CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: LisaB on August 03, 2008, 05:10:25 PM
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I noticed some of these on the internet for sale. Is this generally considered a nono, to cross them?
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There is little motive (other than profit) to do so - it is not something that a reputable breeder would do, because the pups would be unlikely to excel at either showing or working :-\
If the sire and dam have been DNA/health screened and are of sound temperament, then the pups will be happy and healthy - although I would expect the breeder to be seeking homes suitable for a dog with a high working drive (just in case they inherit the working traits ;))
Litters bred for profit just perpetuate the problem of unwanted dogs, tbh :-\
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Just to add that a few of us here have part workers and part show. My Louie is 1/4 worker and definately has a higher working drive but looks more like his show type dad. Dad had had health tests and I liked the breeder although she probably didn't tick every box :-\
Other mixes may genetically follow the show type but I guess like any dog, it's almost impossible to tell exactly how they'll turn out. I have no regrets over having a mixed but I had already found out that cockers fell into two "types" so was not un-prepared for how different he might be over my existing show type..
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Yup - Honey is a mix also.... 1/4 show. Wouldn't change her for anything and, like with Jaspersmum, her breeder doesn't tick all the reputable breeder boxes, but we liked her and she genuinely cared for her animals - she wasn't out to make a profit, but was giving her pet dog a litter, using a sire she knew was of good temprement... yes, it could have backfired on us, but we didn't know everything we do now, and fortunately we have ended up with a fantastic little dog! :luv:
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if you were breeding for type and to meet the standard then mixing the two to make improvements would be a benefit. If say for an example I decided to breed a litter of working dogs but wanted to improve on the shape of the line I had then I would be looking away from the working lines to find a show stud that met the standard that showed some working capability and could offer the improvement I was looking for, then I'd breed back to a working line with the next generation with the puppy that had best carried the body improvements.
Breeding isn't just about creating a dog suitable for show or for working it should be about creating an improvement in your line and the breed, that takes time and careful planning. All the cockers came from the same lines not so long ago its only been recent that they have split in body type through purpose but it wouldn't take much to return them so that they had the best of both worlds. A working dog with a proper conformation that met the standard.
I don't think writing them off and keeping them seperate is of any benefit as that will only increase the split and differences between the two in which case a vote for a seperate standard should be reached for the working lines but I do think that both types offer a solution for a single breed - The English Cocker Spaniel.
Now that health testing is becoming a little more acceptable (optigen being registered by the KC can only be a benefit to us all) in working circles, at least its started, then I don't see any reason not to try and aim for the best of both worlds.
Instilling a little of the working ability into a show dog is no bad thing after all this is a working gundog breed and showing is supposed to represent the best examples of the breed not the prettiest.
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We have a mixture too, Bracken only has a very small percentage of working cocker in her 5 generation pedigree, but she really has the coat of a working cocker. It's much shorter and until she was spayed, no where near as fluffy.
She doesn't have the drive of a working cocker though, much happier sleeping and being petted. Not a great fan of mud or dirty things...
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I'll add to this, Roxy is 1/4 working. her mum was half working half show and her dad is full show type. I have to say she looks more like a worker, especailly when you stand her next to a show type. I'm not sure about temprement, she loves agaility but doesn't seem to need hours and hours of walks.
When I looked into her pedigree you can clearly see on her mums side where show dogs have been added into the working lines. She has both SH CH and FT CH so it would be interesting to know why they were suddenly put together. From the names they are well known dogs. I would have thought these were reputable breeders.
I asked on here why you would do this and someone said possibly to get the chocolate colour into the lines. I don't have the colours on the pedigree so I'm not sure about that.
I was more than happy with Roxys breeder. We actually looked at 2 sets of puppies, one set were show types, and had been bred with the intent of one being to show, however there were several niggles we had with this breeder, conditions, her attitude etc so even tho the first breeder ticked more of the 'correct' boxes in terms of a good breeder I was much happeir with Roxys breeder even though her dogs are not contributing to the improvement of the breed.
Its a minefield! I think as long as you know what you are getting and its not a puppy farm then the decision has to be personal.
Was typing mine when Tasha posted! This seems to have been whats happened with Roxys mum!
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I think the reasoning behind Brackens breeding was definitely colour motivated. Both of her parents were chocolate roans and I don't doubt for a minute that a litter of full chocolate roans was the breeders intention.
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Tasha
Thank you for your reasoned and informative comment.
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good thread guys, made my brain tick over!
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EmilyJW, I agree, Roxy was from a litter of Chocolate roans, her mum was liver and white and dad was chocolate roan.
I know people sometimes critcise this saying its done because the colour is fashionable and makes more money. However if a breeder mixed colours wrongly they would be citicised, surely better to have parti-parti chocolate mating than random solid-parti mating??
Incidentally although Roxy was from a chocolate litter she was cheaper than the gold/black solid litter we were originally going to get!
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I know people sometimes critcise this saying its done because the colour is fashionable and makes more money. However if a breeder mixed colours wrongly they would be citicised, surely better to have parti-parti chocolate mating than random solid-parti mating??
No not really - breeding purely for colour is fraught with danger unless the breeders knows exactly what they're doing and has researched their lines and done all the necessary health tests. Most of the chocolate/liver litters you see advertised on certain free-ad sites don't meet that criteria at all - they've been bred because people want chocolate puppies to sell, no other reason.
I can see what Tasha is saying about there may be genuine motives for working lines to be combined with occasional show lines but the fact is that most working/show matings advertised haven't been done with any research or any planned goal other than to produce puppies to sell (some breeders of these litters may not even be aware of the differences between the two types)
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Sadly Jane your absolute right mores the pity. On both sides there is an enormous amount of segregation being encouraged between working and show lines going on with few people looking at the bigger picture of what is happening to the breed itself and the split thats occured.
Personally I am a little tired of people asking me if the working cocker I have is a cocker spaniel at all ::) ::) At the CLA gamefair everyone recognised that she was a working cocker but its not always the case at other events we attend including the Discover Dogs events held by the Kennel Club.
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Personally I am a little tired of people asking me if the working cocker I have is a cocker spaniel at all ::) ::) At the CLA gamefair everyone recognised that she was a working cocker but its not always the case at other events we attend including the Discover Dogs events held by the Kennel Club.
it's frustrating, and more so when you think that Ayla is very typically cocker looking in my view.
I agree with Jane wholeheartedly - you only have to look at the amount of 'unusual' colourings which are now becoming very commonplace to see that some are in it (as ever) only for the money. Undoubtedly there are some absolutely stunning and wonderful dogs coming out of this but at what cost in the future?
the divisions within working cockers are becoming more evident too - the 'traditional' working cocker a la Hedley Millington is becoming less seen, the larger strains (perpetrated with more than a hint of springer blood) seem to be becoming more popular. I'm relieved to know breeders still who are traditionalists TBH :blink:
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There are some lines that appear to be throwing very large dogs but its not surprising really when they were once all part of the same litter but graded. Would be interesting to know if certain combinations go back to the larger dogs... and more importantly which.
Ayla is typical she's been coming to our HPR gundog training of late and looks absolutely tiny in comparison to the Weimaraners and Roughhaired Vizlas in the class, even the pups are bigger than she is :luv: her sire though had a very good conformation but she definitely takes after her dam.
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Slightly OT but are there any books/websites with info about how the working cocker developed? I'd love to know more about how they've become so varied and where the springer/field spaniel blood has come in and what lines tend to have what conformation... Have heard of Hedley Milliongton but no idea what the traditioanl worker looks like let alone how things are going now. This stuff really fascinates me!
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lots of the older books give a good history but the basics are that spaniels was a single breed the litters were graded based on weight and height used for different purposes, colours were introduced by specific breeders and then at some point they were split with their own individual KC Breed Standards.
Does make for very interesting reading.
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Millie is half worker half show. I managed to speak to her breeder and I got the impression she just used her friends show dog to mate to her working bitch as it was convenient. I must say though she's a fantastic looking dog, like an athletic show or refined worker really. Lots of people I meet comment on her.
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Jasper is often described as the "old style" cocker, much bigger than the smaller show types we usually come across.
When you look at the pictures of the origins of the records, dogs like Obo seemed very long backed and short legged. but I think he originated from Sussex spaniel lines :-\
I like the Peggy Grayson book on the History of Cockers. It goes for typical £45 to £50 in the antiquarian stores and ebay but I got mine from WHSmith and although I had to wait a while, I think the price similar to now £16.95 http://www.whsmith.co.uk/CatalogAndSearch/ProductDetails-A+History+of+the+Cocker+Spaniel+-9780951919101.html
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lots of the older books give a good history but the basics are that spaniels was a single breed the litters were graded based on weight and height used for different purposes, colours were introduced by specific breeders and then at some point they were split with their own individual KC Breed Standards.
Does make for very interesting reading.
that was the original basis.....but then along the way and even quite recently springers were introduced amongst other types of dogs. There were and are some lines that were clearly bred into to get a larger dog and a dog with a harder hunting ability...it's debatable whether that worked. Yes they were successful at field trial, but that was at a time where most spaniel judges were very pro springers and the cocker was out of fashion...working cockers are 'in vogue' now as you can tell from the numbers being bred.
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I'm also very interested in the history of the cocker and have many old books,my latest purchase is The Sporting Spaniel by C.A. Phillips and R. Claude Cane, first edition was published in 1906 my copy is 1924 and gives the history of all the spaniels from the 19 hundreds, it makes interesting reading on the evolution of springers and cockers from field spaniels, who look nothing like the field spaniels of today, on looking at the pictures of the very old dogs it is hard to tell the difference between them and there is a picture of a springer that looks very like a modern working cocker, there is also a picture of a black field spaniel bitch called Rona born 1889 and she looks like today's working cocker. The one thing that Phillips mentions is that cocker's have low set ears and I've wondered were the higher set of ear in the workers originates from as the set of the ear is more like a springer. In The new Encyclopedia of the Dog by Dr. Bruce Fogle there is a picture of a modern field spaniel which states that by the end of WW II is was almost extinct, but by 1969 the numbers had safely increased as in the 1960s, English cocker and Springer Spaniels were used to regenerate the breed, producing today's affectionate dog.
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I have a half show/Half Worker, My Aunty and uncle decided to have a go at breeding.
Her name is Honey, for the first few weeks after she was born we were all trying to debate how she was going to look.
She is quite small in comparison to Alfie (full worker) who is only 2 weeks older.
Honey has a very short coat like her mum (working bitch) she is also very athletic and got long legs, but a very pretty little thing, butter wouldnt melt look!
Alfie is more energetic and has such a willingness to learn, Honey is a real Lap dog, very cocker crazy but alot more laid back than Alfie!
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I have a half show/Half Worker, My Aunty and uncle decided to have a go at breeding.
Her name is Honey, for the first few weeks after she was born we were all trying to debate how she was going to look.
She is quite small in comparison to Alfie (full worker) who is only 2 weeks older.
Honey has a very short coat like her mum (working bitch) she is also very athletic and got long legs, but a very pretty little thing, butter wouldnt melt look!
Alfie is more energetic and has such a willingness to learn, Honey is a real Lap dog, very cocker crazy but alot more laid back than Alfie!
Do you know why they chose to use a show stud dog? Would be interesting to know.
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because he is a stunner and his temperment was amazing, and it was their sons (my cousins) Show dog.
I think it was also convenient and something me and my partner agreed too.
Honey has her dads temperment, being a lap dog, but definately takes after her mum being crazy and her coat definately.
Although Honeys Ears are quite straight, and when she got them wet, then go all crimped looking!! they are not very Wavy/Curly
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Instilling a little of the working ability into a show dog is no bad thing after all this is a working gundog breed and showing is supposed to represent the best examples of the breed not the prettiest.
Tasha you make some really good points but I don't know a single serious breeder in show cockers that would/has used a working cocker to produce puppies for the showring :-\
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We have just been up to the Lake District walking for a couple of days (in the rain !!). We were asked several times what breed Bramble and Beri were.....and a couple of people with show cocker's were surprised they were cocker spaniels !
We have found that a lot of people with pet show cocker's don't even know that working cocker's exist.
There were a lot of Cocker's around but it is the Lowther show this weekend, its a shame we had to come home or I would have liked to go and see what "real" workers do !!!
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I am finding this really interesting reading.We have always had show cockers, for 38 years now and have noticed the change in size. When we moved into this house 33 years ago our neighbour had a show type but he was at least twice the size, if not more than ours.
Thankyou to all for giving their time and information.