CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Health => Topic started by: little_jack on January 06, 2009, 05:43:21 PM
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Hi All
Not the best way to start the New Year, took Jack to vets today as they are very insistent about neutering. I waited longer than they wanted as I was hoping for undescended testicle to drop, it hasn't so unfortunately they are having to go into the abdomen. Has anyone had any experience of this? The vet wasnt very forthcoming about what it involves compared to routine neutering (time, recovery etc). Also, couldn't believe how expensive it is :o and neutering is routine so excluded from insurance. I also noticed Jack limping a couple of times so asked for this to be checked too. Apparently his leg doesnt move well when pushed forward (sorry I am probs not making any sense, can't remember exactly how she explained it), might be his elbow, so he is also having x-rays. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I know I'm just getting myself in a flap but I've got all sorts of thoughts going through my head (probs because he is my first dog :luv: ). Sorry for the long, rambling post. Cant help but worry about my baby :D
Kayli
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Poor you :-\
I can't advise you on the leg problem as I have no experience of that. Dave has one undropped testicle but we can feel it in his groin so they know where they are going to get it - I've been quoted £180 to have him done, I don't know how that compares with your vet?
If you feel you are being pushed into things, I would be tempted to get a second opinion from another vet to be honest. I like my vets and trust them - they are upfront about facts and always leave decisions to me and also take advice on how best my dogs will react in certain situations and act on that - I've asked for muzzles to be left off and for me to hold rather than a nurse for particular dogs for painful procedure etc as I know they will be less stressed and react better that way.
Don't feel that because they are professionals and are what they are, that you don't have a right to check what they are saying and compare prices with another practice if you're concerned.
Good luck
Hannah xxx
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Can't help with op question but have you checked with your insurance, they might pay seeing he has to have it done for his health. Neutring is a choice but having an undescended testicle is a health issue, I would have thought.
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Thanks for replies and so quick. £180? Wow, thats good, its £313 with our vet :-\ . I also thought it would be classed as a health issue but I phoned the insurance company and they still class it under the routine/elective surgery bracket.
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If neutering is being advised for health reasons then the insurance may pay - check with them first. I know of a bitch who had a skin problem that was hormonal and the vets recommended spaying her, this was covered on the insurance. Depending on where the undescended testicle is, it could be quite straightforward to find but sometimes it can take a while. There will be 2 wounds instead of one - the abdoiminal one may be quite large depending on how far they have to look to find it. If they have to rummage around for a bit, they may suggest putting him on pain relief for a few days post op but other than that, recovery should be the same. If you have any worries re his leg, then makes sense to have it x-rayed while he's under.
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but I phoned the insurance company and they still class it under the routine/elective surgery bracket.
Thats crazy. Can you not get the vet to write to the insurance company saying you need to get it done for health reasons? After all, you may have elected not to ever get him 'done'.
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but I phoned the insurance company and they still class it under the routine/elective surgery bracket.
Thats crazy. Can you not get the vet to write to the insurance company saying you need to get it done for health reasons? After all, you may have elected not to ever get him 'done'.
Thats an idea, never thought of that, thanks :D . I have requested the claim form anyway and will ask vet if they would give me some form of letter to go with it.
If you have any worries re his leg, then makes sense to have it x-rayed while he's under.
Yeah definitely, thats why I asked to do it all at once so its only one anaesthetic. Also means I get to know sooner and dont have to sit worrying for long. Im bad enough now :D
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Can't offer advice about the neutering but regarding the limping, don't know whether you have anyone near you who does canine massage who could look at the muscular side of action. This wouldn't show on a routing xray.
We are lucky to have someone in our area (Worcestershire) who does this and she was brilliant with Jasper and is booked to see Heidi this week. Pm me if you want her details, even if she isn't close enough to you, she may have links to others in the country ;)
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My old boy was Cript Orchid ( Undescended testicle )and we left it for quite a long time and it dropped just before the op. One of the boys I have at the moment was also Cript Orchid and they could feel it a little further up. The op went just fine and the wound was tiny. The leg thing I'm not sure about, but you are surely doing the right thing getting it xrayed.
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Hi Kayli How old is your little Jack? The reason is because a friend of mine was waiting to get her boy castrated last year and one of his testicles hadn't come down, so the vet advised waiting a little longer and eventually it did come down just before 12 months of age. If Jack is still younger than this, personally i would wait and see. I have also heard of someone giving their dog a shake to see if it comes down, which only surmising :-\ this would mean holding him so his bottom end is facing down wards and 'jiggling' him gently around a bit?? Don't know if anyone else has heard this??
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just out of interest how old is your dog??? Some males don't drop both testicles till they are 18 months... personally I think your vet is taking the p** a little so I would be asking for a second opinion they should not force you to neuter especially not for that price. It is a health concern if they only have one decended testicle and it should be dealt with by neutering but if he is still young sometimes it is worth waiting a little bit longer.
If the testicle remains undecended make sure that you let your breeder know as this can have a hereditary factor to it.
With the current financial situation I am worried that some vets will opt for asking their customers to go through procedures that they don't actually need.
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William had exactly the same problem, an undescended testicle, place of hiding unknown until they operated to remove it. It was near one of his kidneys and apparently it took the vet a while to find it and remove it, which was done when he was 15 months old. I waited until then in the hope that it might appear. He had 2 lots of stitches from the removal of the undescended testicle. One lot was internal, the other external. I can still faintly see the scar from the external stitches.
He had the other testicle removed at the same time, so is fully castrated. I sometimes regret that, as his coat is nowhere near as nice as it was. He's a show type and, as I used to show a bit, I like to keep him in something resembling show trim. But that's just a bit of an annoyance to me, not a problem to William.
After the op. he felt very sorry for himself for about 24 hours. I think it was partly stress from having to spend a whole day at the surgery, which was a new experience for him. It was a new experience for me too, seeing my happy, confident boy in such a frightened state. It was also certainly partly due to pain. I took him back to the vet the next day and got some additional pain relief for him. He was a lot happier after that, but I still ended going back a few more times as he had some swelling and fluid behind the external stitches. I was worried about that, but it didn't bother William at all and it didn't require any additional treatment.
He had to wear a lampshade at first and really hated it, so I decided to just put it on him at night or if I went out and to watch him like a hawk the rest of the time. That worked well and after a few days I think he'd forgotten about the stitches and they clearly weren't bothering him by then.
My insurers are NFU and they flatly refused to pay up because it was elective surgery. I wrote to them and pointed out that it was done on the recommendation of my vet, but they wouldn't pay up.
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My old boy was Cript Orchid ( Undescended testicle )and we left it for quite a long time and it dropped just before the op. One of the boys I have at the moment was also Cript Orchid and they could feel it a little further up. The op went just fine and the wound was tiny. The leg thing I'm not sure about, but you are surely doing the right thing getting it xrayed.
Baja was Cript Orchid also, he was done last year and our insurance (pet plan) paid for the procedure to go ahead as it was a necessity. I would speak to your vet and ask them to let the insurance company know it is a necessity rather than your choice.
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Max also has an undescended testicle but it could be easily seen/felt. I can't remember whether it was quite double the cost of a standard op but we were lucky as it was so near they managed to do them both all through the one incision.
He would also occasionally lift his back leg but only when running at a certain speed IFKWIM but after the op he did it alot less frequently. My OH said (being a man & knowing these things :005:) that the undescended one must have been causing him some discomfort
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Thank you all for your replies, I really do appreciate it :D . Its all so tricky with him being my first dog, think my inexperience is definitely showing. The vet told us to have his neutered as soon as he turned 5 months and wasnt happy when I said no. I really wanted to wait until at least 12-18 months. However, when we went in about his leg, she checked him again and said I was seriously putting him at risk of cancer not getting him neutered now (he is only 8 months). That just freaked me out completely, in fact I felt pretty rubbish, would hate to think I was putting him at risk of anything.
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Thank you all for your replies, I really do appreciate it :D . Its all so tricky with him being my first dog, think my inexperience is definitely showing. The vet told us to have his neutered as soon as he turned 5 months and wasnt happy when I said no. I really wanted to wait until at least 12-18 months. However, when we went in about his leg, she checked him again and said I was seriously putting him at risk of cancer not getting him neutered now (he is only 8 months). That just freaked me out completely, in fact I felt pretty rubbish, would hate to think I was putting him at risk of anything.
Then If that is what she seriously believes then she ought to have no objections in writing to the insurance people to tell them so - as it is not a choice operation then. I think some of these professionals with some knowledge and strong beliefs do try to bamboozle you into doing what they want. and it is a hell of a lot of money that they want for the op too. Think I would shop around, ask for a second opinion too. I too think it should be a combined effort with vets and owners for the good of the critter
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My vet definitely wanted me to have William castrated because of the undescended testicle and warned that there was a small chance, even at a young age, of the undescended one becoming cancerous. But she also said that she prefers not to neuter dogs until their bones and muscles are maturing. She felt that with a dog the size of a Cocker it was best to wait until at least 1 year old to enable their bodies to come through most of their growing naturally.
I felt that I wasn't put under any pressure but was given the options to enable me to make my own decision, which was to wait until he was 15 months old.
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Could you subtly book to see another vet to get a second opinion.
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Thank you all for your replies, I really do appreciate it :D . Its all so tricky with him being my first dog, think my inexperience is definitely showing. The vet told us to have his neutered as soon as he turned 5 months and wasnt happy when I said no. I really wanted to wait until at least 12-18 months. However, when we went in about his leg, she checked him again and said I was seriously putting him at risk of cancer not getting him neutered now (he is only 8 months). That just freaked me out completely, in fact I felt pretty rubbish, would hate to think I was putting him at risk of anything.
Personally, I would consider changing my vets and think this is terrible scaremongering for your vet to tell you he is at risk of cancer at such a young age (unless there are other medical reasons?? :-\)
Don't forget that you and Jack are their customer and you obviously have his health and wellbeing as a priority. If there is no medical reason for neutering so young, please hang in there and do want you think is best for your little Jack.
My boy was neutered at 16 months (reluctantly) because we also have 2 girls now but we probably wouldn't have got him done otherwise.
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There are so many things I'm learning. I never thought the vet would be an issue, they are professionals after all. I also need to trust my own feelings as well I guess. I think if I was a more experienced dog owner then I probably would. Going to another vet is definitely an idea although this particular vet group was recommended to me. There aren't any other medical reasons relating to the vets urgency at neutering (unless the vet has chosen not to share them with me). The two other vets I have used in owning other animals were not the best but may be worth giving another shot now.Thanks so much for the replies. It's so helpful to be able to get honest advice from experienced dog owners.
Kayli
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Thank you all for your replies, I really do appreciate it :D . Its all so tricky with him being my first dog, think my inexperience is definitely showing. The vet told us to have his neutered as soon as he turned 5 months and wasnt happy when I said no. I really wanted to wait until at least 12-18 months. However, when we went in about his leg, she checked him again and said I was seriously putting him at risk of cancer not getting him neutered now (he is only 8 months). That just freaked me out completely, in fact I felt pretty rubbish, would hate to think I was putting him at risk of anything.
Personally, I would consider changing my vets and think this is terrible scaremongering for your vet to tell you he is at risk of cancer at such a young age (unless there are other medical reasons?? :-\)
Don't forget that you and Jack are their customer and you obviously have his health and wellbeing as a priority. If there is no medical reason for neutering so young, please hang in there and do want you think is best for your little Jack.
My boy was neutered at 16 months (reluctantly) because we also have 2 girls now but we probably wouldn't have got him done otherwise.
Sorry!! but that is not wot I wrote at all, my reply is in purple writing. :embarassed:
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I had Taz done at 7 months on vets advice. My parents have used this same vet for 25 years and she came highly recommended from them. She advised at 6 months to have him done but did not put any pressure on me - i decided to have him done over christmas last year so i was at home most of the time whilst recovering (not that that took long).
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Hi my vet's also recommended I had Archie done as soon as he was 6mths old, but he then swallowed the pop sock resulting in major op so I really dont want to have to put him through another lot of surgery just yet. My vet's totally understood and said to re think about it in the summer. Archie is now 8mths on Tues and the vet said he can be done really anytime but best before he is 24mths. What area are you in, maybe speak to other dog owners and ask which vets they use etc, at the end of the day a good recommendation from a few people can help, and don't do anything in haste.
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Definitely worth asking around and perhaps a second opinion, as others have said it can take up to 18 months for both to descend and it is not uncommon, we were lucky in that Harvey's second one came down at about 6 months. We had to make the decision in the end at 10 months and it was the right thing to do for Harvey but each dog is different. Jack is still very young so you may not need to rush a decision.
Another option, is if you go to training have a chat with your trainer as well, our trainer is also a behaviourist and her advice based on what she had seen of Harvey's development over a 20 week period was to wait for as long as possible before neuturing as sexual maturity is not the only impact (we didn't have the undescended issues by this time though).
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Don't feel that because they are professionals and are what they are, that you don't have a right to check what they are saying and compare prices with another practice if you're concerned.
Good luck
Hannah xxx
Completely agree - I have lost faith in my vets (which is a large practice) partly through experience, but also because even in the same practice different vets give different opinions. I was considering getting Roly done when Misha is spade in Feb, but had decided to leave it until he was older and had told my vets this. I also added that since he did have some behaviour issues (separation anxiety), so unless he became overly amourous I might not get it done at all. The response was "what a load of rubbish". So will be taking the business elsewhere. I have been with them for about 8 years and its only in the last year that one of my dogs had to have major treatment of which I'm convinced wasn't needed and which just added to her suffering.
So if you're not convinced check it out.
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If you have any doubt, then I would get a second opinion. Like others have said, it can take a while for it to come down.
I know a local vet told one of our doglets breeders (who knows her stuff, believe me) that she should have one of her pups castrated due to undecended testes and he mentioned cancer to her - she refused and said she'd wait until he was over 12 mths as it can take time to drop, but he had a go at her and from what I remember she gave him an earful back.
It came down after 12 mths and she changed vets !
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I guess I do feel that because they are the vet they know more and will do what is right if that makes sense. I definitely think its worth either getting a second opinion on the neutering or waiting as I had originally planned until at least 12 months. I think the mention of cancer just freaked me out. I'm so glad I can turn to this forum for help and advice :D
Kayli