absolute stinking little madam. Her and I are so close and bonded I think actually she does it now to wind me up as once she starts it she starts them all off.
I also cannot be awake 24 hours to divert her barking when she kicks off at 3 or 4am with a treat or some other method as it simply does not work. I have now resorted to shutting her in my bedroom when she stats as its nothing for her to continue to bark for half an hour. >:(
I am tbh getting sick to the back teeth of every 10 mins having to be on her case and quite frankly a spray with water is putting mildly what Id like to do with her. >:(
I would love someone like you to train her out of this extremely annoying habbit before I skin her alive :005:
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I must have had three clients this week that have asked me if i watched the Dog Whisperer and have been shocked and horrified when I have voiced my disapproval.
I get the same. Worse even, my FIL keeps telling me he watches it and how good he thinks CM is because he gets results. He has never noticed him using a prong collar or anything else that hurts the dog... >:( I am at desperation point with him now and have decided to get a prong collar just so I can show him what CM does... :-\
Vera
Did you ever see that video of when Pauline put a E collar on me Vera?
She put it on a low setting and I still jumped out of my chair much to everyones amusement.
I decided there and then just what i thought of such devices and that i could never use one on a dog.
Mark
No, I don't think so, Mark. And I didn't try it on myself. I am a right coward when it comes to electricity - was the same at school when they did experiments. I run a mile... And that's why I could never imagine to put a shock collar on a dog, because I know how frightened of it I am (though I know of course that the dog will - at first - have no preconception of the effect).
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Mark
Daisy is a barker by nature as she is a JRT how do you train out of a dog what has been bred into them :-\ Its like training a working cocker not to hunt and training a Lab not to pick up. I can divert Daisy for a few seconds but she is defiant self willed and stubborn and WILL bark when she wants, she will even scarper out of my reach so that she can bark in peace >:( She knows exactly what she is doing and is extremely clever with it, she will also wait until my back is turned and sneak off out of my sight so she can kick off. The only way I can get her to pay any attention to me is to pick her up and talk to her but im afraid I cannot pick her up 24/7.
She also is not a chewer so I cant give her a bone, she is very distructive with toys so for her own safety there is no toy I can give her to divert her thoughts as she would have it ripped apart and eaten in no time. I have tried horns/grain in a jar/clicker training/treats/spray collar/ trainers/behaviourists to no avail, she is an absolute stinking little madam. Her and I are so close and bonded I think actually she does it now to wind me up as once she starts it she starts them all off.
I also cannot be awake 24 hours to divert her barking when she kicks off at 3 or 4am with a treat or some other method as it simply does not work. I have now resorted to shutting her in my bedroom when she stats as its nothing for her to continue to bark for half an hour. >:(
I am tbh getting sick to the back teeth of every 10 mins having to be on her case and quite frankly a spray with water is putting mildly what Id like to do with her. >:(
I would love someone like you to train her out of this extremely annoying habbit before I skin her alive :005:
Sounds like a habit that has been reinforced along the line, wish you were closer cazzie so i could see and hear it for my self then i would gladly help.
Does she bark in specific situations?
Have you found out what triggers it?
Do you think she is always tense and on edge.
Mark
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i dunno mark, but how about we suggest testing out a new idea of mine.... a shock collar in conjunction with a bucket of water...to be tested ONLY on CM and Mr Dog Borstal.
sounds mighty fine to me.... ph34r
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I could not possibly comment on such a suggestion Helen, but you know me well enough to know what I think of it ;) :lol:
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I have tried horns/grain in a jar/clicker training/treats/spray collar/ trainers/behaviourists to no avail, she is an absolute stinking little madam.
Have physical/environmental reasons for the barking been ruled out?? They played a huge role in Bonnee's behaviour ::)
Perhaps the food she eats is contributing, and a change of food may help? Even if she is fed a pure/additive free diet, some combinations of ingredients don't agree with some dogs, and a change may make a difference to her behaviourally.
Or maybe she would settle with a different level of exercise/stimulation during the day - some dogs need more directed activity rather than free running, others need undisturbed time ph34r
It may be exacerbated by her being part of a large group of dogs; if she is naturally nosy and into everything that is going on, then the activity around her from you and the other dogs may play a part in her behaviour :-\
A lot of things in Bonnees life changed when she came ot live with us; and over 6 weeks, we have noticed a huge difference in her behaviour with limited training intervention - but she is the exception, (and it is still early days) and I wouldn't expect to see significant differences in a learnt behaviour like barking in anything less than three or four months :shades:
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Mark,
I can't understand why you put my quote above your post. I just said I was looking forward to watching the program tonight after there had been so much discussion about it.
I clearly said that I cannot make any comment on the water issue, as I have not seen the programm, nor have I ever had a dog with this kind of behavioural problem (or any other).
I also clearly said, that I would turn to the forum, should I need any help in any future behaviour issues and not any tv programmes.
Quoting me as in introduction to your post seems to suggest that you misunderstood what I was intending to say. I didn't want to voice any opinion, I was simply saying, that I was looking forward to the program.
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Mark
Daisy is a barker by nature as she is a JRT how do you train out of a dog what has been bred into them :-\ Its like training a working cocker not to hunt and training a Lab not to pick up. I can divert Daisy for a few seconds but she is defiant self willed and stubborn and WILL bark when she wants, she will even scarper out of my reach so that she can bark in peace >:( She knows exactly what she is doing and is extremely clever with it, she will also wait until my back is turned and sneak off out of my sight so she can kick off. The only way I can get her to pay any attention to me is to pick her up and talk to her but im afraid I cannot pick her up 24/7.
She also is not a chewer so I cant give her a bone, she is very distructive with toys so for her own safety there is no toy I can give her to divert her thoughts as she would have it ripped apart and eaten in no time. I have tried horns/grain in a jar/clicker training/treats/spray collar/ trainers/behaviourists to no avail, she is an absolute stinking little madam. Her and I are so close and bonded I think actually she does it now to wind me up as once she starts it she starts them all off.
I also cannot be awake 24 hours to divert her barking when she kicks off at 3 or 4am with a treat or some other method as it simply does not work. I have now resorted to shutting her in my bedroom when she stats as its nothing for her to continue to bark for half an hour. >:(
I am tbh getting sick to the back teeth of every 10 mins having to be on her case and quite frankly a spray with water is putting mildly what Id like to do with her. >:(
I would love someone like you to train her out of this extremely annoying habbit before I skin her alive :005:
Sounds like a habit that has been reinforced along the line, wish you were closer cazzie so i could see and hear it for my self then i would gladly help.
Does she bark in specific situations?
Have you found out what triggers it?
Do you think she is always tense and on edge.
Mark
She can be fast asleep and a pin could drop and she will start, Im not sure if it is because she is in a pack situation as she always has to have everything first althought she may not keep it for long. She barks at noise and any noise she starts barking when she hears a car coming a mile off at the top of the farm road, she even spots their head lights and will continue to bark till the car is parked at the people are inside :-\ When the other dogs go out am and pm without her for their walk (as she wont go) she barks when they leave, settles and then barks when they come back :-\
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I have to say Daisy is a funny little dog :005: :luv: She doesn't bark because she is nervous or tense, if you met her the phrase 'scared of nothing' would spring to mind and she is very relaxed and happy as are all of Cazzie's dogs. She is very much a typical bold, cheeky JRT and man does she like to bark, whine, yowl and basically just 'talk'. Cazzie is not exaggerating when she describes it, I've been there!
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I have to say Daisy is a funny little dog :005: :luv: She doesn't bark because she is nervous or tense, if you met her the phrase 'scared of nothing' would spring to mind and she is very relaxed and happy as are all of Cazzie's dogs. She is very much a typical bold, cheeky JRT and man does she like to bark, whine, yowl and basically just 'talk'. Cazzie is not exaggerating when she describes it, I've been there!
Thanks Nic at least its not just me thats imagining things :005:
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I have watched Dog Borstal tonight.
For those who think Joe the cocker wasn't frightened by/after the water chucking incidents then you were watching a different programme to me.
I would say the prior to this watching him it did seem that he was suffering from separation anxiety. I can only say "seem" because you don't get to see enough to come to a concrete conclusion, but there were some indications of SA there.
Joe was tied up at a tree and barking. Owner walks up to dog in a somewhat "purposeful" way, which could have been interpreted as intimidating particularly as the owner was so not like that at all, she was quiet and unassuming. She chucks the water in his face, and I mean chuck. She then leaves and walks away. Joe barks she sets off again in the same way but this time Joe has stopped barking BEFORE she chucks the water in his face, so what does that teach him? If I bark I get wet and if I shut up I get wet. ::)
Yes the dog then settles down and lies quietly, so this has been taken that he wasn't stressed by this whole carry on. Then why when she returned to him and went to stroke his head did he duck his head in a way a hand shy dog does?? >:( >:( :'( If you are going to watch it again, watch it very carefully its a split second reaction but it is there. That is a HUGE indication as to effect this has had on him. You do not get the best out of your dog by destroying your relationship with them.
Dealing with his SA and using an ignoring strategy would have worked, but not within the time frame of filming a TV programme. It took time for Joe to get to be like this which he was allowed to do and therefore the owner should be prepared to put at least an equal amount of time in to retrain him.
From his VT at the beginning of the programme his guarding would have been the problem I'd have wanted to sort out. Come the test he did, eventually, give up a bag of treats without guarding or snapping so I would think they did address it yet it wasn't shown. Perhaps it wasn't good enough for TV. ::)
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I have to say Daisy is a funny little dog :005: :luv: She doesn't bark because she is nervous or tense, if you met her the phrase 'scared of nothing' would spring to mind and she is very relaxed and happy as are all of Cazzie's dogs. She is very much a typical bold, cheeky JRT and man does she like to bark, whine, yowl and basically just 'talk'. Cazzie is not exaggerating when she describes it, I've been there!
Sorry this is a bit off topic but what leads you to believe she is not nervous or tense?
It sounds to me as the barking is at sounds she is unsure about and she is warning to go away or alarming the rest of the pack of the possible danger.
this could have been reinforced intentionally over time.
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Thank goodness I've never watched 'Dog Borstal' - it sounds absolutely ghastly!! >:(
It's bad enough sitting through IMOTD - that sets my teeth on edge!! (as do the majority of reality programmes!! ;))
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i agree u shouldn't even us e a water pistol as its negative reinforcement and dogs learn quicker by positive reinforcement but if you have tried loads of other things to stop them barking an it doesnt work you might have to resort to desperate measures.
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i agree u shouldn't even us e a water pistol as its negative reinforcement and dogs learn quicker by positive reinforcement but if you have tried loads of other things to stop them barking an it doesnt work you might have to resort to desperate measures.
It just means you haven't found the right positive method that works - I hate to be beaten and would consider it a challenge ;)
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i agree u shouldn't even us e a water pistol as its negative reinforcement and dogs learn quicker by positive reinforcement but if you have tried loads of other things to stop them barking an it doesnt work you might have to resort to desperate measures.
It just means you haven't found the right positive method that works - I hate to be beaten and would consider it a challenge ;)
Looks like you should post Daisy to Rachel then Cazzie :shades: :005:
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i agree u shouldn't even us e a water pistol as its negative reinforcement and dogs learn quicker by positive reinforcement but if you have tried loads of other things to stop them barking an it doesnt work you might have to resort to desperate measures.
It just means you haven't found the right positive method that works - I hate to be beaten and would consider it a challenge ;)
Looks like you should post Daisy to Rachel then Cazzie :shades: :005:
Not yet - I've only had Bonnee 7 weeks ;)
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aaarrrgghh, didn't realise this was turning into a monster thread.
Just an update, the BBC have given what appears to be a stock response, "all facilities checked by a vet", blah, "trainers are very experienced", yawn, blah, etc. So it looks like I'll have to take it to the next step.
Just to answser a couple of responses here (and it's pleasing to see proper trainers feel the same way), my main issues are as follows:
1. The dog had a simple barking problem. There are plenty of positive techniques around that can be used to stop this behaviour and it seemed obvious to me (in the context of the rest of the program) that this particular "technique" was chosen to reinforce the trainer's "hard-man" attitude and because it made better television. Who wants to watch six weeks of distraction techniques when throwing a glass of water in a dog's face can be far more entertaining? Surely a real trainer would try less aggressive methods first?
2. Whether or not the technique was correct is irrelevant because loads of intellectually-challenged viewers are now going to think that they can cure all their dog's problems by drenching them in water. The program makers need to take a bit more responsibilty for what they show.
Simon
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i agree u shouldn't even us e a water pistol as its negative reinforcement and dogs learn quicker by positive reinforcement but if you have tried loads of other things to stop them barking an it doesnt work you might have to resort to desperate measures.
It just means you haven't found the right positive method that works - I hate to be beaten and would consider it a challenge ;)
Looks like you should post Daisy to Rachel then Cazzie :shades: :005:
No Id never get her back :005: