CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: *Lucy* on February 11, 2008, 11:09:40 PM
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My friend had a litter of working cockers born about 8 weeks ago - first one was breach and died, the other 4 seemed to be fine.
After a day another died, then 2 days later another! (suspected liver failure) :'(
The 2 left (1 girl, 1 boy) seemed to be doing really well and my friend had decided to keep the liver and white (girl) and was letting his friend keep the black boy.
Anyway, he took the pups to the vets for their first injections and health check today. The vet examined the boy and confirmed that he was a healthy pup, fit to be re homed later this week!
But when the vet examined Bracken (friends pup) he said he was so surprised the pup had lived 8 weeks, when my friend asked why the vet told him that Bracken didnt have an anus :o and that she would have to be put down :'( Bracken was put asleep this afternoon :'(
The vet said that about 1 in 100 matings result in these kind of abnormalities and I was just wondering if there was any truth in this??
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Poor baby :'(
When I worked in the emergency pet clinic years ago, we euthanized a couple of puppies (unrelated, different breeds) who were born with no anus, but they were much younger. I too am amazed that Bracken lived so long
I have no idea about 1 in 100, I suspect it may be a bit less, but yes, congenital defects do happen :-\
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poor little mite :'(
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that's enough to put me off breeding for life....sleep tight little ones :'( :'(
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Sorry Lucy I dont mean to sound like I'm having a go at anyone(and certainly not at you ;)), but presumably the pup couldn't poop then? Did no one actually notice that? :-\
that's enough to put me off breeding for life....sleep tight little ones :'( :'(
ditto
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Sorry Lucy I dont mean to sound like I'm having a go at anyone(and certainly not at you ;)), but presumably the pup couldn't poop then? Did no one actually notice that? :-\
That was my first thought too :huh: Run free little pups :'(
that's enough to put me off breeding for life....sleep tight little ones :'( :'(
Me too :-\
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Oh poor little babies :'(
Run free little ones :luv:
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Sorry Lucy I dont mean to sound like I'm having a go at anyone(and certainly not at you ;)), but presumably the pup couldn't poop then? Did no one actually notice that? :-\
Thats exactly what I thought and havent said anything to my friend because he is still very upset!
I guess because they are outside in kennels and there was another pup he just assumed it was pooing as normal as I guess any of us would do - I know it wouldnt of even occured to me!
that's enough to put me off breeding for life
Deffinitely - it must be heart breaking :'(
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I have heard of puppies born without anuses too but they're usually spotted very quickly by the breeder when they check over the pups after being born. I'm amazed this poor pup survived for 8 weeks - that must be some kind of a record :o I'm sure your friend is very upset (anyone would be) and would guess this must be their first litter & they weren't getting any guidance from an experienced breeder which is a shame :( Sadly congenital abnormalities do occur (as they do in human babies) but it can only be guesswork as to how often they happen since statistics on puppy defects like this aren't collated anywhere.
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oh how terrible, poor little souls - that must have been painful for little Bracken?
definitely opens your eyes to breeding...and 1 in a 100 is not a lot at all :huh:
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would guess this must be their first litter & they weren't getting any guidance from an experienced breeder which is a shame :(
Its actually their second and last litter with Fern, the Mum! They kept Teal from the last litter (a gorgeous black girl)
I didnt know my friend when they had the other litter but know that all the puppies were fine.
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That's so so sad :'(
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Poor pup, I'm also amazed that they didn't notice it though and that she survived so long. It can also happen in human babies, there's an operation which can be done to fix it but it's not usually an option in a tiny puppy.
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its a pity really that no one is looking at this sort of thing as a study in genetics. The healthgene people in america might be willing to look at something like this if it was suggested they are doing an awful lot of research into dogs and topics of study can sometimes be suggested.
Do the Cocker Clubs keep records if they are sent details??
If not maybe this is something that I can add to the database I'm making at some point. I have the same for weims and its confidential used only for tracing by the club or people whose dogs have a similar problem so that they have someone else to talk to.
The more I think about this poor little mite really is a miracle that he managed to survive as long as he did.
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My question is why was the first vet's visit 8 weeks after the pups were born? Just seems strange that that is the first time the vet has seen them - the breeder I use has all his puppies checked over a couple of days after they're born just to make sure there is nothing wrong that he hasn't picked up...
I'm not going into a tail docking debate here, but I suppose these kind of things were naturally picked up at a very early stage when the pups were taken in to be docked?
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its a pity really that no one is looking at this sort of thing as a study in genetics. The healthgene people in america might be willing to look at something like this if it was suggested they are doing an awful lot of research into dogs and topics of study can sometimes be suggested.
Abnormalities like this are not necessarily genetic though - they can be caused by something the bitch came into contact with during pregnancy (infection, toxins etc). The fact there were problems with other puppies in this litter suggests to me that maybe environmental factors were more important than genetics here although nobody will ever know that for sure. Much as I support research into genetic conditions, we have to accept that resources for research are always going to be limited and are perhaps better targetted at conditions which are more widely seen than this one :-\
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I'm not going into a tail docking debate here, but I suppose these kind of things were naturally picked up at a very early stage when the pups were taken in to be docked?
that is a point I guess, but the way I think is I'm guessing from my horse breeding days....you watched for the foal to pass its stuff...ok so its only one foal at a time to check, but it should be a similar process in my mind. I constantly check the dogs poop now...maybe I'm just obsessed!!
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but the way I think is I'm guessing from my horse breeding days....you watched for the foal to pass its stuff...ok so its only one foal at a time to check, but it should be a similar process in my mind. I constantly check the dogs poop now...maybe I'm just obsessed!!
Yes it's the same process with puppies :D I'm always on poop patrol when we have a litter and with newborns, I like to see they've all passed a poop within a few hours of being born (some will "go" almost as soon as they are born)
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I'm not too sure how he's overlooked Bracken not pooing but i'm sure he feels awful about it now.
I guess it is just that he is an unexperienced breeder :huh:
He not going to breed again - I think this has shocked him very much!
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I'm not too sure how he's overlooked Bracken not pooing but i'm sure he feels awful about it now.
I guess it is just that he is an unexperienced breeder :huh:
He not going to breed again - I think this has shocked him very much!
and I'm really sorry that its happened it is sad...but if one person 'thinkin'about breedin with their dog reads this and thinks better of it or realises one more thing they have to do for the pups then I'm glad its been mentioned ;)
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I'm not too sure how he's overlooked Bracken not pooing but i'm sure he feels awful about it now.
I guess it is just that he is an unexperienced breeder :huh:
He not going to breed again - I think this has shocked him very much!
and I'm really sorry that its happened it is sad...but if one person 'thinkin'about breedin with their dog reads this and thinks better of it or realises one more thing they have to do for the pups then I'm glad its been mentioned ;)
I agree Lisa :'( I think it is what is called "learning the hard way" :-\ I definitely think breeding is left to the experts ;)
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Like you I agree that if this thread has put at least one person off breeding then thats great but my friend had bred dogs before - this is his 2nd litter with Teal but had bred many times before with other dogs.
I know that what has happened to this litter is awful BUT it could have happened to any breeder.
Yes, another breeder may have recognised the fact that Bracken was abnormal but she would have had to be put to sleep anyway.
I agree Lisa :'( I think it is what is called "learning the hard way" :-\ I definitely think breeding is left to the experts ;)
I am not trying to get into an argument here but all experts have to start somewhere - my friend did everything a breeder should have it was just unlucky that this litter was not a sucessful one :-\
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Sleep well little ones :luv: x
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I'm not too sure how he's overlooked Bracken not pooing but i'm sure he feels awful about it now.
I guess it is just that he is an unexperienced breeder :huh:
He not going to breed again - I think this has shocked him very much!
and I'm really sorry that its happened it is sad...but if one person 'thinkin'about breedin with their dog reads this and thinks better of it or realises one more thing they have to do for the pups then I'm glad its been mentioned ;)
I agree Lisa :'( I think it is what is called "learning the hard way" :-\ I definitely think breeding is left to the experts ;)
agree ;)
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I know that what has happened to this litter is awful BUT it could have happened to any breeder.
Yes, another breeder may have recognised the fact that Bracken was abnormal but she would have had to be put to sleep anyway.
.....and Bracken would not have suffered the discomfort and pain she was no doubt in for 8 weeks; I don't think it is fair to suggest that this could have happened to any breeder; responsible breeders would have ensured their pups were healthy long before they got to 8 weeks old :-\
Few things I read like this touch me emotionally; but the thought of that poor pup suffering the way she must have done - and the distress that Teal must have been in too, knowing her puppy was in need, has left me with a knot in my stomach :'(
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I don't think it is fair to suggest that this could have happened to any breeder; responsible breeders would have ensured their pups were healthy long before they got to 8 weeks old :-\
I meant that the abnormalities in the pups could have happened to any breeder.........I feel exactly the same as you on this subject.
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we had a lamb with this last year by 3 days old its stomach was hugely distended. it had an op and survived then sadly a fox killed it.
however it was obvious by its swollen abdomen that it was distended. checked...no anus, was in vets for less than an hour, small op home and feeding by the afternoon. if mr fox hadnt got it I think it would still be on the go, if not sold on for meat.
Its a shame it wasnt so easily detected in a pup. Surely it was unduly distended? poor puppy. :'(
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healthgene have links to lots of different universities and laboratories and tend to look a little more widely than genetics they also look at viral diseases that might cause Fading Puppy Syndrome for example. They tend to ask for the bodies of effected puppies so that they can study them.
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but the way I think is I'm guessing from my horse breeding days....you watched for the foal to pass its stuff...ok so its only one foal at a time to check, but it should be a similar process in my mind. I constantly check the dogs poop now...maybe I'm just obsessed!!
Yes it's the same process with puppies :D I'm always on poop patrol when we have a litter and with newborns, I like to see they've all passed a poop within a few hours of being born (some will "go" almost as soon as they are born)
That's how I knew Buttons wasn't well with her last litter as she wasn't stimulating them to go to the toilet so I had to do it for her ;) a marked change from her last litter where I had to stop her from eating a litter 6 puppies poo at 8 weeks ph34r I must admit I'm a poo fanatic too and it's something I always check when they've been wormed.
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Do you think non doggy owners think we are wierd examining their deposits :embarassed:
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Do you think non doggy owners think we are wierd examining their deposits :embarassed:
Yes! If most of my non-dog owning friends knew the extent of the poo obsession dog ownership can bring on or how delighted I was when Alfie finally went after his surgery they'd probably stop answering my calls ph34r :005:
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not really related but to do with poop obsession!
I examine Roxys when i pick it up! she eats so much rubbish that she picks up that many strange things come out in her poo! I like to check! ph34r
Freeeaaakkkk!!!
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Poor little mite....have to say I go over all the pups as soon as they are born and I am constantly checking for any abnormalities in fact with my first litter I don't think I moved from the whelping box for about two weeks :005:. I have heard of some awful abnormalities/deformaties and I am dreading coming across any of them....