CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Mel on April 09, 2010, 02:54:32 AM
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I am in a very low place with Tali. He is going through the usual biting which is terribly painful as he is drawing blood quite a bit. I know it's normal but as hels growing he's just biting harder and currently none of the good advice is working. I'm sure it will in time.
I am worried though as my brother plays quite hard with him and get's him very wound up and then does all the wrong things when he bites, like pinning him down and then saying things like "right, this has to stop he's biting too hard and drawing blood now. You have got to get some sort of punishment to stop this behaviour". He also stays far too late and he has only been gone 15 minutes and now Tali is wide awake on a major mad fit of destruction. Tali also is behaving a bit like haygars puppy, with the lunging, especially if you say no, and he growls and makes high pitvhed snarling noises which I don't like to hear.
He's really manic at the moment and I am very worried he has been spoilt and I won't have a well balanced dog. I feel like a failure because I know better about training dogs and feel it's all gone wrong. My brother is also losing interest in him due to the biting.
On the plus side he got so bad I put him in his crate and had it in almost complete darkness while we watched a film, and after 20 minutes whining Tali settled down and went to sleep.
Sorry, just low at the mo with many things.
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Hi Mel
The COL night shift here!
We have all been there to some extent. Try not to worry. :-*
Especially, don't panic. It is very hard to "spoil" a dog, and it is still early days anyway so you have loads of time to get back on track.
Firstly, keep on doing all the "right" things to stop him biting. It does work, but consistency and patience are essential.
However a major thing you do need to address is your brother and his behaviour in your home. You need to be very firm with him and let him know what is and is not acceptable behaviour towards Tali. Explain why and what you are doing to address the problems he can see (and may be contributing to!).
When Tali gets all manic, I would suggest playing with him for a while. But with your rules, not his. Then after a reasonable time, you call a halt to it all and start initiating some settling routines so that he gets the message.
It is great that he copes with the crate. Buddy never has, and only ever settled in it in our bedroom, with us. Not what we had planned!
Have you tried time-out? It's a long time ago, but we found a small, safe area for Buddy where he could do no harm to himself or to our property (our small hall was perfect. Don't use the crate!). Then when he got a bit out of hand we would say "time out" once. Then if he didn't respond we put him out in the hall. No fuss, no talking, just a pick up and out. After about 2 minutes, if he was quiet even for a second, we would get him back into the room. If he started up again we did exactly the same. At first it was a bit like a yo-yo, we didn't get to sit down for ages as he just played up so much. Sometimes we left him out there a bit longer. Up to about 5 minutes. But it's pointless trying to do longer than that. He did eventually get the idea. And before long, just the words were enough to get him to stop. I got into a bit of trouble on here, but we stuck a bit of wood over the door so that he didn't destroy it scratching to get back in. I didn't feel we could control that behaviour at the same time as working on the biting etc.
Don't beat yourself up. but do resolve to stick to a good training routine and stick to it. And DON't allow your brother to bully you.
(((HUGS)))
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Gracie was also a manic biter! I take her to work with me every day and some of the men who came to the office would play rough with her and encourage the biting which worried me (with the various people coming and going I soon found that my requests not to encourage the biting or to give tid bits were being ignored by some which is the one downside to having her come to work with me). However, she is now 9 months old and rarely bites - she simply grew out of it! The only time she does put any pressure on with her teeth now is when someone comes into the office and plays rough with her - with everyone else she might use her mouth in play but she has learnt bite inhibition and does not bite down even when she gets very excited.
Hopefully you willl have more luck in persuading your brother to stop encouraging the biting! The only other comment I would make is that when the men at work played rough with her they did know that if she bit them too hard they could not tell her off and certainly could not pin her down - I told them that if they refused to listen to me and continued to play rough with Grace then they had to accept being bitten!
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Seems to me that one of the best things to happen would be your brother completely losing interest in her and not getting involved at all.
You cant play rough with a puppy and then expect to punish them when they bite,its all part of the game to them. Just take your time and before you know it the razor teeth will have gone and the biting will stop.
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I agree with John's comments regarding your brother. ;)
Honestly things will get better...it sounds like he is just being a normal pupster. :shades:
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Hi, I know exactly were you are coming from, Selby now 19 weeks is a nightmare for biting and to be honest I have followed every little bit of information on how to stop the biting that has been posted on here to the last letter and have also been consitant and so has OH, but still the biting persists and the manic behaviour, I have had dogs all my life and different breeds and also dogs from rescue centres, but I must confess I have never never come across anything like this or even remotely like this biting and manic behaviour all my other pups have learnt that humans dint like pups that bite quicker than this. I have a friend over here with a cocker and she said hers didn't take this long to train but I know every dog is different as is every child. OH takes him out in the morning for 20 Min's I take him mid pm for 20 Min's and he goes out in the evening again, i do training with him about 3/4 times a day and also play with him on my terms!! or try to.
We love Selby soooo much and am desperate for some normal pup behaviour, its the biting and growling and hanging off your clothes that is difficult.
So hang in there and am sure with love and time things will improve (I hope) A big hug for you.
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Mel
I know exactly how you feel. Coco (17 weeks) is a biter too and I've tried everything to get her to stop! The only thing that has the slightest impact is putting her (or me) out into the hall although it takes a few trips for her to cotton on. I'm going to keep that up and hopefully next time she's in a bitey mood she might remember a bit quicker (I've only left her out for a few seconds so will try a bit longer as Annette suggested).
My 8 year old daughter Mia also got growled and snapped at in quite an aggressive way. I don't think Coco is a naturally aggressive dog but it did worry me A LOT!! As per suggestions on here, we've stopped playing on the floor with Coco and when she gets super excited we stop the game. Mia's been away on holiday this week so am interested to see how Coco will respond after having a week of mummy to herself!!
Good Luck and if all else fails...a pair of thick gloves!!!
Jayney x
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Thanks for the replies. Yes I agree John, he seems to thing Tali is not a very nice dog because of it. He takes it personally and I think I know remember why he didn't bond with Keli beause of the biting. He believes in the man is the master thing and growls at him to get him to stop stuff which doesn't work. It's like he thinks that the dog will respond to him because it's him, not through the training all puppies need.
Tali is a lovely dog and actually loves nothing more than frozen carrots no doubt because his teeth ache.
My brother means well but will not listen. I think he thinks he has a special rapport with animals and they will do amazing things with him. LOL.
I usually put Tali in the hall and I sit in my bedroom for a sort of time out when he bites me too much but I confess I need to go and get 2 more baby gates today as I can't put him out of the lounge without him getting back in.
Thank you all for the reassurance and sorry I seem like a failure.
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I don't think anyone here thinks you seem like a failure at all - the only person who thinks that is yourself, and thats natural, we're all always too hard on ourselves. Think the biggest battle you have here is with your brother as others have said, you know what you need to do with Tali, but if you're brother is undoing all that when he's around its just very confusing for the little fella... I know how hard it can be to have awkward conversations with members of the family, they always assume they know better, but at the end of the day, Tali is your pupster and your brother needs to respect the boundaries that you put around the interaction he has with Tali. Once Tali has the whole bite inhibition thing sussed then maybe your brother can play tug type games with him using a proper tug toy (not his hand which I suspect is what he might be using now :-\).... Good luck and don't be so hard on yourself!!! :bigarmhug:
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It wasn't so extreme, but we had a similar problem with our friend, who would encourage Honey to attack his gloves etc, and thoguht the way to ensure you didn't have a guardy dog was to take things off her when she was chewing them....
I just told him in no uncertain terms that if she ever bit him because he was annoying her, he would be the only one to blame. Fortunately he never felt the need to get "hands on" with Honey (he is one of these who believes you need to show the dog who is boss), possibly cos he knew I would kill him if he did... I'm hoping he's seeing that you don't need to get confrontational to get a dog to behave... we've had one argument over dog training methods when we were watching a tv programme where a little dog wouldn't let the male owner sit down on the the sofa, cos it would bite him.... and his immediate reaction was "well bite it back" ::) - fortunately the tv programme showed how a non-confrontational approach solved the problem almost immediately, so it rather took the wind out of his sales on that one!!! :005:
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You're not a failure - puppies are bloomin' hard work and it's very soul destroying at times. I have to agree with what's being said, he's your dog (I believe?) not your brothers and at the end of the day as much as you love your brother he's not doing the right thing by your pup (or you) and clearly isn't the right person to be spending too much time with him at the moment. Dave was a really hideous pup - like you've described Keli until he was about 9 months) and time out was the only thing that worked for us - he was about 11 months old before I could really relax a bit more with him around kids etc. We couldn't even say 'no' to Dave without him reacting really badly (he hates confrontation even today) and launching a proper aggressive attack, so he was quietly timed out behind a babygate in the kitchen and that was life for most of his first year... He's now lovely and really sweet - even with my 1 yr old, he'll be 3 in May and has been a lovely dog for nearly a year and a half now.
All I would add is get your head down, KNOW that he will grow into a lovely dog given the right handling and patience now, keep doing the right things and have a serious word with your brother. I have seen what heavy handed 'I'm in charge' handling has done to a feisty cocker pup and it's not nice - the cocker in question is a million miles from the breed standard of 'Merry' and isn't at all trustworthy around children (which is unfortunate as his owner had two kids when the dog was about 6yrs). I've known him from an adolescent, he's 11yrs now and whilst he doesn't have a 'bad' life, there was no need for handling him the way he was handled. I've looked after him a few times and he loves and really responds to gentle, positive handling but he's on the defensive all the time now which is how Dave can be if he's unsure or is confronted too much. I really think this dog could have been a very different dog had he been handled kindly :'( just as I really think Dave could have been a real problem if he'd been handled confrontationally to 'put him in his place' or 'punish him'. Show your pup consistent kindness from everyone and that's how he'll learn to behave, get heavy with him and that's what he'll offer back as he grows up...
Your brother needs to remember that Tali is a baby and learning from everyone and everything if he feels the need to defend himself he'll do that more and more - if he is rewarded for kind behaviour, he'll do that more and more. It takes a long time to sort a pup out but it's not that long in the grand scheme of their whole life :luv: :luv: :luv:
Take a breather, get out and get some fresh air then write a plan and ask you brother to stick to that when he visits ;) :-* :-* :-*
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Thank you all so much for being kind. Yes he is my pupst but my brother always takes over everything. He's older than me and lords it over me. To be honest he gets on my nerves. So much so I often ignore his phone calls for days on end. Sorry for ranting but I have come a long way with Tali since last week including a more accepting of crate pupst, I just want Tali to be happy and balanced.
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Hi Mel, I'm so sorry things are getting you down at the moment, you certainly don't need it especially with the other problems at the moment. Now this may sound very harsh, but I think you need to tell your brother to back off for a while, Tali is your pup, you lay down the rules, Tali is getting confused one minute being tormented and played with roughly, then when he reacts he's getting scolded by your brother, he's staying wound up after all the rough and tumble.
You know where I am if you want a chat, please remember most of this is normal puppy behaviour and it doesn't last that long (honestly), which is why we forget as our dogs get older.
You're doing an excellent job with him, don't let a few draw backs make you think any differently.
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I had the same problem with Brodie, certain people seemed to enjoy getting her riled up and then complained when she got really hyper ::) so you have my sympathies! With the biting, Brodie was a terror up until she was a year old, and even now still tries to mouth gently very occasionally when she gets over-excited. It seemed to go on and on and I was in tears several times, but she is now my dream dog and has the most amazing nature :luv:. Just keep at it, even though it seems never-ending, it will end as long as you are consistent :D.
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i have been lucky with my pups and play biting as been fairly low level, although Kelly had used to hang on to the kids clothes until she was about 6 months old :005: :luv:
As others have said, your biggest problem is your brother, Tali is just being a normal pup, but your brother is being a pain >:D. Families are really hard to deal with though and as he is your older brother i guess it will be difficult to change his behaviour. i know that Victoria Stilwell advises that you shouldnt play rough with a dog that bites, and encourages more "brain" intensive games with them (ie: find the treat) but i guess that would too boring for your brother.
the manic sessions do seems to be common in cockers though - Taz goes a bit manic after an intensive off lead session, its almost as if he doesnt know how to wind-down from them. So now i make sure, if he has been playing heavy with other dogs or had a hard agility session, i walk him for a while to warm him down - this seems to help. So perhaps a walk after you brother has gone would help.
Like others have said, it will only be a matter of time before your hard work pays off - unfortunately because of the negative impact your brother is having - it may take slightly longer. but you will have a fantasic dog in the long term. bring him up on your terms, not anyone elses - you are doing the right things.
Pity they dont make crates big enough for people - you could shove your brother in there!
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I wish he would just leave me alone. I'm so tired today that when extending Tali's insurance I didn't mention his infected eye he was treated for. Now that's messed up! I'll be accused of fraud now. Don't know what to do.
Me and Tali need a holiday :'(
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Be strong! Tell your brother to stop interfering or stay away (in the politest possible way). If he is any sort of brother to you, surely he can see how low you are at the moment. I don't know your circumstances but it sounds like you have a lot on your plate. I get really frustrated with my children - they are the reason we have Freddie but they obviously had a rose tinted view of what it would be like to have a puppy and the reality isn't what they were expecting. My youngest, especially, just won't listen when it comes to consistency and when Freddie does bite she runs off screeching which really helps (not!). She is 9. You need a friendly shoulder to cry on - I have a fantastic friend who always listens when I need a rant and helps me to see things rationally. That said, I have to confess that I do regret getting Freddie because, lovely as he is, stress levels in the house have hit the roof since he arrived. I know we will get through it but it's no fun at times with a puppy. ;)
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Awww Mel, sorry you're finding it tricky at the moment. :bigarmhug:
Not much to add to everyone else's excellent advice, but it does sound as if Tali is getting over-stimulated by your brother too late in the day. Ted is usually flaked out by about 8pm, and would be horrified if we tried to play with him in the evenings! :005: I really wouldn't be impressed if somebody wound him up into a frenzy and then complained if they got bitten. ::)
As for the insurance, I'd just call them back, explain you're exhausted and you forgot to tell them about the eye. I'm sure it will be fine - they're probably used to talking to tired puppy Mummies. :005:
Hang on in there, and don't be so hard on yourself, you're doing a great job.
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Pet Plan disaster averted. Thankfully.
Thank you all for your kind words. Yep brother has got to stop. I'm hoping he's eventually going to Cyprus soon to give everyone a break. Tali is a really lovely boy when he is calm and playing nicely. He sat with me on the bench in the grounds watching children playing yesterday and it was like watching a child in a sweet shop, he was so raring to get involved. He loves people and he has been sitting, giving paws and lying down since the first week home.
He's too precious to spoil. :luv: :luv:
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I can identify and agree with all this - that is, the stress and angst that is being suffered.
We have suffered with this as some of you know, since we got our pup in January. He is now nearly 5 months old and like others here, have tried our best with him, we really have. But he is unlike any dog we have ever raised.
A beautiful dog to look at; great to take out; learns things very quickly indeed, except not to bite us and not to constantly bark. The vets behaviour referral centre local to us has told us he has a 'problem' - don't we know it. Stress related anxiety issues.... possibly hereditary. Although his pedigree is perfect. No inbreeding.
He is completely manic in the evenings and now is starting to look like he is actually going for us, not just play biting.
We too, are at our wits end and very, very unhappy and disappointed. Thanks to those who have sent private messages to me following my earlier posts - we don't feel we can go on much longer... rehoming may be the only answer but to be honest, who would want a dog with these problems?
Even to have to think along those lines is distressing. We have had several other dogs between us, over the years.... no problem bringing them up and training them whatsoever. But this one... never seen a pup like him and it is ruining what we thought would be an enjoyable and exciting time.
I don't see the point of having a dog if you cannot enjoy its puppyhood; that is exactly the time when we should be able to enjoy him and form a bond with him. But we cannot get near him, especially in the evenings.
Moan over. Tomorrow is another day I suppose. But possibly another day closer to having him rehomed. If that is possible.
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I can identify and agree with all this - that is, the stress and angst that is being suffered.
We have suffered with this as some of you know, since we got our pup in January. He is now nearly 5 months old and like others here, have tried our best with him, we really have. But he is unlike any dog we have ever raised.
A beautiful dog to look at; great to take out; learns things very quickly indeed, except not to bite us and not to constantly bark. The vets behaviour referral centre local to us has told us he has a 'problem' - don't we know it. Stress related anxiety issues.... possibly hereditary. Although his pedigree is perfect. No inbreeding.
He is completely manic in the evenings and now is starting to look like he is actually going for us, not just play biting.
We too, are at our wits end and very, very unhappy and disappointed. Thanks to those who have sent private messages to me following my earlier posts - we don't feel we can go on much longer... rehoming may be the only answer but to be honest, who would want a dog with these problems?
Even to have to think along those lines is distressing. We have had several other dogs between us, over the years.... no problem bringing them up and training them whatsoever. But this one... never seen a pup like him and it is ruining what we thought would be an enjoyable and exciting time.
I don't see the point of having a dog if you cannot enjoy its puppyhood; that is exactly the time when we should be able to enjoy him and form a bond with him. But we cannot get near him, especially in the evenings.
Moan over. Tomorrow is another day I suppose. But possibly another day closer to having him rehomed. If that is possible.
I am really really sorry you are still having problems, but please whatever you do, do not give up on your boy, if you feel you can no longer cope then there are some brilliant rescues out there who will take him - reading between the lines it seems you are considering something far worse than that :'(. Apologies if I have read you wrong. I have seen dogs with far worse than his puppy behaviour being successfully rehomed :-\. Really hope you manage to sort things out, I have to say Brodie was also the same as him but grew out of it into a lovely dog - but it took months of consistent work.
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I am really really sorry you are still having problems, but please whatever you do, do not give up on your boy, if you feel you can no longer cope then there are some brilliant rescues out there who will take him - reading between the lines it seems you are considering something far worse than that :'(. Apologies if I have read you wrong. I have seen dogs with far worse than his puppy behaviour being successfully rehomed :-\. Really hope you manage to sort things out, I have to say Brodie was also the same as him but grew out of it into a lovely dog - but it took months of consistent work.
oh NO!!!! Please don't misunderstand me - we are not thinking of anything worse than rehoming... never in a million years. In fact we would only rehome to Cocker Rescue or someone we knew would give him a good home. Not just to anyone and certainly NOT any other 'solution'!
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I am really really sorry you are still having problems, but please whatever you do, do not give up on your boy, if you feel you can no longer cope then there are some brilliant rescues out there who will take him - reading between the lines it seems you are considering something far worse than that :'(. Apologies if I have read you wrong. I have seen dogs with far worse than his puppy behaviour being successfully rehomed :-\. Really hope you manage to sort things out, I have to say Brodie was also the same as him but grew out of it into a lovely dog - but it took months of consistent work.
oh NO!!!! Please don't misunderstand me - we are not thinking of anything worse than rehoming... never in a million years. In fact we would only rehome to Cocker Rescue or someone we knew would give him a good home. Not just to anyone and certainly NOT any other 'solution'!
Thank doG! You had me worried there ;). Really hope you manage to work things out - if not, people on here will be able to suggest good cocker rescues :D
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Hiya
I posted something on here the other day about daisy biting me all the time and it seems to be more me than my husband and ive tried everything too...... >:(
Ive found the last couple of days she has been much better and the only thing that works is to say NO BITE in a loud stern voice and walk out of the room.. only for a couple of secs and she follows me to the door and waits for me to come back in. if she goes for me again i repeat the process and stay out a little longer.. and so on and so on the other day i was out 10times haha but she gave up. My OH does this too and my mam etc so we all giving her the same messsage, BITING is not acceptable behaviour and all contact stops... last time i had a bite mark was Monday. She now seems to remember that im going to walk away if she bites and goes for her toys instead. She still does the occasional lunge and growl but i have found with daisy when she does this she is tired and its her way of fighting her sleep.. so i always put her in her crate and shes flat put within 5mins.
I hope this helps.. its hard work but im sure the pups will get better
Good luck
Hayey,Garry and Daisy :blink:
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haygar - glad to hear things are improving! :D
blueroanlover - really sorry to hear things are still so stressful... I do hope that you can get through this stage of your pup's life... From what you are saying, could it be as simple as him being over-tired, as it's the evenings that are the worst? Could you crate him, in the same room as you, just to try and get him to relax a little?
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HI Karma
No I don't think he is over tired... and we cannot crate him in the living room, it is not big enough, we are only in a small bungalow.
For instance, it takes 10-15 mins to get his lead on him during the day because he is biting that much - manic biting. Iknow he is excited at the prospect of going out, but any excuse to bite and he will do... and it is getting worse not better.
Thanks for your sympathy though, it's appreciated. :blink:
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HI Karma
No I don't think he is over tired... and we cannot crate him in the living room, it is not big enough, we are only in a small bungalow.
For instance, it takes 10-15 mins to get his lead on him during the day because he is biting that much - manic biting. Iknow he is excited at the prospect of going out, but any excuse to bite and he will do... and it is getting worse not better.
Thanks for your sympathy though, it's appreciated. :blink:
I had a nippy pup when he got excited about going out , i used to get his lead out and over my shoulders and completely ignore him for a minuite or two while i got myself sorted , then id get a treat ask him to sit , hold his collar give him his treat and clip his lead on :D Now he still gets excited and jumps all over when he sees his lead out but i can get him to sit while he has his lead put on.
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It's upsetting to hear of others with this lunging trait. Tali was in a darkened crate for a few hours today whilst I was out. I went to Ikea which is never the shortest trip. He has been less bitey this evening and not quite so hyper. I bought him a couple of the Ikea toy rabbits and he went ballistic for a bit over them. He's just such a loving lille man when he's not in crocodile mode.
It is a bit depressing when you find you are not really winning especially when you have trained pupst's before and done quite a reasonable job. He's fast asleep now which is good and at a more sensible time. Brother's 6 phone calls didn't get answered today as I was out.
I now have the dulcit tones of Gothy the hamster trying to escape!
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I can understand that reading all the bitey puppy tale
can make you depressed, but try to look at the bigger picture.
I don't think any of us with adult dogs have a problem with out-of-control biting any more.
It really IS possible to train them. I guess it must just take longer with cockers. I wonder if their bad character traits are just part and parcel of what makes them such wonderful dogs on the whole? (if you see what I mean!).
In all my years on COL Ican recall only a handful of pups being re-homed because of these tendancies.
In fact I think there have been more adoptions of such dogs who have then gone on to be delightful pets.
And I don't believe for one second that those owners are any better than you who are having problems just now. Stick in there, heed all the advice and be consistent. You WILL get there, I am sure.