CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: jakesmum on October 26, 2007, 11:32:40 AM
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Hi all,
I'm new to cockers (wee Jakey is my first) and so a bit ignorant as to how you know what 'colour' your cocker is.
For example, Jake is registered as a red roan. When I got him he was very pale (really golden) and although he's getting darker now I'd say he was more orange than red. So how do you know?
I'm also just interested to know in the differences - ie. between black & white and blue roan etc etc.
Can anyone point me in the right direction to a resource which explains it all?
Thanks
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This article should help...
http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/colours.htm
Cockers can be registered with the KC as any exotic or daft colour description that the breeder chooses ( apricot, champagne etc) - but there are a list of traditional colours that are generally accepted as covering the full range produced in Cockers. 'Red roan' wouldn't be on that list in the UK, it's likely that Jake is an Orange Roan ( or to confuse things further - a Lemon Roan if he's a Working Cocker). :D
Edited to add - Jake looks like a solid gold... the white patches will be the result of a solid to particolour mating... either his parents or further back in his line.
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Black and white to the left, blueroan to the right .
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/kennelprettyflowers/terkkuja.jpg)
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Thanks Colin - I'm sure you're right, although I wonder if he could be a red & white particolour? I've looked at some pictures of orange roans and he seems to be quite a bit darker than them. Also he has a fair bit of white on him - chest, top of head, end of tail and his paws and nose are red/white dappled. This is very like his mother.
Also, how then would I tell the difference between an orange roan and a red & white?
It's all very interesting!
I'll try to charge my camera battery over the weekend and take some more pics as I realise it's quite difficult to tell from this small pic. Also, the pic on my profile was taken when he was just 10 weeks. Now, at 18 weeks, he's darkened quite a lot.
Thanks for the help.
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Also, how then would I tell the difference between an orange roan and a red & white?
In show lines the traditional terms would be Orange Roan and Orange & White, 'red' wouldn't be used. The difference is that the colours form separate blocks on an Orange & White ( like my Stevie), whereas on an Orange Roan the colours would be more intermingled, a kind of marbling efect ( see the photos Katina posted above re B&W and Blue Roan). Regardless of the depth of orange they'd still be described as 'Oranges' rather than red, except in working lines where they use the word 'lemon' instead of 'orange'. ( Still with me ? Confusing isn't it ? :lol: ) The orange patches on Stevie's back are more red than orange (similar to the red seen in a solid red) - but she'd still be classed as an Orange & White.
Looking at your avatar I thought Jake was an orange roan at first but looking back at some earlier photos you posted I'd say he was a 'mismarked' gold or red. 'Mismark' may sound like an unkind description but it's one used for solid dogs ( red, gold, black, liver) when they have more than the usual white in their coat. This is normally from a mating between a solid colour and a particolour ( roans, the 'and whites' etc). Generally speaking solids and particolours are not bred together these days in show lines, however they are in working lines (working dogs tend to be bred for their working ability, so colour is not generally a priority when choosing a mate).
Re red or gold. That's one thing that always confuses me. As I understand it there are genetic reasons for the two different colours, rather than just depth of shade - but it's not always easy to know which is which. My Jimmy had a really dark red coat ( like Jake it was gold as a pup and it got darker as he got older) - although it's gone back to looking gold since he's been neutered. I tend to describe him as gold, as that's what he looks like these days - I'm unsure of which term he is genetically speaking though. Yep, it's all very complicated... I hope I've made some sense. :lol:
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That's brilliant - thanks very much for your help - it's making a bit more sense. And I'd agree from what you're saying that he's probably not a roan as the dappling is really on his nose.
Jake's line is mostly show, although mum is half working cocker.
It is all very interesting, but in the grand scheme I don't mind what he is as he's a pet and I wouldn't want to show him (not that I could with mixed working & show, I know)....he's the apple of my eye and that's all that matters!
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I have a question about this kind of thing too.
When I went to see my pup, I was given his Ped to look at and I'm sure they had him down as "Black and White", where he is a "Blue Roan". I go to pick him up on Monday and so all the paperwork will be ready, so I'll know for sure then. However, if it is the case, can I get this changed in his KC records? If so Do I have to go though the breeder? Or can I contact the KC myself and do it? Anyone know?
Thanks,
-Alex
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Yes you can get your pup's colour changed on his registration certificate but the breeder has to do it & I'm pretty sure there's a charge for altering the certificate. Your breeder will need to contact the KC for confirmation.
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Gosh its all so difficuly with colours isnt it :005: Im glad mine is just black :005: Or is she black and white Mmmmm :-\ :005:
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Okay, thanks Jane S. I'll see what happens.
Haha Cazzie. Yes I'd say Sweepe is black "with" white! :005: