CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => General Cocker Spaniel Discussion => Topic started by: mooching on March 03, 2010, 02:03:09 AM
-
We are anticipating getting a cocker within the next year or so, and, after some initial research, are probably leaning towards getting a working cocker. But it's not definite yet, and I was just wondering what people here felt the differences were between the two cocker types (if any). I'm interested to hear about everything really, eg temperament, behaviour, health and anything else at all that you might want to tell me about!
Also, are working cockers and show cockers available in every colour, or are there some colours which are specific to just one type? And does there tend to be any difference in temperament/character between the different colours? We currently have a CKC spaniel, and there definitely seems to be character differences between the 4 different colours. Previous to that we had a poodle, and the same tends to apply there too.
-
Sorry moderators, just as I posted this I thought I had (belatedly) better check out the FAQs, and found Jane S's thread there. I would however be interested to know other members's opinions and experiences as well, so if this thread could possibly be allowed to stay, that would be great, but if not, no worries.
-
I have one of each, and they are totally different! That said, I really think it's about the way they are brought up, and very much like people, you get variety in both breeds!
My show, Chops, is 10 and has never really played (he used to chase Chewitt to steal the ball, but once he had it he wasn't interested) he's quite a lazy boy, is quite happy with his walks, and a bed, and doesn't seem to want much else!
Chewitt my first show cocker was mental :005: chewed anything and everything for the first 2 years of his life, and always behaved like a kid on blue smarties!! He was perfect, always keen for walks and had a big love of life :luv: (he sadly had to be pts at 8, liver tumours :'()
Smartie on the other hand is a worker, and is again, perfect! She plays, enjoys a couple of hours walk a day, and is the most loyal, loving dog I've ever known. If it's quiet time, she knows, and will sleep (I know alot of workers are hyper ALL the time!)
TBH, when I got her, I didn't know there were 2 types, and went into it totally blind. Thankfully the gamble payed off!
Whichever you decide is best for you, they are the most loyal, faithful, devoted and gentle dogs I have ever known, and can't imagine myself ever having a different breed!
-
I always think there is a fairly basic answer to this question, If you purely want a pet , are able to walk it twice a day etc then I would get a Show, If however you are looking to work the dog, Gundog train it or at the very least do some sort of activity with it (Agility, fell walking etc) then a Working Cocker would be for you. I know that sounds over simplified but in my mind that answers your question.
The two starins not only look very different but have different traits and requirements. A worker generally needs a lot more exercise and mental stimulation as they are bred to work, whereas Show still need regular exercise and stimulation but generally not to the same extent as Workers. The Show Cockers coat requires more grooming etc whereas the Workers require less.
Before joining COL I had no idea there were 2 strains, I know a lady who has 2 cockers , a Show, and unbeknown to her a Worker, She was chatting one day and telling me she couldn't wait for her coat to grow like Belles, it was obvious to me that the dog was a worker so enquired about her breeder etc, she went on to tell me that her parents/ grandparents had been shown in Crufts etc :huh:. I didn't have the heart to tell her she had a worker cos what she thought she had bought was A show. I am rambling now but when you have done your research and made up your mind, make sure you use a reputable breeder and get what you pay for ;) Good luck
-
If you purely want a pet , are able to walk it twice a day etc then I would get a Show, If however you are looking to work the dog, Gundog train it or at the very least do some sort of activity with it (Agility, fell walking etc) then a Working Cocker would be for you.
The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).
We have an elderly CKC at the moment who is a lazy laid-back little lad. Even when he was younger he'd like a bit of a long walk occasionally, but was also happy just to sleep and laze around. And couldn't be bothered to retrieve (he'd just shoot you a look and pootle off somewhere else!) and really wasn't interested in being trained other than to sit.
When he goes, we will be utterly bereft (understatement). One way I am trying to start coping even now is to look ahead, to look past his passing, and look forward to a new adventure with a dog with a different outlook and temperament. Hence my leanings towards getting a working cocker.
I am rambling now but when you have done your research and made up your mind, make sure you use a reputable breeder and get what you pay for ;) Good luck
Thank you! I have located a possible breeder not far from us; they are small and all pups are reserved before they are even born. I've checked some of the names in the lines of their dogs, and they're all from good places. So I think we will be fine there!
-
If you purely want a pet , are able to walk it twice a day etc then I would get a Show, If however you are looking to work the dog, Gundog train it or at the very least do some sort of activity with it (Agility, fell walking etc) then a Working Cocker would be for you.
The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).
We have an elderly CKC at the moment who is a lazy laid-back little lad. Even when he was younger he'd like a bit of a long walk occasionally, but was also happy just to sleep and laze around. And couldn't be bothered to retrieve (he'd just shoot you a look and pootle off somewhere else!) and really wasn't interested in being trained other than to sit.
When he goes, we will be utterly bereft (understatement). One way I am trying to start coping even now is to look ahead, to look past his passing, and look forward to a new adventure with a dog with a different outlook and temperament. Hence my leanings towards getting a working cocker.
I am rambling now but when you have done your research and made up your mind, make sure you use a reputable breeder and get what you pay for ;) Good luck
Thank you! I have located a possible breeder not far from us; they are small and all pups are reserved before they are even born. I've checked some of the names in the lines of their dogs, and they're all from good places. So I think we will be fine there!
have you checked they're fully health tested? :D
-
The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).
I don't want you to get the impression show-type dogs are lazy couch potatoes although some might be ;) There are plenty of show-type Cockers who love nothing more than long walks in the countryside and who also enjoy activities like agility. When I used to do more hiking than I do now (when I was fitter :D), I always used to take a couple of our show dogs with me & they were more than capable of doing long hikes but equally if I wasn't going out for a long walk, then they'd be equally happy with a shorter walk & then mooching around the garden with me. If a working Cocker would suit you better, then that's fine but just didn't want you to get the wrong idea about show-type dogs.
-
Just because a dogs a show cocker doesnt mean it doesnt have lots of energy. Of course comparing show and working the worker will have a higher drive and more energy but comparing a show cocker to a CKC the show is going to have bundles more energy.
I have working cockers and my friend has show type, they all go on really long walks together and all the dogs keep up with each other. The only difference is when we get home hers sleep and mine are waiting for whats going to happen next :005:
There are show cockers who excell at flyball, agility etc and have lots of stamina and energy for what you describe. With working cockers its not all about walks its about what you do with their minds too, shows do tend not to need as much mental stimulation (though of course still need quite a bit) and be happy to sleep after a long walk (just genralising all are of course different) whereas I have taken mine out for the whole day fell walking and they are still rearing to go, You can never, ever physically tire a working cocker.
Posted at the same time as Jane
-
If you purely want a pet , are able to walk it twice a day etc then I would get a Show, If however you are looking to work the dog, Gundog train it or at the very least do some sort of activity with it (Agility, fell walking etc) then a Working Cocker would be for you.
The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).
If you get one from the right breeding - speak to the breeder and have a look at their dogs - there's no reason why a show Cocker wouldn't suit you perfectly. I've seen plenty of show Cockers who are well up for long walks and plenty of activity, there are show Cockers on here who take part in agility, cani-cross etc. You'll get many varying opinions on this and although I realise that it is happening more and more and plenty of people have working Cockers as pets I still don't agree with them being bred and sold for the pet market. I think there is unfortunately almost a split appearing in working Cockers with 'pet' bred dogs and real true to type 'working' bred dogs.
Thank you! I have located a possible breeder not far from us; they are small and all pups are reserved before they are even born. I've checked some of the names in the lines of their dogs, and they're all from good places. So I think we will be fine there!
As well as the health testing and also really checking out the lines and dogs behind them and what kind of dogs they produce the question I would ask is that if they are producing really well bred, true to type working Cockers why would they sell them as pets and not as working dogs? And also is a pet home really going to be the best environment for that kind of dog?
-
I went for working cockers. I only considered Cocker spaniels in my breed search when i discovered the working strain as opposed to the show strain. I wanted a springer but my house is too small to take a springer. I like the high eared look you get with a working cocker.
Ill proberly get slatted for saying this but my research led me to believe there is less tendacy for genetic health problems in working strain. They're bred to be fit enough to work not to meet a cosmetic standard so as a result there is less incidence of joint and hip problems.I believe a dog should be bred to be fit for its original purpose and not for a cosmetic standard.
Also I found that the working strain were bred to be less noisy as working dogs need to remain quiet on shoots.
Obviously there are no guarentees with anything and each dog will be different.
I have 2 working cockers and they are brillient. Whatever the time of day i can take them out for a walk and they'll be up for it. I love their energy and creative little minds. However if i go more than a week without doing some sort of activity with them (obedience classes, agility, flyball) they can get mischivious and start making trouble round the house. If you have lots of time, energy and a sense of humour, they are brillient dogs.
-
Hi there,
I've had two show types and both have been more than capable of walking running like loonies all day. My first show type was exhausting, he rarely rested and was actually harder work (as in needed more training and stimulation and exercise) than a lot of the working cockers I know now. My current show cocker is a lot more laid back at home but as I've already said will run all day given the opportunity. He loves training and loves retrieving - particularly from water, he'd rather drown than leave a ball or stick floating away :005: But he's Mr Chill at home. He lives with my 5 yr old Weimaraner who's 3 times his size and needs a lot of exercise but he easily keeps up with her although he does struggle a little more if we're out on the bikes just because his legs aren't as long - which you'll have with a working cocker too, but it's not a real problem.
They do all vary but show types thrive in an active household in my experience - I think it's a little of what they're used to and how you want them to fit into your life. Most cockers can adapt the other way and be happy with a bit less exercise too if that's the life they have - but it's all within reason if you see what I mean!
From what you've said so far, a show type would easily provide you with enough 'fun' and stuff to do together - they are very different to Cavs in my experience ;)
There are no hard and fast rules about temperament and colour differences, my solid gold was a lot softer and more predictable than my blue roan - which if you believe folk lore is the wrong way around :lol2: SO it's best to meet the breeder and find out about the temperaments of the parent dogs do give you an idea of the pups character, but even then.... you never know for sure and a lot of it is how you bring them up :D!
Good luck with your search! :luv:
-
Ill proberly get slatted for saying this but my research led me to believe there is less tendacy for genetic health problems in working strain. They're bred to be fit enough to work not to meet a cosmetic standard so as a result there is less incidence of joint and hip problems.I believe a dog should be bred to be fit for its original purpose and not for a cosmetic standard.
Really? I'd love to see the research for that claim, if you still have it? Unfortunately the working community are way behind the show breeders when it comes to health testing but thankfully that is beginning to change and we are now seeing more working strain dogs being health screened. But until more working dogs are tested, it's impossible to come to any conclusions about their health status - you can certainly find poor hip scores recorded amongst the few working bred dogs to be scored so any complacency about their hip health may be somewhat misplaced.
Also the "cosmetic standard" you mention has been in existence since the 1900s and was drawn up by working men - it described a solid, compact dog with totally unexaggerated conformation and still does now. I think people who slate the breed standard often haven't even read it - if they did, they might be pleasantly surprised :D
-
Given whats said above, I have both and find that the show cockers do tend to settle after we get in from a walk, whereas Lexi will still be looking for something to do - looking out of the window, chasing the cats, trying to get one of the other dogs to play with her. However, out on walks I haven't noticed any difference in their stamina. I do agility with both my show types and they are very fit. The other difference would be the type of coats that they have. My working cocker Lexi only ever needs a bit of brush whereas my two show types take a lot more looking after, clipping and brushing (if I don't brush them everyday then I pay for it later with matts in their coats). But thats not the case with all working cockers as I do know of some working cockers that do have fluffy coats, but I would say that the majority of working cockers that I've seen have quite easy to care for smooth coats.
-
From the breeders' website, the info on one of their bitches says that she has a current clear eye test certificate, Optigen prcd_PRA tested clear, FN tested Clear, gonioscopy tested clear & a hip score of 7:6. Their stud dog has the same test results and a hip score of 4:6
Any comments on those test results? I'm not really sure how to interpret the numbers for the Hips test.
-
Everything you would like to see done, they have done, not sure about Hip scores but they are nice and low ;)
-
I've removed the direct quotes from the breeders' website as it's easy to identify them using this info (I did it within seconds using Google) We have to be careful talking about breeders by name or where they are easily identifiable so it's best to keep things general if poss ;)
Hip scores are added together to get a total score so 4:6 would give a hip score total of 10. The BVA advises that breeders choose parents "well below" the breed mean average score (which is 13 in Cockers as at November 2009) so anything below 13 is perfectly acceptable.
-
I've removed the quote from the breeders' website as it's easy to identify them using this info (I did it within seconds using Google) We have to be careful talking about breeders by name or where they are easily identifiable so it's best to keep things general if poss ;)
[/quote[
Oh sorry!! I didn't realise google would pick that up!
Hip scores are added together to get a total score so 4:6 would give a hip score total of 10. The BVA advises that breeders choose parents "well below" the breed mean average score (which is 13 in Cockers as at November 2009) so anything below 13 is perfectly acceptable.
Thanks for the explanation!!
-
I can still identify them by whats there, just thought I should let you know ;)
-
I can still identify them by whats there, just thought I should let you know ;)
Hopefully not anymore ;)
-
I can still identify them by whats there, just thought I should let you know ;)
Hopefully not anymore ;)
nope not now from a google search ;)
-
I have Ginny who is a WC. She is an extremely busy girl who needs LOTS of time but I am rewarded for the effort put in by a well behaved (hope I havent jinxed myself there :lol2:) dog who gives a lot of love to the family. I dont know what I did with my time before!Sorry Ive never had a SC so cant compare.
-
I can't compare the two as I've only ever had show types - but I've found SC have plenty of stamina. :D
I go running nearly every day with my dog, we also go hiking and mountain climbing and on the few days when the weather is so bad that we can't get out my dog is quite happy to snooze on the couch.
At home we do clicker training and our own version of agility - which he absolutely loves.
-
The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).
I don't want you to get the impression show-type dogs are lazy couch potatoes although some might be ;) There are plenty of show-type Cockers who love nothing more than long walks in the countryside and who also enjoy activities like agility. When I used to do more hiking than I do now (when I was fitter :D), I always used to take a couple of our show dogs with me & they were more than capable of doing long hikes but equally if I wasn't going out for a long walk, then they'd be equally happy with a shorter walk & then mooching around the garden with me. If a working Cocker would suit you better, then that's fine but just didn't want you to get the wrong idea about show-type dogs.
I agree. I have 5 show cockers and 5 less lazy dogs you could never meet. Harvey my Rescue is more docile than the other 4, but still pretty lively. I do Agility with Morgana who is by far the madest of my bunch and never stops when we're out. She is such a busy bee and when we go on walks we joke that she covers 3 or 4 times the amount of ground we do. She loves her Agility and is extremely keen. I have done a bit with one of my others as well and she also loves it although isn't quite as manic as Morgana. :shades:
Ill proberly get slatted for saying this but my research led me to believe there is less tendacy for genetic health problems in working strain. They're bred to be fit enough to work not to meet a cosmetic standard so as a result there is less incidence of joint and hip problems.I believe a dog should be bred to be fit for its original purpose and not for a cosmetic standard.
Really? I'd love to see the research for that claim, if you still have it? Unfortunately the working community are way behind the show breeders when it comes to health testing but thankfully that is beginning to change and we are now seeing more working strain dogs being health screened. But until more working dogs are tested, it's impossible to come to any conclusions about their health status - you can certainly find poor hip scores recorded amongst the few working bred dogs to be scored so any complacency about their hip health may be somewhat misplaced.
Also the "cosmetic standard" you mention has been in existence since the 1900s and was drawn up by working men - it described a solid, compact dog with totally unexaggerated conformation and still does now. I think people who slate the breed standard often haven't even read it - if they did, they might be pleasantly surprised :D
Again I couldn't agree more. :shades:
-
I think there is unfortunately almost a split appearing in working Cockers with 'pet' bred dogs and real true to type 'working' bred dogs.
When looking for my working cocker I didn’t find this split (perhaps its area dependant?) - Indeed as I wanted a pet I ruled out puppies not bread in the home which narrowed my options considerably. In the end I found a home bread pup but she is full worker and indeed a couple of her litter mates have gone to working homes. I don’t think I would be alone in thinking that a working type (perhaps with a little lower working drive/a little more laid back?) would be my ideal pet dog. Not everyone wants the high maintenance coat and look of a show type cocker. ph34r
If Pet bread workers were 1. Home reared and 2. came from Genetically tested stock I would be very much in favour - I don't see why it would damage the "true workers" in any way. One of the major problems with buying a worker as a pet is the difficulty in finding pups with Genetically tested parents. :-\
-
If pet owners acquire a worker cocker knowing what they are taking on and are prepared, that's fine but I do worry that some workers are being sold to unsuspecting owners who just want a cocker spaniel and do not realize the difference and breeders are not telling them.
As workers become more and more popular, disreputable breeders are taking advantage.
I have seen the consequences when working bred spaniels have been sold as pets and the owners have done nothing with the dogs and then wonder why their dogs are hyper.
Last year there was an incident on the canal near me when an uncontrolled spaniel dived in, pulled out a large cygnet and killed it in front of the owners who just stood screaming at it >:(
I am not being negative about the ownership of working cockers as pets or implying that all of them will cause a problem, I am just being negative about the rise in disreputable breeders who don't inform the buyers as to what they are purchasing.
I have two workers myself who are the light of my life - fun, happy and very very biddable and they are just pets. :D
-
Really? I'd love to see the research for that claim, if you still have it? Unfortunately the working community are way behind the show breeders when it comes to health testing but thankfully that is beginning to change and we are now seeing more working strain dogs being health screened. But until more working dogs are tested, it's impossible to come to any conclusions about their health status - you can certainly find poor hip scores recorded amongst the few working bred dogs to be scored so any complacency about their hip health may be somewhat misplaced.
Also the "cosmetic standard" you mention has been in existence since the 1900s and was drawn up by working men - it described a solid, compact dog with totally unexaggerated conformation and still does now. I think people who slate the breed standard often haven't even read it - if they did, they might be pleasantly surprised :D
When I say research i mean my personal research not published. My friend took her lab to have major hip op due to hip dysplacer. He was going in to see a specialist I noticed a springer in the waiting room so decided to enquire as to what breeds they see the most often coming in for treatment. Both the vet and the nurse agreed labs were the most frequent and that spaniels dont have too much of a problem if the parents are hip scored but he did say that he very very rarely see working cockers coming through his door.
With regards the cosmetic standard Im very interested tto know why the division came about in cockers and why they are now so far removed. Can anyone here tell me about the history of it all?
If im honest i prefer the look of a working cocker as I like the high shorter ears but I must admit i presumed the difference came about due to the cosmetic preference, amoungst the show strain for big ears and the more domey head. Is this not the case? My presumtion came about because logic tells me that if the show strain werent being bred meet cosmetic standards why is there the division there is today? Why are the 2 strains so cosmetically different? Or is it that the working strain have evolved as they are now being used for retervial as well as flushing, leaving the show strain still to the old "design"?
Sorry for my ignorance on this subject, I know as a admirer and owner of cocker spaniels i should know my history. ph34r
-
If you purely want a pet , are able to walk it twice a day etc then I would get a Show, If however you are looking to work the dog, Gundog train it or at the very least do some sort of activity with it (Agility, fell walking etc) then a Working Cocker would be for you.
The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).
We have show and working cockers. Both our show cockers enjoy long walks and games, the difference between them and the worker, is that if one day they have a shorter walk its fine, if Fizzy our worker doesn't have enough exercise / stimulation (we've just finished two weeks house rest as she broke a toe ::)) then we really know about it!
Buddy, our almost 10 year old show cocker enjoyed a three hour walk in the fells of the Lake District just last weekend...
Fizzy (6 year old worker) enjoyed walking all 84 miles of Hadrian's Wall in 6 days last summer..... and would like to know when we're going again please!
One final comment, with the workers especially, you'll not tire them out physically. You have to keep them mentally stimulated by training, agility, flyball or gundog training. They're busy dogs with a brain and if you don't direct what they use it on, then its probably your house that will suffer! ;)
-
I think there is unfortunately almost a split appearing in working Cockers with 'pet' bred dogs and real true to type 'working' bred dogs.
I don’t think I would be alone in thinking that a working type (perhaps with a little lower working drive/a little more laid back?) would be my ideal pet dog. Not everyone wants the high maintenance coat and look of a show type cocker. ph34r
If Pet bread workers were 1. Home reared and 2. came from Genetically tested stock I would be very much in favour - I don't see why it would damage the "true workers" in any way. One of the major problems with buying a worker as a pet is the difficulty in finding pups with Genetically tested parents. :-\
I really hope I can explain this properly without being lynched or offending anyone but here goes ph34r
There are over 200 of breeds out there already and 271,719 pups were registered with the kennel club in 2008 :o thats obviously not counting all the un registered pups born :'(
so we have a situation in this country where way too many dogs are being bred already we really dont need to change a WORKING bred to fit a pet market.
Say it wouldnt damage true workers and it would be possible to split the bred into pet/worker and bred pet dogs with lower drive/more laid back what would be the possible reason in bringing yet more pet dogs into the world when there are so many already. So people who want a working cocker but without the traits that make it a working cocker can have a watered down version as a pet :huh:.
say someone decided to bred for the pet market and and took two really laid back pet dogs and mated them, three pups are really laid back, three have really high drives what happens to those three :huh:
Working people wont want them because there not docked and the parents aren't proven workers, people wanting a pet cant handle them so do we cull them :huh:
At the moment what happens is they go to pet homes and get handed into rescue with a truck load of problems at a later date.
Its a fact that sinse workers have became a popular pet more and more have ended up in rescue, the large majority of workers that go to rescue are ones from pet homes.
If people choose to research the breed as it is a WORKING dog, not a crappy watered down version and decide they are going to do what it takes to meet that dogs needs in a pet home, fine there are some very happy workers on here in pet homes because there owners work their butts off to keep them happy. BUT no way sould the breed be changed to fit this market.
-
I think there is unfortunately almost a split appearing in working Cockers with 'pet' bred dogs and real true to type 'working' bred dogs.
I don’t think I would be alone in thinking that a working type (perhaps with a little lower working drive/a little more laid back?) would be my ideal pet dog. Not everyone wants the high maintenance coat and look of a show type cocker. ph34r
If Pet bread workers were 1. Home reared and 2. came from Genetically tested stock I would be very much in favour - I don't see why it would damage the "true workers" in any way. One of the major problems with buying a worker as a pet is the difficulty in finding pups with Genetically tested parents. :-\
I really hope I can explain this properly without being lynched or offending anyone but here goes ph34r
There are over 200 of breeds out there already and 271,719 pups were registered with the kennel club in 2008 :o thats obviously not counting all the un registered pups born :'(
so we have a situation in this country where way too many dogs are being bred already we really don't need to change a WORKING bred to fit a pet market.
Say it wouldn't damage true workers and it would be possible to split the bred into pet/worker and bred pet dogs with lower drive/more laid back what would be the possible reason in bringing yet more pet dogs into the world when there are so many already. So people who want a working cocker but without the traits that make it a working cocker can have a watered down version as a pet :huh:.
say someone decided to bred for the pet market and and took two really laid back pet dogs and mated them, three pups are really laid back, three have really high drives what happens to those three :huh:
Working people wont want them because there not docked and the parents aren't proven workers, people wanting a pet cant handle them so do we cull them :huh:
At the moment what happens is they go to pet homes and get handed into rescue with a truck load of problems at a later date.
Its a fact that sinse workers have became a popular pet more and more have ended up in rescue, the large majority of workers that go to rescue are ones from pet homes.
If people choose to research the breed as it is a WORKING dog, not a crappy watered down version and decide they are going to do what it takes to meet that dogs needs in a pet home, fine there are some very happy workers on here in pet homes because there owners work their butts off to keep them happy. BUT no way sould the breed be changed to fit this market.
I totally agree with the sentiment that working breeds should be left alone. The problem is that we bred dogs for hundreds of years for various purposes and those purpose have then disappeared and we have been left with dogs that as pets can be demanding at best and we wonder why. How many people bought Dalmatians after seeing the Disney film without a clue they were originally bred to run alongside horse drawn carriages. How many have been discarded after owners realised they needed more exercise than they could give. Working Cockers have a high drive for a purpose, but that is not saying they can't make great pets but to people who understand their needs and give that stimulation in some form. The answer is surely not to water down working breeds but to choose a dog that suits an individuals lifestyle and not being so obsessed by the physical appearance.
-
I think I agree with Crazy Cocker Gang - the working lines shouldn't be altered to adapt a dog to a pet market, but I do think that more Working Cocker breeders should perhaps be more open to some of their pups going to suitable pet homes. Surely not every pup which is bred from good working parents is going to be a good worker in and of itself? What happens to these dogs if they don't make the grade at working?
I think the reason there are so many workers in rescue (coming from pet homes) is because a lot of pet homes don't know they are getting a worker. We didn't (Honey is 3/4 Working, but her Dam looked entirely Show - turns out she was half and half), but we adapted and made sure we met her needs.
I think it's one of these viscious circles at the minute - it can take so very long for someone to get a well bred pup from a reputable breeder (whether this is a show cocker or a working cocker), and for working pups a lot of breeders wouldn't entertain a non-working home. So those people who really want a pup, but are frustrated at the wait, will go to those less reputable breeders, who don't tell them what kind of Cocker they are getting, and don't give good back up. These pups are most likely to end up in rescue... :-\
If there were more well bred pups available, I think most people would want the well bred pup - but then there would be a huge surplus of the poorly bred pups, as no-one would need to go to those breeders.
I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding for the pet market, as long as the dogs you are breeding are good examples of that breed. There are very good breeders of show cockers who don't expect that their pups are all going to be at Crufts next year, but they still choose their matings carefully to ensure they would meet show standard, and with relevant health tests and temperament considerations.
I know it's a very emotive subject, and I don't expect people to agree with me, but the way I see it is that while only the very very best are responsibly bred from, there is going to be more demand for the badly bred pup... whereas if more of the good are responsibly bred from, the demand for the badly bred pup will go down... maybe it's idealistic... I'm glad I'm not a breeder!!! :D
Going back to the OP.
I think you could probably give either strain of Cocker a good active home... as others have said, Workers don't just need the physical activity, but a lot of mental stimulation... If you are prepared for this, there's no reason why you shouldn't consider a Working Cocker. However as others have said, Show Cockers can keep going for just as long.... :D
If I was getting another puppy at this minute, I would get a show cocker, mainly because I couldn't take the risk of getting a worker who had more stamina than Honey. I would love a (pure) worker in the future, but would make sure I could devote sufficient time to training so that I could be confident of meeting their needs....
-
Speaking from experience I would agree show cockers are no slouches :005: Maggie would run all day given the chance, but she is equally happy to just relax around the house when there's the chance to do so. I specifically chose a show cocker because I knew I wouldn't have the time to devote in keeping a working cocker properly stimulated and exercised to be happy. I have since met a few people who have perhaps wrongly chosen the working cocker route only to find that they are really struggling to keep up with the dogs demands. I even spoke to one lady who had a working cocker tiny puppy but had no idea what the difference was, I can see that may well be where the problems with the rise in working cockers in rescue centres comes from.
-
The thing is, what we want is somewhere between the two. Yes, we want a dog that is a pet, but also one that is active and loves long walks and games (we live two miles from the coast, and two miles from the New Forest, and we're often out and about at either, but especially the Forest).
I don't want you to get the impression show-type dogs are lazy couch potatoes although some might be ;) There are plenty of show-type Cockers who love nothing more than long walks in the countryside and who also enjoy activities like agility. When I used to do more hiking than I do now (when I was fitter :D), I always used to take a couple of our show dogs with me & they were more than capable of doing long hikes but equally if I wasn't going out for a long walk, then they'd be equally happy with a shorter walk & then mooching around the garden with me. If a working Cocker would suit you better, then that's fine but just didn't want you to get the wrong idea about show-type dogs.
My 2 are show types and I can go walking all day with them (ie, out for 6-8 hours; and they would still keep walking if I let them) and one is totally blind but she will still walk long distances. I don't have a car so when I've had an agility/training lession they've had to walk at least an hour there and probably more back depending on which route I go back. I know lots of other show type dogs who do this as well (even rescues who may not have had huge walks before then some of whom who have come from puppy farms and spent their early years in a shed the whole time). However, my two are happy with much shorter walks some days as well. My 2 are cracking characters as well.
-
So far, I am still leaning towards a Working Cocker, as I slightly prefer the look and the coat, and my husband feels that, providing we get the puppy from genetically tested stock, he will be likely to be healthier than a show cocker. Is he right on that? His mother used to breed blue roans many years ago, and so many of them had problems, so that is likely to be influencing him (but that was also long before genetic testing).
Even though I am primarily wanting my pup-to-be as a pet, I am home most of the day (I work part-time, and even if I am at work, my husband is home as he is an artist and works from home), so I was thinking lots of walks and games and company would be likely to provide enough stimulation - am I thinking the right way on this?
-
I think there is unfortunately almost a split appearing in working Cockers with 'pet' bred dogs and real true to type 'working' bred dogs.
I don’t think I would be alone in thinking that a working type (perhaps with a little lower working drive/a little more laid back?) would be my ideal pet dog. Not everyone wants the high maintenance coat and look of a show type cocker. ph34r
If Pet bread workers were 1. Home reared and 2. came from Genetically tested stock I would be very much in favour - I don't see why it would damage the "true workers" in any way. One of the major problems with buying a worker as a pet is the difficulty in finding pups with Genetically tested parents. :-\
Its a fact that sinse workers have became a popular pet more and more have ended up in rescue, the large majority of workers that go to rescue are ones from pet homes.
If people choose to research the breed as it is a WORKING dog, not a crappy watered down version and decide they are going to do what it takes to meet that dogs needs in a pet home, fine there are some very happy workers on here in pet homes because there owners work their butts off to keep them happy. BUT no way sould the breed be changed to fit this market.
I completely and utterly agree with everything Jo has said here, I meant to reply to this last night and forgot to come back to it.
When I talked about a 'split' in working Cockers I was still referring to all these dogs being sold as 'full workers', they're not crosses of any kind, but I meant working Cockers which are being bred out of dogs of no proven working ability and indifferent pedigree. You only have to look on any free ad site to see litter after litter bred out of pet bitches who have never heard gunshot in their lives, and on a personal level I've lost count of the number of people who have asked me if they can use Rodaidh as a stud on their pet bitches.
A working Cocker with little or no working drive to my mind is not a working Cocker - as Jo says it's a watered down, diluted version of what the strain should be - and breeding dogs like this is doing the strain no favours. Unfortunately people often find it difficult to look at the bigger picture of what's best for the breed/strain as a whole rather than just their own preferences.
I think I agree with Crazy Cocker Gang - the working lines shouldn't be altered to adapt a dog to a pet market, but I do think that more Working Cocker breeders should perhaps be more open to some of their pups going to suitable pet homes. Surely not every pup which is bred from good working parents is going to be a good worker in and of itself? What happens to these dogs if they don't make the grade at working?
That in itself is fine, I don't have a problem with people who've done the research and know what they're getting buying a well-bred working Cocker if they're prepared to meet its needs, it's the fact that litters are being indiscriminately bred purely for the pet market and the idea of some diluted version of the strain arising from this because people want them as pets because of the way they look/their coats are easier to take care of that I don't agree with. The last reason why anyone should buy a working strain dog is because of the way it looks.
-
So far, I am still leaning towards a Working Cocker, as I slightly prefer the look and the coat, and my husband feels that, providing we get the puppy from genetically tested stock, he will be likely to be healthier than a show cocker. Is he right on that?
No there's no evidence that a responsibly bred working Cocker from genetically tested stock will be healthier than a responsibly bred show type Cocker also from genetically tested stock. If this evidence does exist, then I'd love to see it :D
-
If people want to get a working bred dog for the right reasons after having done the research and deciding that that dog will fit best with their lifestyle and they're prepared to put in the effort to keep the dog satisfied and maybe try some sort of activity such as gundog training, agility etc. then fine, but going for a working strain dog on the basis of how they look is not the right criteria on which to base the decision.
I hear what you're saying, but, when getting a dog, any dog, don't many (most?) of us choose a dog based on how it looks, because we like the way it looks?
I appreciate that choosing a Working Cocker should not be done solely for its looks, but I'm not doing that. I'm looking at temperament as well.
-
Please don't base your decision on the length of the coat, just remember that you can clip a show type's coat but you can't remove a working cocker's drive :blink:.
-
If people want to get a working bred dog for the right reasons after having done the research and deciding that that dog will fit best with their lifestyle and they're prepared to put in the effort to keep the dog satisfied and maybe try some sort of activity such as gundog training, agility etc. then fine, but going for a working strain dog on the basis of how they look is not the right criteria on which to base the decision.
I hear what you're saying, but, when getting a dog, any dog, don't many (most?) of us choose a dog based on how it looks, because we like the way it looks?
and that is one of the main reason so many dogs end up in rescue in this country :'(
People buy a cute pup they like the look of with no idea how they are going to meet that dogs need when its older
-
and that is one of the main reason so many dogs end up in rescue in this country :'(
People buy a cute pup they like the look of with no idea how they are going to meet that dogs need when its older
Ummmm, no, I am not talking about the look of a "cute pup", I am talking about liking the look of the adult dog.
I am beginning to wish I hadn't posted this thread.
-
If people want to get a working bred dog for the right reasons after having done the research and deciding that that dog will fit best with their lifestyle and they're prepared to put in the effort to keep the dog satisfied and maybe try some sort of activity such as gundog training, agility etc. then fine, but going for a working strain dog on the basis of how they look is not the right criteria on which to base the decision.
I hear what you're saying, but, when getting a dog, any dog, don't many (most?) of us choose a dog based on how it looks, because we like the way it looks?
I appreciate that choosing a Working Cocker should not be done solely for its looks, but I'm not doing that. I'm looking at temperament as well.
Yes people like to like the way their dog looks but particularly with working strain dogs there really should be so much more to it than that. When I decided to get working Cockers looks didn't really come into it, if that had been the case I'd probably have Irish Setters because I think they are absolutely beautiful. I chose working Cockers because I wanted dogs to train to work and having seen them in action, talked to some owners/trainers and done my research I decided that they were suitable for me and vice versa. Obviously people like to like the way their dog looks but when deciding to buy a working strain dog then looks really should be the last consideration, it's about the least important element of these dogs - suitability to lifestyle and what you want the dog for is much, much more important. I like Cayley's quote that's just been added, I think it's quite appropriate.
-
Please don't base your decision on the length of the coat, just remember that you can clip a show type's coat but you can't remove a working cocker's drive :blink:.
I wouldn't be basing my decision on the length of the coat.
And a working cocker's drive is one reason that I'd want one - so why would I want to remove it?
<sigh>
-
and that is one of the main reason so many dogs end up in rescue in this country :'(
People buy a cute pup they like the look of with no idea how they are going to meet that dogs need when its older
Ummmm, no, I am not talking about the look of a "cute pup", I am talking about liking the look of the adult dog.
I am beginning to wish I hadn't posted this thread.
No of course look comes into it - The first thing that attracted me to cockers was the 'look' of them... but I looked after one (a show type) for a while before I got my own so was sure I could handle their energy and mischievous streak. I have a Weimaraner as well and I love the look of Weims but also knew enough about them to know it really suited our active life style and I love the challenge of training and living with gundog type dogs - with all the problems and rewards it brings. I'm not very good at other types of dogs tbh :lol: I also absolutely love the look of English Bull Terriers but I KNOW I'd find them a frustrating breed to live with and they wouldn't suit us.
Dealing with a dog with a high hunt drive (as all gundogs and in particular working bred strains can have) can be extremely hard work and give you years of frustration.. my Weim is a rescue (there isn't a working/show split for Weims but she comes from working parents and has a high hunt drive) that I took on aged 2 from a home that decided that she didn't really suit their life style afterall. They had done all the usual puppy classes with her but hadn't put the time into exposing her to enough of what she was bred to do or channeling her working instincts. So she hit 2 years old as a big fast inexperienced dog with a very strong hunt drive and was totally out of control - I lost her every walk for up to 40 mins despite constant training, stimulation and help from anyone that would give it to me :lol: Even very experienced owners can struggle with very high hunt drive gun dogs - even when they own them from being a pup.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is whilst look is a factor, you are looking at taking on a hunting breed which can be a very big issue if you want to focus on having fun & long walks rather than channeling their instincts all the time - hope that makes a bit more sense?
My Weim is 5 now and a very wonderful obedient dog but I have to be one step ahead of her all the time and train her every day still, both my show type cockers have had periods of deaf bogging off after rabbits etc but both were a bit less obsessive about it than the dog with the very high hunt drive - which is something you are likely to get in a working cocker...
Please don't think people are having a pop at you, lots of the people advising you own workers and have been involved in rescuing workers that ended up in pet homes and couldn't be managed effectively so it's advice given with very good intent I promise :luv:
-
Ummmm, no, I am not talking about the look of a "cute pup", I am talking about liking the look of the adult dog.
I am beginning to wish I hadn't posted this thread.
I think i understand what your getting out. I was attracted to getting a working cocker as I liked the look and when I start doing serious research into them I realised they were perfect for us, in terms of moulting, working drive, energy levels, inteligance, and size ect.
If its what you want and your sure you know what your letting youself in for then go for it. Lots of people advised me not to get a working cocker saying Id never keep up and it would drive me insane, but it was absolutely the right thing for us as I went into it with my eyes open. If you;ve done your research into all aspects of the breed and your happy that its the right dog for you then theres no reason why you shouldnt go for it. :D
-
Please don't think people are having a pop at you, lots of the people advising you own workers and have been involved in rescuing workers that ended up in pet homes and couldn't be managed effectively so it's advice given with very good intent I promise :luv:
That is true, COL is a responsible, educational site, it's here to educate people about the breed. It would not be responsible for us to blindly tell people what they want to hear all the time or agree with everything that everyone says, there are places where you can find that but COL will always try to make people look at the bigger picture and there are a lot of very experienced people on here who do know what they're talking about, nobody is arguing or disagreeing just for the sake of it, people speak from experience. If by putting across the other viewpoint it makes one person stop and think very carefully and if maybe one less dog ends up going to an unsuitable home then it's doing its job (I'm not just referring to the OP here, a lot of new members may read this thread and a lot of non-members read threads on COL to get information as well). Nobody is having a go but just trying to show the bigger picture as everyone on here cares deeply about the breed. Plus many members have been around for a while and/or are involved in rescue, and as Hannah says have seen first hand what happens (and dealt with the aftermath) when working Cockers have been in unsuitable homes or homes that weren't prepared for what they were getting.
-
I cant get involved in the whole health side of this issue and tbh I originally looked at the litter I got Fred from as I knew I liked the look of COCKERs- We got Fred did a little research-found this place and quickly found out how lucky we were with our little laid bak chap as some of the WORKER stories would worry you hairless!! Needless to say we make more effort to ensure that we do enough to keep him happy and his (teeny tiny)little mind active and having a worker although not originally planned has suited us down to the ground so much so that we now have a second worker and I cant imagine life without them.
Ooops am rambling away again- good luck with your research and search for a pup and whatever route you decide to go down there are loads of owners on here to help you.
-
there was a question previously on this thread about appearance and evolving....the workers look evolved to be "fit for purpose" ie long feathered ears that swoosh the scent around their noses, small compact bodies to get through and under cover, deep strong chests for stamina, square muzzles for picking up birds - with the 'watered down' pet versions in years to come where the dog has no need to be fit for it's original purpose it will be interesting to see how the look evolves - rangier leggier versions with shorter and shorter ears and snipey muzzles? :dunno: This will further accentuate the split (within the split) in the breed
Along with temperament and health I always look at lines - there are some lines I wouldn't touch with a barge pole and some I really would love pups from :luv:
It seems you've found a breeder that is happy to sell to the pet market and you've found the type you want - I wish you well with it :D
-
If you;ve done your research into all aspects of the breed and your happy that its the right dog for you then theres no reason why you shouldnt go for it. :D
Thank you.
I'm not rushing into anything - as I said in my OP the plan is to get a cocker in the next year or so.
My dearly best beloved CKC boy is in the final stages of Congestive Heart Failure, and whilst he survived a major crisis in January (hospitalised for 4 days, on serious round the clock drugs and oxygen) and is stable at the moment, his cardiologist says he has weeks, months or possibly up to a year at the absolute maximum. (I joined COL when he was admitted, when I was in shock and had even lost my appetite - totally unknown for me). In order to cope with the impending extreme distress that my family and I will face when he goes, I am trying to focus on moving on, developing a passion for my next dog, wanting to have another canine companion after Flinty passes (I grew up with dogs, have had dogs most of my married life, and function far better with one than without one) yet one that is totally different from him and who will give me a new outlook and zest for life, and perhaps some new interests too. My 16yo daughter is doing her AS levels this year, and A2s next year. Originally I was hoping beyond all hope that he could possibly last till she'd taken all her A2s, but right now we will be lucky if he is around for her ASs. My son is 20yo, in his final year at Uni, and will cope better, my husband will be fine too - it's my daughter and me who will be affected the most.
So, in an attempt to fully accept the current situation, and to see past the sadness we will be facing when he goes, I am trying to look ahead, to look forward. (I originally registered on this forum the day that Flinty was admitted to the veterinary hospital)
My next step will be to visit a couple of breeders (show and working) and meet the dogs. I've located a working cocker breeder that I think I like, but not yet a show cocker breeder. I'd like to find another working cocker breeder too, so that I can compare the two. I've narrowed down the working colours that I like; not yet the show cocker colours. When I've done that, I can look for breeders to visit.
-
Good luck with your search - and whatever your decision it certainly sounds like you're more than prepared to do whatever you need to make you next dog a happy one :) Here's hoping that your current little fella can go on for a long time yet :luv:
-
My next step will be to visit a couple of breeders (show and working) and meet the dogs. I've located a working cocker breeder that I think I like, but not yet a show cocker breeder. I'd like to find another working cocker breeder too, so that I can compare the two. I've narrowed down the working colours that I like; not yet the show cocker colours. When I've done that, I can look for breeders to visit.
I don't know where you're based in the country, but maybe you could come along to one of the meet ups and that way meet lots of cockers, both show and workers and see them all in action! ;) :blink:
-
I'm on the Hampshire/Dorset border, so, depending on where the meet is, that might be possible. Shame I'm too late for the Fritham one, that would definitely have been reachable for me.
-
Have to say this thread has been very intersting to read, We have show and Workers, and TBH my laziest dog is my older girl willow who by definition is the ideal bred working cocker, being from extremely sound working lines and coming from a large shooting estate. The point is there is no guarentee from any breeder that your dog will turn out to be Lazy or hyper, family situations May play a contributing role in this as I have noticed, especially families with younger children as kids can wind any dog up and the dog will only react to his/her surroundings and enviroment, be it working or show bred.
In an ideal world dog breeding would be Black and white but society changes everyday and so do its demands, Its all very well that working cockers should only be bred by working kennels with a view to hunt over the winter months and this may have suited the status quo for many generations but on the whole we now do more with our dogs now than we used to I.E agility, flyball, Canix etc and wether you think its positive or Destructive for the future of the Breed our dogs have to adapt to what we as a society need from them. We never know what is around the corner and remember what happened to thousands of poor Fox hounds when the hunting ban came in, society can be so fickle and its these actions that can be the downfall of any breed as has happened in the past.
Conformity is paramount to any breed be it working or Show, this is probably why we have had problems in the past with certain breeders putting god knows what into the lines, to the point where we dont even know if the modern working cocker is actually a cocker at all now. Show Cockers can be just as robust as the working side given the opportunity and while they may not have that scenting drive they are just as agile and fit. Many working breeders do scoff at show people at times but TBH they can actually learn alot from many a good show owner/breeder.
-
Conformity is paramount to any breed be it working or Show, this is probably why we have had problems in the past with certain breeders putting god knows what into the lines, to the point where we dont even know if the modern working cocker is actually a cocker at all now.
that may be true of SOME lines John which are likely to be the ones I avoid like the plague and which I despair of :-\
Personally I think that breeders should include conformation to at least some aspects of the cocker breed standard as one of their pre-requisites for breeding - I don't see the point of breeding from working cockers that don't even look like spaniels >:(
-
FWIW, as part of my research I fully intend to look into the agility/flyball aspect. I had never heard of flyball before, and would have to be trained myself before teaching a dog - but it does look interesting and exciting, and it looks like it would be a good thing for both my and any prospective doggie that I get. I don't know if there are any flyball training classes in my area, but will definitely be looking into it. There are agility classes, and I will probably be phoning a couple to ask if I can come and observe sometime.
-
And a working cocker's drive is one reason that I'd want one - so why would I want to remove it?
I'm just wondering why you'd want a working cocker's drive if you don't intend to go hunting with him?
That drive can be pretty hard to handle at times.
I don't think looks come into it much as you will love your dog and the way he looks, whatever you choose. Just my opinion and all the best with whatever you choose. You've certainly done your research - far more than I ever did.
As for agility, I've just found out this morning who the culprit was jumping up on the kitchen counter and nosing open the breadbin - yup, our show cocker. >:D
-
I'm just wondering why you'd want a working cocker's drive if you don't intend to go hunting with him?
So in your opinion the only way of properly using a working cocker's drive is to take him/her hunting?
Does that not mean then that their drive only gets used in part of autumn and winter (during the hunting season)?
-
I'm just wondering why you'd want a working cocker's drive if you don't intend to go hunting with him?
So in your opinion the only way of properly using a working cocker's drive is to take him/her hunting?
Does that not mean then that their drive only gets used in part of autumn and winter (during the hunting season)?
mine get's trained all year round :dunno:
-
mine get's trained all year round :dunno:
What does that training involve?
-
mine get's trained all year round :dunno:
What does that training involve?
all aspects of general gundog training - obedience, retrieving, whistle training etc
BTW I've done agility with my working cocker - he enjoyed it to a point but it felt like he was doing it for me. The difference between his demeanour doing agility and his sheer love of working is undeniable in his case.
-
I'm just wondering why you'd want a working cocker's drive if you don't intend to go hunting with him?
So in your opinion the only way of properly using a working cocker's drive is to take him/her hunting?
Does that not mean then that their drive only gets used in part of autumn and winter (during the hunting season)?
mine get's trained all year round :dunno:
As do mine, we use the 'off' season to work on anything that cropped up during the shooting season, the spring/summer is when field tests and scurries are held and they also go pigeon and rabbit shooting.
-
all aspects of general gundog training - obedience, retrieving, whistle training etc
But can this not be done without actually hunting? The kind of thing you mention isn't just for gundog training, surely, but would form part of normal dog training?
-
all aspects of general gundog training - obedience, retrieving, whistle training etc
But can this not be done without actually hunting? The kind of thing you mention isn't just for gundog training, surely, but would form part of normal dog training?
I don't know what your idea of 'normal' training is TBH and it just seems that this is going around in circles. I'm not going to spend hours typing out exactly what I do with my dog as this is becoming pointless - have you purchased and read any gundog training books?
there are a couple mentioned here that would be worth you reading.
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=65868.0 (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=65868.0)
FWIW there is a LOT more to good gundog training than 'normal' training and if you're intent on buying a working breed it may be an idea to understand the job they were actually intended for - that's only fair to the breed :-\
You've clearly made up your mind and just want to argue every point the people that own 'working' working cockers make so I'll bow out of this thread now.
-
I'll close this now as it seems the right time to put this thread to bed. The OP is of course welcome to ask any further specific questions about gundog training on our Working Board HERE (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?board=129.0)