CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Mittens on June 16, 2009, 01:58:02 PM
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I have a feeling this post will get a mixed reaction - but is it "bad form" as far as training goes to let your puppy/dog on furniture and sleep on the bed?
We have started training classes with Eddie and he's doing really well and picking things up fast (some of the others look like a real handful in comparison :lol:) - at home he's great - ok he 'steals' the odd prize but always gives it back with no possessiveness, we can take food away and give it back etc - and out in the real world our only big issue is recall, as when he sees another dog he's off and running and suddenly goes deaf to all our calls, but we are working on this and using a long line where we know other people and dogs will be around etc - he's only four months!
But I get the distinct impression that our trainer thinks if your dog is allowed on the sofa or to sleep with you then you will not be "pack leader" and in charge...... but I LIKE having Eds lie next to me when I watch TV, and when he puts two paws up on the bed after lights out and I sneak him up on my side for a cuddle and a snooze! :005: Am I really storing up problems and potentially creating an undisciplined dog?
(ps sorry for the long post but i've been stewing on this all night!)
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Ollie is and always has been allowed on the sofa and bed. He doesn't sleep on the bed when I'm in it BUT he chooses that and as soon as i get in he sods off!!! We can tell him down off the sofa and he will do, if he's being a bit crazy when on the bed we tell him down so he knows not to do it!
To me it doesn't show place in the pack I just think its down to personal preference of whether you want them to do it or not.
i think people will have different opinions though!!
L&O x
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Ignore your trainer re pack theory ;). If there are no behavioural problems then IMO I see no reason why he can't be allowed on the furniture. Brodie is always on the sofa and I have never had any problems whatsoever - pack theory is really seen as outdated now, if you do a search for it as well as dominance theory on the forum you will see that this has been discussed many times. Out of interest, can I ask you a question about your trainer - what methods is his training based on? Does he only use positive reinforcement or has he ever suggested the use of adversives?
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I have to say I started off not letting Pebble on the bed or sofa - and I sometimes ended up having 'arguments' with her in trying to get her off.
Many people told me it showed she was trying to be dominant or the pack leader but I have since read many articles/books which say that the idea that a dog is trying to be pack leader because they get on the furniture is pretty much rubbish. It's just often the nicest warmest spot with the best view! In my experience with Pebble she has not changed her behaviour because she sometimes sits on the sofa with me and always sleeps on my bed - in fact I would say our bond is now much stronger than it was beforehand.
I have trained her to get off both when required.
I think as lauranollie said it is completely up to you - whether you allow your dog on the sofa/bed or not - its personal preference but don't disallow it because you think its somehow showing you not to be 'pack leader'
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There are many people on here whose dogs sleep on their bed, surely it's just doing what suits your situation and your personal preference? Morgan is allowed on the sofa and it's lovely snuggling up to him in the evening. To be honest, I don't know how else I'd manage to handstrip his head, it's the perfect opportunity!
I don't have him in the bedroom, nor the cats either, I prefer it that way and in any case I suffer from insomnia and need all the sleep I can get :lol2: My advice is to do what you personally are happy with.
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We must all choose how we want to live with our dogs.
I am sure many of us would be surprised at how many others treat their dogs.And none of them would be wrong!
So many of us on here started with a "no furniture" rule, and many of us have abandoned that particular dream and just live with the jostling on the sofa and begging the dog for a seat scenario! (Buddy is allowed on the sofa "by invitation only" Hah! :005:)
But do ditch the pack theory fiction, and if your trainer is adamant that that is the basis of all training then ditch the trainer!
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I was in the category of no dogs on furniture or bed but also failed miserably - it is down to your own preference but whatever you choose you do need to be consistent... what amazes me is that at different houses they will fall into the rules of that house too...
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So many of us on here started with a "no furniture" rule, and many of us have abandoned that particular dream and just live with the jostling on the sofa and begging the dog for a seat scenario! (Buddy is allowed on the sofa "by invitation only" Hah! :005:)
:lol2: yep I had the same rule for Brodie but she was such a persistent little so and so that eventually she wore me down ::)
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I had Jennie on the bed and Lois when he stayed and both get off bed and chairs when told. My husband goes out early some mornings so he takes her out brings her in with me and we have a little lie in but at the moment she stiil goes to bed in her pen downstaairs.
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Ignore your trainer re pack theory ;). If there are no behavioural problems then IMO I see no reason why he can't be allowed on the furniture. Brodie is always on the sofa and I have never had any problems whatsoever - pack theory is really seen as outdated now, if you do a search for it as well as dominance theory on the forum you will see that this has been discussed many times. Out of interest, can I ask you a question about your trainer - what methods is his training based on? Does he only use positive reinforcement or has he ever suggested the use of adversives?
She uses "reward based" training (treats and a "happy voice") - never any suggestion of physical/negative punishment (or I wouldn't have signed up :blink:)
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Correction to my post i meant to say my new puppy penny gets cuddles on a morning.
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IMO, if that's what your trainer really thinks, it's twaddle :D
As long as you make sure that when you ask your dog to get off he does - i.e. Teach him it - tell him 'off' then and lure him off with a treat and reward him for doing as you ask and practice it a bit, then it's very unlikely you will get any problems. Most dogs are fine living how you like to live and it doesn't undermine normal obedience training, plus you'll get a better bond with them if they live around you too :luv: You might occasionally get a situation where he tries it on and gives you low growl but it's likely he's just checking the lay of the land. Just carry on and teach him off - or you can train them not to get on beds sofa's unless invited if you like - it's all personal choice.
Mine aren't allowed on the bed or even upstairs at the moment, not because I'm worried about not being in charge but because they've both had fleas this year and countless tics :P :lol2: :lol2:
It sounds like you're doing really well with him!
Hannah x
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As others have said - as long as you are consistent and clear about your rules, it really doesn't matter what those rules are...
Honey has always been allowed up onto the furniture - we decided on this before we brought her home as we knew we couldn't consistently enforce a no-furniture rule (cos we wanted cuddles).
She knows to wait for permission to jump onto us when we are sitting down (or next to us), and will sit expectantly waiting for this to be given, and she will get off when we ask her to.
The only time I can see why a no-sofa rule might need to be put in place for training needs would be if this led to guarding issues (which isn't going to be caused by allowing your dog up, but being on the sofa could become a trigger in a dog who was prone to guarding, iyswim) - otherwise it's personal preference as to whether you as an owner wants the dog on the sofa or not.
Honey has only recently been allowed up to our room, and is still only allowed up on invitation, but that was because I was allergic to her when we first got her, so I needed the bedroom dog-free! I really wish she had been able to come up earlier, as she rarely relaxes upstairs, and I would love to be able to have a lie in at the weekend with Honey (oh, and OH I guess! :005: ).
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Hope not, both mine are allowed on the sofa & bed - its the best thing on a chilly night with a good film etc. Usually its two dogs, two cats and me all snuggled up. After all it is their home too and they're both love their cuddles. :luv: :luv:
I did try the "not on the furniture", but I hated it and they hated it - so what was the point.
You're baby is only 4 months, he's recall will get there. Roly also likes to go and say hello to other dogs, and if their owners don't mind I let him (its very good for their socialisation), he will always come back afterwards when he is called. Nowadays, he does it less and is much quicker, will have a quick sniff and come straight back. If I don't want him to go up to another dog, I just change direction.
Both have done their KC certs to Gold (Roly completed his at 10months old), and both now do agility (Misha is coming on nicely, Roly is just a beginner) - don't think having them on the sofa has harmed their training in anyway. ;)
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Ignore your trainer re pack theory ;). If there are no behavioural problems then IMO I see no reason why he can't be allowed on the furniture. Brodie is always on the sofa and I have never had any problems whatsoever - pack theory is really seen as outdated now, if you do a search for it as well as dominance theory on the forum you will see that this has been discussed many times. Out of interest, can I ask you a question about your trainer - what methods is his training based on? Does he only use positive reinforcement or has he ever suggested the use of adversives?
She uses "reward based" training (treats and a "happy voice") - never any suggestion of physical/negative punishment (or I wouldn't have signed up :blink:)
Thanks for replying - I was just curious because from what I've read on the net, a lot of trainers who follow pack theory don't seem to use positive reinforcement very much :blink:
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Bayley sleeps on the bed all night, Douglas and Ollie and our houseguest Lucy all jump on around five in the morning for a snuggle.
I do not have dogs trying to take over my house because of it.
Problems can arise if your dog decides to guard the space or refuse to get off but this can be dealt with through training.
Like every one else has said, there is no definite right or wrong way to live with a dog, just the way you choose. ;)
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Chloe has always been allowed on the furniture and the bed, but my regret is that I didn't teach her to get on "when invited". So she's always on the furniture and this can be a problem when guests come. (Chloe is quite happy to share the settee or chairs, but not everyone wants to sit quite so close to her :005:)It also means its harder to keep her off other people's furniture who prefer that she doesn't jump on it, but its not impossible.
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Chloe has always been allowed on the furniture and the bed, but my regret is that I didn't teach her to get on "when invited". So she's always on the furniture and this can be a problem when guests come. (Chloe is quite happy to share the settee or chairs, but not everyone wants to sit quite so close to her :005:)It also means its harder to keep her off other people's furniture who prefer that she doesn't jump on it, but its not impossible.
its not to late to train her to do that ;) both mine are allowed on sofas and beds although when we got lola i did have to train Biba to only come up when invited..she had always got up when she felt like it ::) as it was causing some jostling and guarding with them both...they are both now quite happy to share a sofa ;) dont think either of mine want to be *pack leader* its too much like hard work for them :005:
do what ever is best for you ;)
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Thanks guys - sometimes you feel a bit like you are the only one who lets them do these things (eg my mother-in-law thinks its 'appalling' he gets on the sofa and in the bed and does have that view that he will 'run riot' because of it :005:) - he can't actually get on or off the bed without help as he's too small, but stretches his two front paws up to the side of my face and breathes on me until i notice! :luv: I then lift him up - does that constitute being "invited"? :lol:
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A friend of OH's family expressed (mock)-disgust that Honey was allowed on furniture - he owns several springers (all of which he works). (I don't like some of his training methods, but his dogs definately adore him!)
Anyway, last year it was FIL's birthday and they had a big party, which included a hog roast... about 50-100 people there.... and he was the only person who gave Honey any tit-bits (and he didn't even ask for a sit for them!!) - apparently it was ok, as it wasn't from the table!!! ::) OH reckons it was cos he was impressed with how well behaved she was generally.... :D
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Bayley sleeps on the bed all night, Dou and Ollie and our houseguest Lucy all jump on around five in the morning for a snuggle.
Aww ...where does Alfie sleep :-\ :005:
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Bayley sleeps on the bed all night, Dou and Ollie and our houseguest Lucy all jump on around five in the morning for a snuggle.
Aww ...where does Alfie sleep :-\ :005:
On my head if he had the chance ;)
Alfie has a crate at the bottom of the bed which he absolutley adores.
He will not settle at night if he does not get his bed time biccky in his den :D
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I don't care what anyone says, I've had many different dogs over the years and I had a dominant male that definitely thought he was boss,and we were young enough and inexperienced enough not to know what to do about it. I uphold the family hierarchy as its always worked for me.
However, IMO, where your dog sleeps is personal preference. Ours is allowed anywhere she wants but I dont like her to sleep on the bed when at night times. That's MY preference because black doggie and cream bedding do not mix LOL
When she was a pup i used the rule "Always or Never" she can either always do it or never do it. None of this, oh she can come on the sofa its a special occassion etc. How the hell can a dog make sense of that. Therfore she can always go on the sofa in the conservatory but never on the leather lounge sofa. And guess what? She knows and she doesnt. Its amazing.
Whatever happens, you have to train them to do as they are told. If she goes on the sofa fine, as long as when you want her off, she gets off. LOL
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mine sleep on the bed, though ive had to stop kiz because she jumps off and im afraid she will hurt her spine again , ella sleeps under the duvet with her head on the pillow with me in the winter ph34r and bruno sleeps on the bed when he wants to, ella will climb up on my shoulder on the sofa, :005: she will stand on me wagging her bottom like crazy but theres absolutley no dominance, they all lie on the 3 seater sofa but have learnt not to lie on the 2 seater, as thats where guests sit , it sounds like you are doing a great job with your pup, so dont worry too much :blink: :blink: laurianna the dominant male thing is a whole different issue ;)
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Ali and Milly are allowed on the furniture but they don't sleep on the beds. Both are really good girls :angel:
My sisters two dogs sleep on the bed with her and her OH and they are the most obedient dogs I have ever seen. :-\ She and her OH never have a lead on them and they would never dream of leaving their side until they have been told they can. :shades:
We are trying not to let Finn on the furniture though- he is just going to be too big (Newfie X St Bernard) to be practical. :o
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Maya is allowed on the sofa but only when I have put 'the blanket' on it for her. So she stands and stares at me and waits and knows she can't get on until the blanket is there. I can say in your bed and not put the blanket on and she will quite happily go and sleep in her bed. Dusty (seventeen weeks old, Mayas puppy) on the other hand, at the moment (haha) just jumps on when and where she thinks she will so a bit more to do with her yet!!
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This is a fascinating thread to follow. I love dogs on the couch. That's why I want a dog. I want to snuggle while I read and watch movies. On the other hand I don't want the dog on other people's couches or on the "Royal Cat's" chair.
I have a neighbor who is convinced that allowing a dog on the couch is the end of a good relationship with your dog- I take it with a grain of salt, she has a berner and a dane. hmmm. may be a different story when you dog is the size of the couch!
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I thought Ben wasn't ever allowed on the bed or couch until I came home early one day and found him and my son snuggled up on his bed, son admitted Ben usually heard me and jumped off before I noticed :lol:
He was never on the couch (i think) but I really think it is personal preference, and as long as they will get down for visitors to actually have a seat, I don't see any harm in it at all.
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Dog trainers who train their animals for TV work will allow the animals on the sofa/bed etc but have a command to tell them to get off - if they had a dog that needed to get on a sofa for an advert or soemthing and the dog hadn't been allowed to do it before, that would be a very confused dog! And TV dogs are some of the best trained, balanced dogs ever IMO, they need to be.
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Glen and Sally are allowed on our bed for snuggles before crate time although up until this year they slept on the bed all night and it was because I got sick of fighting for space that they got crated.
We did have to ban Glen from the bed for a while because he started being a nip when we tried to move him so we could get in and grumbling at us but that has stopped now and peace reigns again. I have not seen any difference in the amount of respect (ie none ::)) my two give me since they started sleeping in a crate as opposed to on my pillow.
Sally is a little angel while Glen has a devilish streak about a mile long...it is down to their personality and not their sleeping/loafing on the couch habits ;)
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My two are allowed on the sofa and their favourite spot is on the back of the one that is in the bay window. They can be a bit of a pain sometimes when guests come round because they are so bloomin persistant but really this is the only thing I find as a problem of letting them on the furniture. They are allowed to lie on the bed during the day but they sleep in their crates at night but this is more because I have a young child and am usually up several times during the night and it would unsettle them. Eric now cries if he isn't in his crate and sleepy times ::)
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Hey whatever works for you. Some dogs do have a dominance issue if you let then in human's space eg on beds sofas etc - some dont.
I would have to say we dont let them on the sofa or chairs - they each have their own beds in our living room and are happy to lie there. They are not allowed upstairs either so we dont have that problem.
The reason is we live in the country and the dogs have a free run of our land for the most time. This means they come in frequently filthy and/or carrying something indescribable. It works for us and they are perfectly happy as they know their boundaries.
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Bayley sleeps on the bed all night, Dou and Ollie and our houseguest Lucy all jump on around five in the morning for a snuggle.
Aww ...where does Alfie sleep :-\ :005:
On my head if he had the chance ;)
Alfie has a crate at the bottom of the bed which he absolutley adores.
He will not settle at night if he does not get his bed time biccky in his den :D
I started to wonder where Alfie was sleeping too ph34r
He is very much like Braan was, he wouldn't settle out of his crate at night either
since Fern is an only dog now (well for the time being) she has been spoilt rotton in that she doesn't sleep on the bed any more - she sleeps IN it :005: yep under the duvet between me and OH :shades:
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Hey whatever works for you. Some dogs do have a dominance issue if you let then in human's space eg on beds sofas etc - some dont.
I would have to say we dont let them on the sofa or chairs - they each have their own beds in our living room and are happy to lie there. They are not allowed upstairs either so we dont have that problem.
The reason is we live in the country and the dogs have a free run of our land for the most time. This means they come in frequently filthy and/or carrying something indescribable. It works for us and they are perfectly happy as they know their boundaries.
Are you sure it is a dominance issue? could it be simply a training issue? Dominance is a label that gets confusing when referring to our relationships with dogs IMO, much misunderstood I'm afraid.
I have a dog who won't get out of his bed to pee at night, he is old and really can't be bothered. Does the fact I have to put his lead on and ensure he goes out make him dominant?
See what i mean, he's 14 bless him partially blind and a little hard of hearing and he's always been stubborn. :D
Is he dominant over me? well I get what I want in the end without confrontation so make your own mind up.
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Hey whatever works for you. Some dogs do have a dominance issue if you let then in human's space eg on beds sofas etc - some dont.
I would have to say we dont let them on the sofa or chairs - they each have their own beds in our living room and are happy to lie there. They are not allowed upstairs either so we dont have that problem.
The reason is we live in the country and the dogs have a free run of our land for the most time. This means they come in frequently filthy and/or carrying something indescribable. It works for us and they are perfectly happy as they know their boundaries.
Are you sure it is a dominance issue? could it be simply a training issue? Dominance is a label that gets confusing when referring to our relationships with dogs IMO much misunderstood I'm afraid.
I have a dog who won't get out of his bed to pee at night, he is old and really can't be bothered. Does the fact I have to put his lead on and ensure he goes out make him dominant?
See what i mean. :D
Agree with Mark - why is a dominance issue if they prefer a sofa or a bed? Why does that make the human 'submissive' - and where is that 'dominance is old hat' article again :lol2:
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People spout on about it and just don't get it really, Everything is down to dominance. :005:
Sounds a little bit like a certain American (can I call him a trainer??) that I'm not getting into a debate about again honest.
I do believe some people let their dogs get away with murder though but this can be changed through training not imposing your will.
Dominance reeks of confrontation and that is not my way of doing business.
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Bayley sleeps on the bed all night, Dou and Ollie and our houseguest Lucy all jump on around five in the morning for a snuggle.
Aww ...where does Alfie sleep :-\ :005:
On my head if he had the chance ;)
Alfie has a crate at the bottom of the bed which he absolutley adores.
He will not settle at night if he does not get his bed time biccky in his den :D
since Fern is an only dog now (well for the time being) she has been spoilt rotton in that she doesn't sleep on the bed any more - she sleeps IN it :005: yep under the duvet between me and OH :shades:
That spot is reserved for my Douglas he is our inbetweeny :005:
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He he!! mine don't sleep on the bed or sit on the sofas cos they are dominant - they do it cos they luv a cuddle with their mum!!
That's our story and we're sticking to it :005: :005:
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My home,my furniture, my dog.''when it suits me; hes on the sofa. >:D
:police: I do not like him up stairs so hes sent down >:D if I get him up there.
suit yourself,
trainers have got the rules and guidelines. >:(
Cocker's love to please you.
There no way naughty. :wasntme: just love to be loved,and played with.
rule
do not worrie love your dog. :luv:
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He he!! mine don't sleep on the bed or sit on the sofas cos they are dominant - they do it cos they luv a cuddle with their mum!!
That's our story and we're sticking to it :005: :005:
See I agree with this.....mine don't want to be over me..it's not a case of we're on the sofa and you on the floor. I sit on the floor in the hall when on the phone and Glen comes and sits between my legs there....he just has to be where we are.
In fact funnily enough I was on the floor in the hall yesterday being suffocated by two cockers as I had been on the phone but when I came off I just lay down and snuggled them...my oh complained he was lonely on the chair all by himself :005: