CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: yorkshirelass on September 17, 2007, 10:08:12 PM
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Hi there,
Just wondered if anyone could answer a couple of questions for me please?
A) Is Orange Roan dominant over Liver/Chocolate Roan?
B)In a hypotentical mating - If Dam is Orange Roan and Sire is Orange Roan, but on Dams side (both parents are orange roan) and on Sires side (one parent is Orange Roan and the other Chocolate/Liver Roan) (quick pause for breath - sorry), what are the expected colours of the pups?
From reading a few publications and books I wondered if I was correct in assuming that all but maybe one or two would be Orange Roan....
Any theories would be great.....
Many thanks
Rachel
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Are you thinking of mating your bitch?
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Hi Gilly,
I myself dont own a cocker at the moment. I have being doing some research on behalf of my friend who owns Sally that you can see in the small picture, so that she can make an informed decision about whether or not to breed her.
She is undecided at the moment about breeding her. She has however had Sally eye checked by our vet under the KC/BVA scheme, both Sally's parents were tested clear also under this scheme. We would only use a dog who had been eye tested clear and have come across several responsible stud dog owners that have had their dogs DNA tested, for FN and PRA.
Chris, who owns Sally has not made a decision yet, and she is also considering having her DNA tested too before making a final decicision. We are both only too aware of the many unwanted dogs that are brought into this world by unscrupulous people, and then subsequently sold on to less than suitable owners. If the decision was made to breed Sally, it would do only be if she was completely healthy and would not pass on hereditary defects to her pups. Also, she would vet extensively any prospective owners and offer to take back any pups should it not work out.
Sorry if I have gone on, I realise what a wonderful set of caring people are on this forum and did not want to give the wrong impression.
Hope this makes things clearer... just as a final point, the interest in the colours side is not for profit or gain, but both myself and Chris are very fond of both Orange and Liver and if the decision was made to breed her, then we would both be keeping a pup each from the litter and hoped to have a liver roan ourselves. The particular stud dog that we have been to see possibly will carry liver from his sire.
Thanks again.
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If I'm not mistaken, liver is dominant to orange, as it is "attached" to black which is the most dominant colour of all. It's hard to say though, because it's not just the first two generations that count, other things can come from behind so to speak. Also a dog can be one of the recessive colours but not produce it!
That said, I don't think it;s desirable to breed orange roan to orange roan for 3 generations, as the colours wash out and the pigment on the nose gets very light. Breeders of solids prefer to breed their reds and goldens to a black, liver or black and tan every other generation to keep the colour good. So for example you could breed red to red, but red puppies from the resulting litter need to be bred to a black.
Edit to add: You'd be better off to breed to a blue or liver roan who carries for orange (meaning has produced it). You may or may not get orange this time around, but you can try for it from one of the puppies. The colour quality will be much better, as well as the vigor of the pups :shades:
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If they don't know about colour genetics and are only 'considering' doing the DNA tests then why have they already started looking for studs. You should health test first, then if the results are good you can start to look for suitable studs. Would they know by looking at the pedigrees whether they suited each other or would they be doubling up on a particular problem?
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If I remember rightly Sally isn't 100% show or 100% working she is a mixture of the 2 strains...so why would your friend want to breed from her??? because she wouldn't produce 100% of one or the other?
No offence but there is NO point in breeding a litter unless you plan to breed quality sound puppies from BOTH parents which have been HEALTH tested. I suppose the question about Liver being dominant is relating to producing Liver puppies......Ka-ching ££££££ ::)
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As I understood it the goal was related to producing choc roan/orange roan puppies to keep! ph34r Perhaps a little more research could be suggested in this case... :D
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Liver is not dominant to orange nor is orange dominant to liver - they are both recessive colours.
If you mated two orange roans together, all the pups will be orange roan (unless both parents carry the "and white" gene in which case you could also get orange & whites). Two oranges mated together cannot ever produce liver puppies (no matter that there is liver in the background)
I personally wouldn't ever mate two recessives together (this is something more commercially minded breeders do in order to produce more of the currently popular colours). Like others have said, I also don't think anyone should be considering breeding until they have already done all the available tests, including DNA testing and colour should always be your lowest priority - health, type and temperament come way before colour.
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Hi there,
Thank you all for your replies.
No decision on mating Sally has yet been reached and I whole heartedly welcome all your comments.
We were not considering mating Sally until her third season, which will be when she is 2 1/2 she is 18 months at the moment in time.
The reason for me joining this helpful forum was so that I could find out more about the health and genetics side of Cocker Spaniels before considering mating her. We will now go back to our vets and arrange for Sally to be DNA tested, as I have now been told that this test is available in this country by the vet sending off a blood sample. Even if this is clear then this still would not necessarily mean that we would let her have a litter. In fact with the information that I have gained over the last few weeks, breeding her is now likely to not happen. However we will still have her DNA tested as It would be good to know the outcome so that we could act on anything health wise in the future, even if she is not bred from.
Thanks again for all your help.
Rachel
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Hi Rachel,
We were considering breeding from Bracken, but due to her mixed working/show lines and the advice I was given decided against it. The reason for this was because I wasn't happy about finding I had a puppy with mixed parenting (as such) and know I would have had to explain this to every potential owner, and I imagine this would put a lot of people off.
I'm not saying we will never breed in the future as this is something we would both very much like to do at some point, but when we do I want to breed puppies that are a good representative of the breed and ones I could be proud to show. This will mean a very careful choosing of a future puppy, researching lines, showing her and getting all possible health tests done.
One of our reasons for considering breeding was our love of animals and wanting to be more involved with them. What we have decided to do instead is start fostering rescue dogs, so who knows we may only ever have rescues from now.... as I write this we are patiently (well nearly patiently) waiting to find out what doggie is going to be coming our way....
Em
Em x
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Hi Emily,
Thanks for your reply.
I have to say myself, that is one of the great things about this site, as it really opens your eyes to things.
I have advised Chris, who owns Sally, against letting her have a litter, as like Gilly also said earlier, they will never be one thing or another.... i.e. never 100% show or 100% working.
Chris is still going to go ahead and have her DNA tested as she wants to make sure that she is unlikely to develop health issues in future. I have told her that it is probably in her best interest to have Sally neutrered too after her next season.
I am still hankering after a Cocker myself, however with what I have learnt recently will be doing quite a bit more research over the next few months and look for a reputable breeder who breeds only 100% show cocker and does all the relevant health checks.
Thanks again.
PS - Good luck with the fostering - It must be extremely rewarding :0)
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I agree totally, this site was really helpful in helping us to make our decision and we would not have known about fostering otherwise.
Might be worth you posting a thread in the looking for puppy section, with your location etc. There are lots of people out there who do carry out the health checks and there may be someone who can point you in the direction of some reputable breeders who have dogs with the qualities you are looking for.
Liver roans are lovely, but from what I have seen seem to be being bred now for popularity and to meet commercial demand...
We had Bracken eye checked and when (if ever ::) ) we are a bit more flush would like to get her Optigen tested out of curiosity. We are going to get her spayed later this year once all of her season malarky is over...
Em x
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A bitch can also pass the KC/BVA eye exam because she does not exhibit any of the symptoms but without the PRA Optigen test you cannot tell if she is actually a carrier for the disease or not
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Hi eveyone,
Thanks for all your help and advice.
I am happy to say that Chris has now decided not to breed from Sally, and she went into the vets last week to be spayed.
it has been a real eye opener reading the forums on here surrounding breeding and the genetic tests available.
I have decided not to get a cocker now and have put my name down for a litter of border collies that are due in the next two weeks. Both mum and dad have been dna tested for CEA, CL and TNS and both parents have excellent hip scores. We are hoping to have a dog puppy and are hoping to show him.
We have a 5 year old working sheepdog and he has been a love, we could never show him due to not being KC reg, we do agility and have just started working trials training.
Many thanks again for all your help.
regards
Rachel
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Hi rachel..what a sensible friend..! :D Good luck with the new puppy too! Jo
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That's great news, well done. :D
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Hope you won't stop posting, i'm sure your collie can be an honoury cocker. ;) :005:
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Perhaps you could get your friend Chris to register and join in? I am sure she will get a warm welcome :D. Sally is gorgeous! :luv:
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Thanks for your lovely replies :D
I have told Chris about COL, she only has limited access to the net at work - and at my house..... but she will try and get registered.
We are really looking forward to our new addition :luv: I will post a picture of him when I can on the gallery part in the non cockers section.
Thanks again
bye for now
Rachel
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as I understand it, chocolate and orange works the same in cockers as in BC's in that a dog can be both chocolate and orange at the same time.
Orange/Gold/Lemon...whatever you want to call it, is the recessive extension gene 'ee' which results in a complete loss of eumelanin pigmentation in the hair follicles which means the dogs true colour cannot be expressed in the coat. Therefore a dog can be orange with black pigment or orange with chocolate/liver pigment. Genetically it will also be black or chocolate but unable to express it's true colour because of the 'ee' gene making it appear orange/gold/lemon.
Good luck with the BC Rachel, another very sensible choice lol ;)
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Cheers for that info Bryning - wow you certainly know your genetics !
Just been having a browse on your website, what beautiful BC's and Cockers that you have. :luv:
We are really looking forward to getting back into showing again, we are also hoping to do working trials traiing too with the little one, as we are currently doing this with our Bill.... Its been a while since I have shown our Weimaraner she is now nearly 12 and its a completely different way to show with BC's .... i.e. in Weimaraners you stack them... any tips would be gratefully appreciated.... i have already put feelers out for some ringcraft classes....
Bye for now
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It's best if you start a new thread on the Other Breeds board if you want tips on showing BCs, Rachel
Thanks :D
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Have replied privately ;)