CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Coco on November 27, 2007, 03:08:11 PM
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>:D >:D
OH took Wherry to the vets this morning as she is in season and her bits are VERY swollen. The blurry vet advised him to breed her - NOW, like the next few days!!!!!. >:D >:D
I get a call this morning from him telling me this to which I tried calmly to put him straight. He said, 'How hard can it be to find a dog for her? There are plenty about' >:D >:D >:D >:D Arrggghhhhh!!!!
Well, it descended into quite a row. I tried the nice approach and said 'well, you won't be able to sell the pups if you don't do it properly' but he just said - 'Oh, I don't think I'll have any problem there'
This is after I bit my tongue at Sunday dinner with his parents telling him he should breed her and his Dad saying 'You could have 2 or 3 litters out of her'
I've sat there in the past and given my views and I may as well be taking to a wall, they don't listen, like litterally, don't pay attention like I'm some stupid hippie.
I know it's a bit pot kettle as before I knew anything about breeding I'd probably have been just as bad (though I always knew you couldn't just find any old stud) but now I know better but as 'the vet' has told him to do it he thinks it's OK.
It looks like I'm the only one who knows how terrible an idea this is and I can't believe he is thinking about doing this to my baby though essentially she is his and there is little I can do about it. I want to kidnap her!! :'( :'( Hopefully, since we are going away it won't happen but I can totally see his parents who are baby sitting and he sorting it all out. Apparently 'MIL's cousin has a really nice Cocker" :'( >:D :'( >:D :'(
What can I do??????????
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Am I right in remembering she has an under bite or something like that? Maybe go down the route of this being very likely in pups which could make it more difficult to fid them homes..
You're in a really tricky situation, one thing to bring up is who will spend the time looking after Wherry and pups.... especially if they need to be hand fed etc, does your OH have the time to do this?
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God, what a situation to be in! Can't you get him to read some online stuff about the perils of breeding? You're not in an easy situation, Doll and I'd be looking at the bg picture if I were you. ;)
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Yep - you are right! And I though we'd agreed but the vet seems to think it's ok so now he has done an about turn >:D
I know he would expect me to take care of the pups, he absolutly does not have the time but then he could send her to MIL's or a Breeder he knows of that takes the mum and pups untill weaned.
But if I say I want no involvment what so ever and he (I should say they as I think this is very In-law led) goes ahead then i'm totally away from it and God knows what they will do, well, I know, it'll be this Cousin's Cocker.
My only hope is that he will speak to a vet friend who has a Boy Cocker (that he thinks will be ideal >:D >:D ) and she will set him straight but it seems that in certain circles it's acceptable.
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I'd be looking at the bg picture if I were you. ;)
?? You mean him? He is just naive and uninformed and because the Blurry stupid vet has said it's ok he believes the 'expert' + his parents are saying it's ok. I'm not so much angry at him except in terms of he not researching it but I can see why he would take a vet's opinion over mine. As I say, i'm the only one saying there is anything wrong with it. He is quite easily lead by the greater margin. :-\
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ph34r I'd kidnap her... at least until she's out of season. ph34r
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Even if he mates her there is a chance it might not result in pups...
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Flippin eck! Can you report the blooming vet??? My vet is really advocating neuturing all dogs, thought all vets would have this opinion!
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Just remembered that a vet i saw once told me i should breed Lucy. :o 'Cause she doesn't have a heart murmer and they're so common in the breed.
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Has she been eye screened/Optigen tested and hipscored? Maybe you could point out that he could be responsible for breeding puppies that are destined to go blind at a young age if he choses to do this without any consideration :-\
I would be so angry that I would probably leave, with Wherry, until her season was over....and deal with the consequences later ph34r Ignorance is no excuse - you have explained the risks and rather than listen to you and do any research or himself, he has obviously decided that he knows best ::)
As for the V.E.T - I would write a strongly worded letter to the RCVS explaining how irresponsible you consider one of their members to be by advising that she can be bred from with no idea of her health status - never mind the fact that he obviously didn't explain the risks involved in mating (infection) and whelping >:(
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Can you show him the responsible breeding sticky thread on here? Show him the Just One Litter site and how many litters there are advertised on UK Gundogs and in the Shooting Times. Why does he want to breed her? If he wants another Wherry go back to her breeder for another pup. If it's for money then he needs a serious kick up the @rse. Point out all the things that could potentially go wrong and the onus which is on a responsible breeder to research breeding, genetics and bloodlines properly to find the right stud AND to take back puppies that they have bred at ANY stage in their lives. TBH I'd probably just go mad and tell him not to be such an irresponsible idiot and leave breeding to people who do it properly... not sure how well that would go down though!
I'd be having words with this vet about his irresponsible attitude as well >:( Is he advising all his clients to breed their dogs??
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I agree with cob-web - kidnap her and hide her, cos from your post it doesn't sound as if you talking reason to him will make any difference. especially as you'd be the one to look after them.
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Has she been eye screened/Optigen tested and hipscored? Maybe you could point out that he could be responsible for breeding puppies that are destined to go blind at a young age if he choses to do this without any consideration :-\
Turn it round on him.... act dead keen and ask him for the money to have all the health check/tests done.... would that change his mind?? :huh:
(oh and tell him you will need a bit more set aside, in case it is a cesarean birth, and for the pups vaccinations and insurance etc)
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Agree, agree, agree with everything said so far.
Is there the equivalent of a "morning after" pill that can be given to a bitch (and if so, over what time frame after the mating) to prevent pregnancy/terminate a pregnancy?
You say that Wherry is "his" - why? Did he own her before you met?
I don't want to sound like a Relate relationship counsellor, but it seems as though there's a really serious issue here about disrespect, and him completely ignoring you and giving credence to his parents and the vet. The issue is that he won't respect your views on something important to both of you and is not willing to compromise. I'd try tackling him on that basis - that you've read a lot on here, and elsewhere - things that have been written by the kinds of breeders who invest in expensive gene testing and other tests before deciding whether their dog is healthy enough to breed from - and you've got a better understanding than the vet on this. Stand up for yourself. But also tell him it's an issue of disrespect - like you insisting you have the right to demand to have a baby, disregarding any worries or concerns he might have.
If all else fails - yep, I'd take her away till out of season. I'd also go to see the vet face to face and see what was really said. He (your OH) might be bull**it*** about what was said because his dad has reignited the idea of a few thousand pounds of easy money per litter, two or three times over.
And if you do head this off at the pass this time: book her in for spaying at a different vets' practice in three months' time. See how he likes THAT bit of disrespect.
TBH: I'm a pretty placid person, but if my husband did this (and I don't mean to imply that this is what you should do), I'm not joking - it would be a divorcing matter because I'd feel as if I'd been held in such contempt.
Grrrrrrrr
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How old is Wherry?
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I recon they're basing their opinion of breeding Wherry on seeing the price of pups in free ads, they may be asking £400 each but if you compare it to a 9-5 job over 9 weeks you'd make £5 minimum in a 9-5 job whereas a litter is a 7-10 job and would work out about £3 an hour even if she had a big litter, would he work from 7am to 10 pm for 7 days a week with no breaks for £3 and hour :-\.
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The money is not an issue, cost nor profit. If Wherry did ever have pups the majority would be going to family and friends for no money/donation. Also all of our vets bills are covered by the farm. There are horses, sheep, about 25 pet dogs and the pack hounds in the winter so it'd be kinda a drop in the ocean and not cost's that anyone would personally feel.
TBH I'd probably just go mad and tell him not to be such an irresponsible idiot and leave breeding to people who do it properly... not sure how well that would go down though!
I'd be having words with this vet about his irresponsible attitude as well >:( Is he advising all his clients to breed their dogs??
This is what i've done, I basically got angry and upset and him being such a blurry, idiot moron (and a bit more besides) and that he could do something so blindly with such potential consequnces for both Wherry and the pups.
I don't know what the vet is thinking - he said breed her now then get her spayed :huh: >:D
I said to him if he really wanted to breed (for God knows what reason) to get another pup and do it all properly. I think it's becuase his Dad and Cousin have really encouraged him as they want one of Wherry' pups, again thoug, I said that they aren't going to be another Wherry and the Stud with have a big part to play etc.
I explained the health testing (to the degree I know about it) and her jaw issuse and the potential health implications for Wherry etc etc. Perhaps is was being too 'shouty' and not factual enough. I may call up a few other vet friends and try to get them to have a word if he really insists.
If he was prepard to do it all properly with testing etc I'd be less angry but the is being the most irresponsibe of the irresponsible.
I want to slip her a doggy 'pill'. I wouldn't have her put through a termination.
TBH, he is disrespecting me but at the same time I can see why he would believe the vet. Also, the hold his family has is one of those things that has to be lived with :-\
Wherry isn't even two - the vet has advise dit as her seasons are quite spaced apart apparantly
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Who's dog is she, your or his?
If she's yours, then just say no!
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Is there the equivalent of a "morning after" pill that can be given to a bitch (and if so, over what time frame after the mating) to prevent pregnancy/terminate a pregnancy?
Yes there is - and it's within 36 hours (I had to find out just incase when I couldn't get Jock into kennels when Fern was in season - ThankdoG never needed it as we were around when she started and kept them 100% apart till the kennels were free :D )
Who's dog is she, your or his?
That's the trouble - Wherry is actually classes as his
doG what a night mare for you - good luck
and do something about that Bl@@dy V.E.T. - strong worded letter on responsible breeding is the least you should do imo
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God I so know where you are coming from a the moment...men!!!!...it is like talking to a brick wall and even though you have sat endlessley at the computer and read so much they still think they know better, don't they......and if your OH is anything like mine, they say they haven't got time to sit at the computer or read something you print off.....does make my blood boil >:D >:D...as well, you may be in a town/village with other 'dog' owners who breed at the drop of a hat as this is 'how it has always been done' and what else oh 'you read to much into it...it will be fine' grrrr
It is hard to give advice on this but I think this rests on how you deal with your OH....I found that with mine over the vacinatting issue, once I had calmed down, i gently sugguested for him to phone someone I knew he looked up to (in this case his uncle) knowing full well that he put him straight.
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Is your OH going to be willing to take back a pup if circumstances change a few months or a few years down the line or will he expect a rescue to pick up the pieces? Circumstances in the most carefully chosen home can change meaning a breeder can be asked to take back one of their pups at any time. Homing with other family members doesn't prevent this happening - I'm sure I remember a COL member (Terry?) having to take back a pup that had gone to someone in the family but came back because they couldn't cope. We have just taken back a youngster we bred now - I could have done without the arrival of a lively adolescent badly in need of learning some manners but she's our responsibility, nobody else's. No-one should even think about breeding a litter unless they are willing to offer life time back-up for their puppies, whether a one-off litter or not. Sorry, I'll get off the soap box now :005:
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Sorry, I'll get off the soap box now :005:
No please carry on. I want as many points I can use to deter him.
I have to say though, that this one is one that is not an issue. There would always be a home no matter what age for a pup to be returned to for any reason.
The Money, the open home and the possibility of not finding good homes for all of the litter would be the one thing I can say that would be treated properly. No pup would go from him to any home that didn't seem 110%, they would always be rather kept, even if that meant keeping half the litter and could always be returned, the money would be of no concern either.
If he turned round and said he wanted to breed from her next season after and pending good results of all health tests, finding a suitable stud etc I could cope, I'd not be happy and disagree but I could cope. It's the blind naivety, being so ill prepared, having done no research, urgency, the stud issue etc etc
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Well how about the fact you could lose your girl during labour? Not only would you lose a wonderful dog, but then have to hand rear a litter of puppies, ie 2 hourly feeding night & day for at least 3 weeks.
What about if something goes wrong & your girl aborts 7 live puppies 2 weeks early, the puppies fade, one by one & your girl is beside herself with grief (has happened to me).
How about if you have puppies born with defects, will you be able to have them destroyed or will you be prepared to keep them. . . . ?
I know that sometimes it must sound like us breeders are "holier than thou" but those of us that have chosen to breed have our fair share of heartache, having puppies is not all puppy breath & cuteness.
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What about if something goes wrong & your girl aborts 7 live puppies 2 weeks early, the puppies fade, one by one & your girl is beside herself with grief (has happened to me).
That must have been heartbreaking :'( :'( :'(
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What will you do if he does breed? How will you feel? Will your relationship change?
This sounds like one of those issues that you will never agree on - so trying to convince him to change his opinion may be futile. Hopefully though, your relationship is strong enough for you both to compromise (for instance, breeding next season , after tests etc). If he won't listen to your feelings, then tbh, his decision to breed Wherry may be the least of your problems :-\
Not everyone agrees that BYB is irresponsible, no matter how many "facts" they are given - several former members of COL have shown that ph34r IMHO, the issue here is less about his opinion, and more about his willingness to compromise with you over an issue you are opposed on :-\
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I quite agree with cob web. If he loves you, he should respect your wishes. I'm not sure if you said that you lived together, and if you did, then the dog is for both of you.
Forgive me if I am wrong. but you need to talk to him, not just about the in's and out't about breeding, but tell him you don't want your baby to go through this just yet. :luv:
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What is his reason for breeding from Wherry if not for money or to have a wherry jr?? Just cos the vet said so? Men really are the lesser sex sometimes!!! ;)
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If he turned round and said he wanted to breed from her next season after and pending good results of all health tests, finding a suitable stud etc I could cope, I'd not be happy and disagree but I could cope. It's the blind naivety, being so ill prepared, having done no research, urgency, the stud issue etc etc
There's your compromise isn't it for you both. Not perfect, but it could buy you some more time and keeps everybody happy in the meantime :-\
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I think you are right Rachel, right now i'm not so much angry at him as he is a product of that mentatality fenn2006 mentioned where it is the norm to breed from your dog. Also, touch wood in all reports no-one has had any particularly bad experiences but yes Kim, these are the issues that worry me first and foremost.
If he can't see my point nor respect it after a calm discussion then it's a whole other issue entirely.
I'll let you know after we have discussed it thououghly.
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If he turned round and said he wanted to breed from her next season after and pending good results of all health tests, finding a suitable stud etc I could cope, I'd not be happy and disagree but I could cope. It's the blind naivety, being so ill prepared, having done no research, urgency, the stud issue etc etc
There's your compromise isn't it for you both. Not perfect, but it could buy you some more time and keeps everybody happy in the meantime :-\
I agree that's your best option if he's adamant on breeding :-\
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If he turned round and said he wanted to breed from her next season after and pending good results of all health tests, finding a suitable stud etc I could cope, I'd not be happy and disagree but I could cope. It's the blind naivety, being so ill prepared, having done no research, urgency, the stud issue etc etc
There's your compromise isn't it for you both. Not perfect, but it could buy you some more time and keeps everybody happy in the meantime :-\
I agree that's your best option if he's adamant on breeding :-\
But it seems such a shame as he wants to do it for the sake of it really
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the breed them once then spay is an old fashioned view and your vet really should be reported the RVS are doing a drive to try and stop irresponsible breeding so really your vet should never have told your OH to breed at all. Personally I'd be having a chat with the vet >:(
Hope you get through to hubby, there really are an awful lot of unsold dogs around at the moment peoples pockets are a little lighter than they were before. Some really good breeders are having to keep hold of dogs alot older than they should be and with xmas coming up there will be the usual round of dogs being dumped on rescue... don't envy you being in that situation at all, good luck hope you can sort it all out. just in case there is a morning after pill for dogs might be worth an investment.
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This is the reason Id NEVER get married again and let any man dictate to me what to do, Id be up and off with my dog im afraid, I could not reason with someone as miss informed >:( Hope you get it sorted for Wherry's sake :'(
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This is the reason Id NEVER get married again and let any man dictate to me what to do, Id be up and off with my dog im afraid, I could not reason with someone as miss informed >:( Hope you get it sorted for Wherry's sake :'(
Although I have strong beliefs about BYB, I am prepared to accept that other people may have just as strong, opposing views, and I am sure they are just as convinced that they are right, and that I am misinformed in my opinion ;)
When you love someone, you want to make them happy, so there is no "dictation" ;)
My OH refused to consider the possibility of another dog for 5 years after Sheba died. I was desperate for another dog, but he made it clear that by nagging and pressuring him, I was making him unhappy - so I left him alone; I love him, and don't want to make him unhappy, and so decided to *leave it* (as he asked) ;)
Similarly, when I wanted a second dog; he refused. Again, he told me not to nag and badger him as it would stress him and make him unhappy; and I love him, and didn't want to make him unhappy, so I left it alone ;) when the time was right - he told me he was ready :D
If we (as a couple) have such opposing views about something so important, we have been able to compromise - we have managed it on all the big issues so far (religion, family & politics).
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When you love someone, you want to make them happy, so there is no "dictation" ;)
My OH refused to consider the possibility of another dog for 5 years after Sheba died. I was desperate for another dog, but he made it clear that by nagging and pressuring him, I was making him unhappy - so I left him alone; I love him, and don't want to make him unhappy, and so decided to *leave it* (as he asked) ;)
Similarly, when I wanted a second dog; he refused. Again, he told me not to nag and badger him as it would stress him and make him unhappy; and I love him, and didn't want to make him unhappy, so I left it alone ;) when the time was right - he told me he was ready :D
If we (as a couple) have such opposing views about something so important, we have been able to compromise - we have managed it on all the big issues so far (religion, family & politics).
But I guess we all have differing views on what's an acceptable compromise. If I wanted a dog and OH didn't, i don't think I could just leave it and hope he'd come round to the idea, we'd have to compromise and find a suitable solution so we both get a bit of what we want.Yes I love him, but he loves me too.
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But I guess we all have differing views on what's an acceptable compromise. If I wanted a dog and OH didn't, i don't think I could just leave it and hope he'd come round to the idea, we'd have to compromise and find a suitable solution so we both get a bit of what we want.Yes I love him, but he loves me too.
I'd be more like this as well. It's all very well someone asking you not to make them unhappy by going on at them but if it's something you really and truly are desperate for then surely you're going to be unhappy without it. To me that's not a compromise if one person is getting it all their own way and the other is making all the concessions. There's also no guarantee that they will change their mind so then what do you do - wait around for 10 years on the off chance? I couldn't do that, I'd end up resenting the other person... but that's just the way I see it, maybe I'm too selfish :005: but whatever works for other folk is great as long as they're happy.
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Well, we sat down and talked about it and I think I got through to him (I hope it doesn't change as soon as he speaks to his parents) I explained all of my concerns, mostly Wherry's health, health of pups, rescue situations, future implications, reasons to and not to breed, financial issues, time issues, Wherry and pups' health again.
He says his reasons for breeding are because everyone wants one ::) I mentioned he could be putting Wherry's health at stake etc but he is, dare I say it, a people pleaser and just loves also that people covert and are envious of his dog.
Basically we reached the point that I have convinced him to think long and hard about it and if he still wants to go ahead it is on the following conditions;
She would have all of the health tests and if they proved anything but perfect he has agreed it would definitly go no further.
Then it comes down to thing I've asked from him to try to A. put him off B. show him how hard work and serious it should be and C. show his commitment, not a way to go along with the crowd
I would like to see a list of people who definitely would want a pup (I know this is still no guarantee but maybe when he really asks he will find for himself how non-committal people are) I'd like ideally for people to give him a deposit. Anyone who takes a pup, family or otherwise, if he does not wish to charge them they pay the going rate as a donation to rescue (again to try to ensure in someway people don't take so lightly)
I also said I'd like if He puts some serious time and effort into training her further, i.e. to prove her ability and therefore why she should be bread from as an example of the breed (I know this may be a bit stupid but again, I want it to be hard work for him if he is serious about this)
And then, under no circumstances would any of the pups end up on any free-ad or newspaper type places, that any he can't home he keeps.
I don't really know what more I can do. :-\
I am also very aware that not long ago I'd probably have had shared a lot of his views :-\ Only I have taken the time to learn about it and make an informed opinion which at the least, even if his opinion remains the same, he should do also.
BTW, can anyone give me the link to that lab with hip diysplasier in rescue please?
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Well done for trying :D
I am also very aware that not long ago I'd probably have had shared a lot of his views :-\ Only I have taken the time to learn about it and make an informed opinion which at the least, even if his opinion remains the same, he should do also.
Did you tell him this? It may help him understand why you feel so strongly about it ;)
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He says his reasons for breeding are because everyone wants one ::)
I hear this all the time where I live, and tonight Four Paws has several litters of pups we need to find room in foster for and we're not alone ::)
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That's really good Vicky, well done! I hope he takes everything you've said on board and makes sure that his family know as well in case they try anything while you're on holiday. This is Tamba's page...
http://www.freewebs.com/manytearsrescue/tamba.htm
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Blimey! Thank goodness you've managed to halt any hurried proceedings! :o
Well done you, Sounds like a very sensible, well though through and fair plan you've decided on :blink:
Definitely buy him 'the book of the bitch' by Jim Evans for Christmas and make him read it from cover to cover. This book is extremely informative and really tells it how it is. There's a whole chapter describing all the possible problems etc... that could crop up and how to deal with them. With every problem it describes, get him to ask himself is it worth the risk of it/and has he done everything to reduce the risk it, for the sake of breeding Wherry.
Its one hell of a responsibility, and the whelping is absolutely terrifying!, (even when you've done everything in your power to ensure a healthy pregnancy, safe delivery and genetically strong and vigorous puppies) The surges of guilt that wash over you when your gorgeous little girl looks at you in confusion when she starts having contractions and doesn't quite know what's to come, it's awful.
Breeding is a lot of hard work and can be very emotionally draining even when everything goes to plan, I can't imagine what it must be like when something goes wrong :'(
However, if done properly and for the right reasons then breeding a litter is incredibly rewarding, as well as tiring, stressful etc... ::)
You owe it to Wherry's health, and the health of her possible future puppies, to do the research thoroughly and get the health tests done as a bare minimum. :blink:
Well done you, you are doing exactly the right thing with making your OH sit down and think it through properly, rather than rushing into anything :D
By the way, if your friends and family want 'clones' of Wherry :-* then the way they'll most likely get a very similar dog is not from any puppies that Wherry may have, but from repeat breedings between Wherry's dam and sire.
Best wishes,
Mary x
PS: Wherry is a gorgeous girlie :-*
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By the way, if your friends and family want 'clones' of Wherry :-* then the way they'll most likely get a very similar dog is not from any puppies that Wherry may have, but from repeat breedings between Wherry's dam and sire.
This is what my thoughts are ;)
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I have said this, I've also said that the pups may turn out nothing like her and what then and how the sire would affect a litter.
I think i've put a halt to the proceedings for now.
I'm still concerned about it as a whole, with particular regard to her jaw.
I will see how it goes from here. I'm even scared of her being knocked out to have her hips tested!!
I feel that if he has listened to me so far, hopefully with a bit of 'drip, drip' information I can get him to listen further though he does seem quite intent :-\
Now to buy 'the book of the bitch'
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I must be a really selfish cow, whenever i have wanted a pet it has been my decision and nothing to do with my OH I do all the work I pay all the bills for them and he is not expected to take care of them or have any involvement beyond the odd walk and cuddle. Its never been a problem and I'm afraid the dogs and my other pets have always come first. OH are easily replacable pets are my responsibility... ph34r
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I guess for Coco as it's his dog it makes it a bit harder for her to make a unilateral decision. Good luck with gently persuading him,
Em x
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Why is Wherry 'his' dog?
have I missed something along the way?
is she registered in his name or did he pay for her?
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Basically yes she is his.