CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: sharonmansfield on July 01, 2009, 01:32:37 PM
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Hello All - Can someone please help me with our cocker Bella. She is a 2 year old show type cocker bitch and the light of my life. However, The problem is when out on walks her recall is terrible to non existent. When let off the lead she will play ball for a while then she will get the scent of something and then its head down, nose on, turn ears off. She will also just bound over to other people and dogs and I have to go and fetch her to get her back on the leash. Its embarrasing to shout a dog that just does not appear to hear you - she is not deaf by the way she can hear cheese unwrapping in the kitchen from the garden so its kind of selective. If the fields are busy then I tend to keep her on a flexi lead but its not the same as having a good run about. I cant relax and enjoy our walks for constantly looking out for other people its all becoming a bit stressfull.
Her recall at home is wonderful its like when out she is totally distracted. I have met 2 other cocker owners with the same problem. I have never had a problem like this with the GSD we had and our other younger cocker Jasmine is brilliant.
I have also spoken to people with other breeds of dogs who have a similar issue and the link I can find is that the dogs were over 3 months old when they had them. We had Jasmine at 7 weeks. Bella was 4 months.
I was wondering if training her to come to a whistle might help? I would greatly appreciate any feedback anyone has, I know there are a lot of people on here with a wealth of experience with the breed, Bella is my first one. Many thanks
Sharon
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I would start by putting her on a longline and harness. The trick with recall is to make yourself much more interesting than anything else. It generally means you have to run around making a fool of yourself ph34r :005: - do you reward her when she comes back? I'm sure someone else will be along with more tips :D
you have my sympathy on the people front - Brodie loves children and I have to put her on the lead before she spots them otherwise she's been known to create havoc :embarassed: ph34r
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We're having the same problem with one of our dogs! he's like the dog that's never grown up!! We've not got him on a long line, and working at his recall. you'd think they would be too tried to run off far in this heat. The other 3 are great, never leave our sight, unless Chester spots a cat or bird, but even then we can call him away from a bird.
I'd be interested in what others have to say.
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Many thanks for responding - I have tried the jumping around and flapping my arms and generally looking a fool but she does not even look in my direction, I think the only way I could be more interesting is if I smelled of fox poop!!!!
I have tried the rewards when she comes back but she is just not interested in taking food when out walking which is strange as she is a real foody. I will try a long line thats a very good idea many thanks. Could do with a big fishing rod so that I can reel her in ha ha!!!!
Thanks again
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Is she interested in a particular toy? Brodie has a rope toy she only sees on walks - I sometimes use it as a reward by playing with her, I guess if she's not food-orientated you could try that?
Like the idea of a fishing rod :005:
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I'm working on recall with my (nearly) 5 month old and it's the same story - perfect at home in the garden, at training and in an empty field - non-existent with the distraction of other dogs or people or birds in the park >:D
We have bought a long line which we have on his harness and we just practise, practise practise with a treat every single time he comes. I had a minor breakthrough on Sunday on my own with him, nothing around so we were walking off lead - he spotted a dog and kids a mile off and started to run off, I shouted and jumped about and when he turned to look I walked in the opposite direction, he weighed it all up AND RAN BACK TO ME!!!! It was the eureka moment that keeps me going! I anticipate it will be a long time before his recall is anywhere near consistent, but keep at it is the key i think. Good luck :lol2:
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Whatever you do, nail it early. I reckon I am not the best adviser, given how Rufus is. However with much hard work recall has improved, but it is not what it should be at 4 and a half. I can however direct him with commands now in our usual walk, to stop him going to his favourite hunting ground but I have to be very firm.
Looking back, because he was so good at following me til he was about 5/6 months, and did it indoors, I did not realise how great the problem would be. I think I did not call him back or distract him early or often enough, and I did not use a strict enough voice.(I now growl). He was not food or toy oriented. It has been suggested that clicker training to establish focus on one's face is useful, and a long line may help you. Agility has helped close control. I am not sure I will ever stop the hunting completely, so I try to compromise. I do not have him going over to people joggers or cyclists , having worked hard on the leave command since he was nearly kicked by a jogger at about 18 months. If he does it he gets praise, if not he gets put on the lead and our games stop. Close recall on the green has been a matter of constant repetition, and not giving up. He may still chase a pigeon, but comes back. I hope others can give you better advice and good luck.
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I'm having a similar problem with Lola. Now the warm weather is here all the older kids congregate at the park in the evenings having impromptu bbqs and drop their crisps/Pringles/popcorn - you name it - they drop it and don't clear it up.
Lola gets her deaf ears on and she's off......the other night I hid from her (the other side of the park) just to see if she would even bother to realise that I was not around. Not a chance, the popcorn was far too interesting. In the end I had to go get her >:D
Later on our walk however (away from said park), I did some recall with her and she was brilliant :-\
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A month ago I thought I had cracked it it was raining every night and I had the fields to myself and we had fantastic games of fetch with tennis balls and she came to me and sat and I really felt I was getting somewhere, one night I asked her to sit and stay she did and I could put her lead on and I understand the eureka moment as I had a grin from ear to ear at my clever dog and she got so much love and praise for being a special good girl, however we then went on holiday and on the beach she was off sniffing again and would not look to me running off to greet other people, totally embarrassing. The beach was edged by a golf course how exciting was that men in bright shirts hitting balls I was screaming like a banshee LEAVE as all the men stood looking at me >:(
I think like mcphees comment it is probably my fault as I allowed her to sniff instead of playing and calling her back when on a walk when she was younger.
I am going to try all of the advice and try the long line and take a new toy ( brand new and just for walks) and take her out on my own without my other dog to see if I can keep her focus. I am excited about giving it a go.
Many thanks again for everyones comments I have had a chuckle at some of them as I can totally sympathise, its nice to know I am not alone!!!!
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Can't offer any help, just sympathy :shades: ;)
Chloe, 14 months, has been virtually housebound the last 10 days due to her spay, but the last time she was off lead, she tried to attack a stunt kite that dive bombed onto "her" beach, and she also found the smallest hole in the fence that separates the dunes from the road to the campsite. Would she listen to me or the whistle? Would she hell >:D
I am taking the drastic measure of driving all the way down to York for Mr. Top Barks to sort her/us out (no pressure Mark, honest ;))
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I only have experience with working dogs but basically if you recall you need to follow it up, every time, even if this means going after the dog yourself.
You should never ask twice because that way you're teaching the dog to ignore your first command and think that 'in a minute or not at all is good enough'.
Although its written for working dogs the Gundogs Grade 1 guide describes teaching recall amongst other things in detail and it's a really good book http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/shop/books/TrainingGuides/passinggradeone.htm
Although its aimed at working dogs some of the exericses are just as relevant for pet dogs.
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I do sympathise with you.
If you look through some of my previous posts you will see that i have had lots of problems with recall with Marley who is 3 and a half.
However, by following some of the great advice i have had from this forum his recall has vastly improved. Through the winter i used a long line and since then have introduced a whistle and dropped the long line. We are still not completely there and i still limit his time off lead (still normally no more than 15 minutes at a time and this i have had to build up to gradually over the last 6-8 months).
If you get a chance read through some of my old posts because you will find some clear explanations (far better than i could explain)about how to use a whistle/longline etc from Top Barks, Nicola and Trevor to name just a few.. Good luck :D
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I only have experience with working dogs but basically if you recall you need to follow it up, every time, even if this means going after the dog yourself.
You should never ask twice because that way you're teaching the dog to ignore your first command and think that 'in a minute or not at all is good enough'.
Yup I agree, I had a running joke about wearing my running shoes when Alfie was in bogging off mode but I wasn't kidding, if he went and ignored my first recall I went after him and brought him back. It takes a lot of perseverance but it does work if you're utterly 100% consistent about it, you cannot let them get away with it even once or you put yourself back to square one again.
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I only have experience with working dogs but basically if you recall you need to follow it up, every time, even if this means going after the dog yourself.
You should never ask twice because that way you're teaching the dog to ignore your first command and think that 'in a minute or not at all is good enough'.
Although its written for working dogs the Gundogs Grade 1 guide describes teaching recall amongst other things in detail and it's a really good book http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/shop/books/TrainingGuides/passinggradeone.htm
Although its aimed at working dogs some of the exercises are just as relevant for pet dogs.
Thank you for this, I will get it. What occurs to me is that when you first own a dog like Rufus (if you do not know about COL), lots of people, even trainers, give you competing advice. I was told variously, not to gun dog train because it would brake his spirit (!), to let him off the lead as soon as he had had his jabs, but most relevant to your advice, NEVER to follow him into the hunt, even to retrieve him. I am supposed to walk off. I have been quite confused over the years. There are some places where I simply cannot reach him to get him out. Perhaps the suggested book will give me some better ideas. I hope it wont be too late.
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I only have experience with working dogs but basically if you recall you need to follow it up, every time, even if this means going after the dog yourself.
You should never ask twice because that way you're teaching the dog to ignore your first command and think that 'in a minute or not at all is good enough'.
Although its written for working dogs the Gundogs Grade 1 guide describes teaching recall amongst other things in detail and it's a really good book http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/shop/books/TrainingGuides/passinggradeone.htm
Although its aimed at working dogs some of the exercises are just as relevant for pet dogs.
Thank you for this, I will get it. What occurs to me is that when you first own a dog like Rufus (if you do not know about COL), lots of people, even trainers, give you competing advice. I was told variously, not to gun dog train because it would brake his spirit (!), to let him off the lead as soon as he had had his jabs, but most relevant to your advice, NEVER to follow him into the hunt, even to retrieve him. I am supposed to walk off. I have been quite confused over the years. There are some places where I simply cannot reach him to get him out. Perhaps the suggested book will give me some better ideas. I hope it wont be too late.
You're always going to get conflicting advice on things, especially dog training I've found! I've read plenty of books and spoken to plenty of trainers and I don't treat any of them as being 'the bible' or see it like I must follow all the advice in any of them to the letter. I take out the bits which I think apply to my dogs and our situation and discard the rest and I don't use the same methods for all my dogs, they're all individuals and I tailor their training accordingly.
For recall running in the opposite direction undoubtedly works for some dogs, Rodaidh for example never lets me out of his sight and would instantly come steaming after me but Alfie wouldn't have given a toss if I'd dropped off the face of the earth when he was in hunting mode. I could have run away screaming at the top of my lungs and juggling roast chickens and he wouldn't have stopped what he was doing to follow me. The only way to get him back to me was to go after him - this was the best method for him, it may not be the best method for some other dogs, like Rodaidh for example. It's down to the owner who knows their dog and how they react (or not!) to look at the options and then decide what suits them and their dog best.
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I agree with Nicola, what suits one may not be right for another.
I have a barker who is pretty strong willed and I need all my wits about me when I'm out with her. I do alot of heel walking with her and recall sessions but I know that if she sees it first and moves before I know whats happening she'll go deaf and only come back when she's done the deed (barking in our case), but if I'm watching everything I can recall her to me and stop the process before it gets started, so for us this works.
I will also try to retrieve her if she will not come back as I believe if I give a command and she ignores it and I let it go I'm just reinforcing that it's ok with me for her to do her own thing , ignore me and come back when she wants.
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I could have run away screaming at the top of my lungs and juggling roast chickens and he wouldn't have stopped what he was doing to follow me.
I'm sorry - I nearly choked with laughing on my salad at my desk at this comment!! Thanks, you have made my dull working day!! :005: This sooooooo applies to our new puppy!
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I only have experience with working dogs but basically if you recall you need to follow it up, every time, even if this means going after the dog yourself.
You should never ask twice because that way you're teaching the dog to ignore your first command and think that 'in a minute or not at all is good enough'.
Although its written for working dogs the Gundogs Grade 1 guide describes teaching recall amongst other things in detail and it's a really good book http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/shop/books/TrainingGuides/passinggradeone.htm
Although its aimed at working dogs some of the exercises are just as relevant for pet dogs.
Thank you for this, I will get it. What occurs to me is that when you first own a dog like Rufus (if you do not know about COL), lots of people, even trainers, give you competing advice. I was told variously, not to gun dog train because it would brake his spirit (!), to let him off the lead as soon as he had had his jabs, but most relevant to your advice, NEVER to follow him into the hunt, even to retrieve him. I am supposed to walk off. I have been quite confused over the years. There are some places where I simply cannot reach him to get him out. Perhaps the suggested book will give me some better ideas. I hope it wont be too late.
You're always going to get conflicting advice on things, especially dog training I've found! I've read plenty of books and spoken to plenty of trainers and I don't treat any of them as being 'the bible' or see it like I must follow all the advice in any of them to the letter. I take out the bits which I think apply to my dogs and our situation and discard the rest and I don't use the same methods for all my dogs, they're all individuals and I tailor their training accordingly.
For recall running in the opposite direction undoubtedly works for some dogs, Rodaidh for example never lets me out of his sight and would instantly come steaming after me but Alfie wouldn't have given a toss if I'd dropped off the face of the earth when he was in hunting mode. I could have run away screaming at the top of my lungs and juggling roast chickens and he wouldn't have stopped what he was doing to follow me. The only way to get him back to me was to go after him - this was the best method for him, it may not be the best method for some other dogs, like Rodaidh for example. It's down to the owner who knows their dog and how they react (or not!) to look at the options and then decide what suits them and their dog best.
Hmm. The idea of a choice for Rufus between the hunt and roast chicken sounds really interesting. Not sure what he would do. Or whether we would get to the hunting ground with the chicken intact. I do know what you mean about tailoring the commands etc and our behaviour. However, as a first time dog owner who was struggling, I didn't have the understanding to chose the right thing. We live and learn.
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I like the juggling roast chickens comment and I can assure you that Bella would not care either, when her nose is down she is switched off to me, she does not hear me or see me. You can run in the other direction but then you have to turn around and go and fetch her as she has not seen that you have gone in the first place. Tonight it was a black labrador that took her fancy, the other owner was a star, he put his dog on the lead and completely ignored her because thats another thing she runs off to other people and they give her a pet and tell her she is a lovely girl reinforcing her shoddy behaviour. I felt like saying to the lab owner do you want to train my girl as his dog did exactly as it was told - sickening!!!!
She is in for a shock this weekend because that was the last time she shows me up in public. Tomorrow its of to PAH to get a long line and a whistle and a new special toy. ( and probably new collars and treats etc etc as I cannot resist!) its time for Bella Bootcamp!!!!!
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This is one method I used and was posted by a friend on another forum but i hope she won't mind me pinching it to share with you guys.
Leslie Nelson says that the Really Reliable Recall is easy to learn, easy to teach, fun and reliable. Works at a distance, no matter what dog is doing and is instant.
Before starting to train it, you need to do a few things:
1. You need to find somewhere to let your dog off lead. Neighbour's gardens, fenced fields, tennis courts, indoor riding schools. Anywhere you can let them run but they do need to run. If your dog likes to run and they never have the opportunity, obviously they won't come back if you do let them off.
If you can't find a totally secure area, she suggests letting the dog drag a line to give you more confidence that you'll be able to stand on the line if they take off.
2. You need to make sure also that your dog has plenty of mental exercise also. She recommends clicker training. And teaching a retrieve - if your dog is focussed on fetching a toy, they are running but less likely to run off.
3. Never call the dog for unpleasant things. If you need your dog to clip their nails or come in from the garden or anything else they don't like, go and get them. If they think coming to you might result in something bad happening, it will weaken your recall.
4. Always reward your dog if they come to you for any reason. Automatic check ins are good things and if you reward them you'll get more of them.
5. Don’t call the dog if you think they won’t come. Doing that teaches them they can ignore recall cues.
6. Play lots of recall games. Hide and seek around the house or having two handlers, both with the same rewards and calling dogs between them.
7. Make a list of all the things that your dog likes and which you can use to reward them. Katie likes food, a thrown ball, tuggy with a rabbit skin, having her ears scratched and getting to go off to hunt again.
8. You need a strong, positive relationship for a good recall and the above 7 things will help with that. I'd also do TTouch to help with the relationship. Before doing things with your dog, think how it might impact on the relationship.
9. If you have a particularly independent dog you might have to teach them to like being touched and spoken to. You can use food. Feed them their daily food while talking to them and stroking them.
Once you have done all of the above, you can start the first step to teaching the recall. This step teaches the dog they need to pay attention.
Say name in tone you will use when you want the dog to look at you.
Reward for the dog looking at you - best to use a clicker or make the look with a special word and then give a treat. The dog might not be next to you and you need to reward them instantly for looking at you.
Your aim is to have 100 times when your dog looks at you the instant you say their name (not all at once, you might practise this a few times a day).
If you get it wrong. You haven’t got to 100 and the dog doesn’t look, do something unexpected. Run out of room, play with another dog etc. Then start again with the name game.
Do not repeat the name. The name has to be a first time only thing.
Once you have the 100 times, you are ready to start teaching the Really Reliable Recall.
Really Reliable Recall:
1. Need a signal.
Needs to be a new word. Something you don’t use for anything else. Doesn’t matter what it is. Can use NOW. Yoo Hoo. Biscuits. What’s This etc.
You can teach more than one signal. I.e. individual signals for each dog. Also a group one.
2. Use the new signal 3 times a day for the next few weeks or months (depends on how independent the dog is) when you are 100% certain that the dog will come to you. Start in the house for the first few days or weeks.
3. ONLY SAY IT ONCE.
4. Reinforce every step. Cheer, clap – show enthusiasm for every step.
5. Feed / Play with the dog for 30 secs – 1 min after they have come to you. Use special treats, special toys, everything you have. The reward must last for between 30 secs and 1 minute - time it because it is longer than you think.
Leslie Nelson suggests that to get your enthusiasm for the recall at the correct level, imagine your worst case scenario for recall (i.e. dog chasing cat toward a busy road) and imagine using the recall signal and the dog turning instantly and coming to you at top speed. Reward every practise as if it is that recall.
The most common reasons that Leslie has seen for recalls not working are owners repeating the cue, not practising 3 times a day and being stingy with the rewards.
If it goes wrong and the dog doesn’t come after you call him even though you were 100% sure he would Do something odd. Run and hide. Get in car. Play with toys.
Then do 1 easy recall, reward heavily and go back to practising in the house for 2 weeks.
The longer you can go practising 3 times a day, without testing the recall, the stronger it will be.
Doing the practise should also improve every day recall.
P.S. Leslie Nelson has Afghan Hounds and Whippets and says she can recall them from chasing using the really reliable recall.
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Thank you Top barks. I may have my work cut out achieving RRR. I am definitely going to try to achieve the 100 looks when I have rehearsed the other stuff.No 5 of the preliminary stuff could be a problem. If Rufus has gone in the maize, should I not call him?
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wow thanks for all of this Topbarks I really do appreciate your time to help. I have started intensive training today and this is a massive help to point me in the right direction.
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Thank you Top barks. I may have my work cut out achieving RRR. I am definitely going to try to achieve the 100 looks when I have rehearsed the other stuff.No 5 of the preliminary stuff could be a problem. If Rufus has gone in the maize, should I not call him?
If you can't be sure he'll come then no or he'll learn to ignore you!
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Well its now a week on and we have practiced everyday, I did not get the long line as we ended up not going out shopping but that does not mean I have dismissed this advice.
I have tried the following first.
I took her out on her own to start the play and training with a nice new tug toy, she was not interested at all, I felt a bit disheartened but this was day one. Day two I could not take them out individually so gathered up both dogs and some treats. We started to play our ball games and I kept making her focus on chasing a ball and then I called her to bring it back to me, this did not work at first as she just bogged off with the ball, however I got the treats out and Jasmine my well behaved dog came to get one, Bella on seeing this came storming over as she could not miss out if Jasmine was getting something (this is a dog that does not normally eat treats when out, never thought of using Jasmine to help!!) little and often I have called them both back and given a treat and a cuddle. This has been working but only when she is focused on the ball game. When she does one into the undergrowth she tunes out still - I am however now going into the undergrowth and dragging her out to get her focus again and starting the game over. I think Nicola suggested that - thank you.
I am so committed to making this work.
Its early days yet but I do feel more positive as at least she has been coming back and getting a reward and a cuddle, this is more than she did this time last week. If there are distractions about, for now I just put her back on her long flexi lead and then let her off again when its passed.
I find it quite exciting to see some improvement already and a method that seems for now to be working.
Thank you everyone for your advice I will post again when we have done some more.
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Good for you. The key thing is consistancy, so keep at it, no days off :005:
They'll be good days and bad days but hang in there and your perseverance will show rewards.
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Thanks for your support Milly its really appreciated it, today I had another breakthrough, at first she was naughty and ran off to greet a young lad with 2 dogs so I apologised and told him she was in training and dragged her away not that he was bothered but lack of doggy manners bothers me, I got her focus again when a lady turned up with a golden cocker well she was off so I shouted Bella come and she actually turned around and came back, my dog stopped in her tracks and came back - I was choked. In just a week she is actually getting it. She has lapses and I know this will take time but by using a mixture of advice from everyone who responded to my plea she is a far better behaved dog today than she was this time last week. I am thrilled.
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That's great to hear :shades: :D It takes time and (lots of!) patience but it's amazing when you see them really starting to get it.
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Nicola thanks I can't tell you how over the moon I was, I took your advice so every time she bogs off and ignores me I go and get her and get her to re-focus on what we are doing and its working, I am thrilled.