CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: heelers n cockers on April 22, 2010, 05:28:35 AM
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OK so i do know a few folk on here have show type cockers and they do gundog training, but i was talking to a chap who has pure working strain spaniels, i mentioned that i was after a gundog trainer, just to help with basic gundog training, and when he found out it was for Show dogs he was almost disrespectful! >:( saying 'oh the dog's too old, it's show bred, it wont learn, you wont get any where with it, you'll be just be wasting your money' etc. etc. he couldn't quite get his head round the idea that show dogs might be trainable AAARRGGGHH! :doh:
So my question is are showdogs/showbred dogs that bad to train? :huh: and where the heck can i find a good gundog trainer in Hudds/Otley area? (based in Hudds, W/ends in Otley) :dunno: surely there are some out there that wont scoff when i say basic gundog training for a showdog! :huh:
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Ignore him. Gun dog training (like most forms of training) can be done by absolutely an dog and the fact that yours is a show strain wont make an difference. You may find your dog cant carry as larger items as a working cocker (assuming its not as big) cockers are traditionally used for flushing which is why they they are smaller than the retevial dogs. And he may not have as much of a natural ability but then one of mine has absolutely no natural ability and hes full worker but id have though the fact its a type of cocker will give you a head start on the none gun dog breeds.
Ive seen tiny terriers taking part and doing very well.
However i dont know where you stand in terms of trials and competitions. I dont see why you wouldnt be able to take part if hes up to standard
Unfortuntely my experience with traditional gun dog training is that its a very cliquely, traditionally under taken by men (although this is changing), and generally uses some very old fashion training techniques. I gave up in the end and teach it privately or with someone i know how trains her own dogs by methods i agree with but isnt a proffesional trainer.
If you do find classes, go see it first and make sure you agree with their training techniques before signing up.
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I kow an excellent trainer that will take on show cockers (one she has helped train has passed its gundog club grade 2 test with almost full marks and didn't disgrace itself when we took her on a simulated beat). She is based at North Allerton which isn't that far from you vai the M1A1 link.
pm me for details. It is where i take my working cocker and my spanish.
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I took Taz (show) to gundog training and personally i had a bad experience. the trainer was VERY hard/rough on the dogs, and had more than one of us in tears. He made me feel completely incompetant at training Taz, but then following a 1-2-1 session we had with him to try and get us through the exam, said Taz was the most stubborn dog he had ever come across (two hours trying to get him to recall - without success!). I swear if Taz had fingers he would have given him the V sign :005:
As Sarah 1985 suggested, if you find a trainer go to a class before you part with any money to see if you like the way the trainer handles the dogs, training methods, etc. It cost me over £250 trying to get through grade 1 with the guy i went to and still failed to meet the desired criteria.
I have a working lab pup now and i would have liked to take her to classes, but he has completely put me off.
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If you want to give it a go then don't let anyone try to put you off until you've tried it. Ring around local trainers, ask them some questions to get a feel for what they are like and what methods they use etc. Phone the gundog club, they can put you in touch with suitable trainers locally also. I took Darcy (3/4 show) gundog training and my trainer (ex >:D) scoffed at her. He threw a dummy into some really heavy and deep covered snowy ground and said to our group 'oh she won't find that', I think she thought V to you mate and found it straight away. The big difference between show and worker can be the drive and the desire to hunt thats bred into the worker. Darcy failed her grade one on her retrieving, as she wouldn't bring the dummy back, but I have since found a 'cocker' trainer who isn't bothered that she's show and she will get there eventually ph34r.
If your really lucky you'll find a good trainer straight away that meets your needs, if not (and you don't mind searching) keep at it until you do ;)
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Si takes Harvey to gundog training - he will never be a field trialist and he will never have the stamina for a full days beating however, gundog training gives him a different type of challenge and has greatly improved his obedience such as sitting to whistle at distance, good stays etc. Si has also started to train in the rabbit pen to steady Harvey around other animals etc, again something that will help in day to day life.
There are a lot of good trainers out there, stick to your training principles and keep searching... good luck
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Sorry if came over that i was trying to put you off - that certainly wasnt my intention.
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Si takes Harvey to gundog training - he will never be a field trialist and he will never have the stamina for a full days beating however, gundog training gives him a different type of challenge and has greatly improved his obedience such as sitting to whistle at distance, good stays etc. Si has also started to train in the rabbit pen to steady Harvey around other animals etc, again something that will help in day to day life.
There are a lot of good trainers out there, stick to your training principles and keep searching... good luck
Just to give you a rough idea of what I've been doing with Harvey, here are a couple of vids I've taken of him doing his stuff.
www.youtube.com/user/Si19871
The first one is of us doing a few retrieves...Memory retrieves, basic marked retrieves and a marked retrieve with hand directions. The second one is of a memory retrieve where Harvey (eventually) runs back about 300m, collects the dummy and then returns, and the third vid is of him retrieving a dummy from some fairly heavy cover.
As Mandy has said, he's not got the stamina to work a full day, and I’m using him to help train me for such a time that we get a working dog. Don't let anyone put you off...Show dogs can work and it’s a very enjoyable pastime!
Si.
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What a rubbish trainer you met OP >:D Henry is doing really well with his training, and my trainer certainly doesn't think he can't do it - she thinks he could even do a days work and that's our goal :shades:
Stupid man, that's really made me mad >:D >:D
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I don't know any in your area but what I found was the show dogs do have the basic instinct but it is much keener in the working dogs so they seemed to pick things up quicker because it was more like second nature to them. I can't see why without a bit more perseverance that a show dog could not pick things up too. I have noticed with mine that I have a mixture and the ones that were more attentive to me picked it up quicker, but to me the basic gundog principles can be picked up by any dog.
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I think the answer to your question is fairly simple; you can train most dogs to do most tricks if you try for long enough and of course if you and the trainer have the desire to see it through. Gundog training starts at birth and takes years to complete, I don’t actually think any dog is 100% there until its 5 years old (that will cause some comments)
Most professional gundog trainers will be into running dogs in field trials or training to work with the gun, they will have fairly set procedures and will expect working stock puppies which depending on breeding have a good desire to hunt and retrieve. Their job is easier that way. My gold dog has so much working instinct its almost easy, she may even show me how to shoot soon.
A spaniel is a dog that was bread to do the whole shooting job so will keenly retrieve hunt and Flush, although people think that workers are bigger this is not always the case, I have seen the smallest cocker bitch carrying the largest Cock bird with no problem, not quite sure how she could see where she was going though.
My own cockers will retrieve or hunt, they will stand peg all day, go for a days beating or have a walk up day through some of the worst cover in the world, they go anywhere. I have even shot geese with my cockers.
If you really want to go shooting with the dog get some one to one training, it’s the only efficient way to get the best out of the dog, start with an assessment with a good trainer who will be able to tell you what kind of chances you have, if you are just looking to pass certificates have a look for a good training book or video, Simon Tyers sells a very good Video.
One last comment, in reply to the sexist comment against men the mix of males to females working dogs in shoots and competition where I go is about 60/40, if I think of just cockers there are probably more ladies out there entering competitions or working on shoots.
Us shooting lot are nothing to be scared of, most of us will try to help anyone.
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One last point on gundog training with cockers, most of them need quite gentle handling the nasty bully approach often does not work so keep away from the traditional type of trainers.
Punishment does need to fit the crime and the do always try it on and every dog is different, persistence often wins the day.
My dogs
Blue if he is naughty a word and a nasty look often sorts him out, a strong word will have him cuddling my leg or peeing himself, he does occasionally get an ear tug when he directly defies me (looking at me whilst doing something I am telling him not to)
Ruby Hard as they come, stubborn, pushes her luck at every given chance, can be very very naughty. Words don’t often interrupt her little world of fun and disobedience so stronger methods are used, gentle flick to back of head is the reminder that if she doesn’t behave an ear tug may soon follow.
To some of you this may sound cruel but do let me assure you that this type of treatment is used with caution and infrequently.
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You're right in part - although I don't see the physical punishment of ear pulling as just cruel - I find it completely needless and cruel. The forum as a whole as I've said on another thread does not promote aversive methods
the fact that your dog 'pees' itself speaks volumes :-\
If you'd like to refer to the below sticky this explains our training beliefs and what we feel is appropriate
http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=34180.0 (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=34180.0)
As for a training a gundog - I've trained mine perfectly well without ear pulling or scruffing or any other type of popular gundog training punishment and we have a very good working relationship. It can be done.
Any further posts promoting these type of methods will be removed.
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My trainer uses clicker training - she owns and works both spaniels and HPR types so knows what she is about. It can be done.
I have never found anything further than a stern tone of voice necessary for my dog (and he has never reacted fearfully to this - just oops, she must mean it, okaaaay, concentrating again) - it is my personal view that if you get to the point of needing this kind of thing, you have already failed as a trainer on that day and need to take a step back and start again. But then many of my attitudes come from working with horses, where avoiding getting into straight up battles of will wherever possible is the whole point. Let's face it, when the animal weighs half a ton, you are going to lose so you learn to box clever PDQ! :shades:
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Absolutely agree....
We had one gundog lesson, which we enjoyed... the trainer uses nothing above a stern voice to correct his dogs, and he runs a well respected training school and shooting club, and takes in dogs for residential training...
He was so impressed with how tuned in to positive training Honey was that he even commented she didn't even need a stern voice... she knows that my ignoring her means she is in the wrong... :D
He's even clicker trained the pig they have at the site!!! :005:
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Hi there, my friend has just had this with her black and white Amercian cocker boy, Krissy. They were going to show him but he had what seemed to be a full blown case of canine ADHD! The last problem they had was when he slipped his show lead at Bakewell show last year, ran across two rings and came back covered in mud! Anyway, Karen has experience of training dogs to the gun and suggested that maybe little Krissy was bored of the show ring and that her other half should try to work him. Neil took him to three classes and then tried his hand at being a helper at one of the shoots. Well, the "real" gundog folk with flatcoats,etc and all of the bigger breeds fell about laughing when Neil turned up at the shoot with gorgeous little black and white Khrissy, the "Yank". However, he out ran all of their dogs and won an award for being the best dog at the end of the day. They had to eat their words!!! I've seen Krissy today and he is a totally different dog than he was prior to training, he was fetching and carrying for his mum and dad and aunty Jen was even getting lots of hugs and kisses from him! So much for canine ADHD!!! xx
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Si takes Harvey to gundog training - he will never be a field trialist and he will never have the stamina for a full days beating however, gundog training gives him a different type of challenge and has greatly improved his obedience such as sitting to whistle at distance, good stays etc. Si has also started to train in the rabbit pen to steady Harvey around other animals etc, again something that will help in day to day life.
There are a lot of good trainers out there, stick to your training principles and keep searching... good luck
Just to give you a rough idea of what I've been doing with Harvey, here are a couple of vids I've taken of him doing his stuff.
www.youtube.com/user/Si19871
The first one is of us doing a few retrieves...Memory retrieves, basic marked retrieves and a marked retrieve with hand directions. The second one is of a memory retrieve where Harvey (eventually) runs back about 300m, collects the dummy and then returns, and the third vid is of him retrieving a dummy from some fairly heavy cover.
As Mandy has said, he's not got the stamina to work a full day, and I’m using him to help train me for such a time that we get a working dog. Don't let anyone put you off...Show dogs can work and it’s a very enjoyable pastime!
Si.
i loved those! Harvey's a clever boy! that's the sort of thing i would love Freddy to do! his breeder bred Flatcoats for show and trained them in fieldwork, and she trained Freddy's mum to field standards and apparently she was a better retriever than her Flatties! :005: not only that i think it would be beneficial in the long term, if only to keep his brain occupied and for general behaviour. Also if my puppy plans go accordingly (fingers crossed) i will have a show strain puppy to train too! :dance04:
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Oh and thanks everyone for the positive comments :cool4: you've made me all the more determined to train Freddy (and maybe Patrick-if he stops being such a giddy kipper! :005:) to do some sort of gundog training.
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Si takes Harvey to gundog training - he will never be a field trialist and he will never have the stamina for a full days beating however, gundog training gives him a different type of challenge and has greatly improved his obedience such as sitting to whistle at distance, good stays etc. Si has also started to train in the rabbit pen to steady Harvey around other animals etc, again something that will help in day to day life.
There are a lot of good trainers out there, stick to your training principles and keep searching... good luck
Just to give you a rough idea of what I've been doing with Harvey, here are a couple of vids I've taken of him doing his stuff.
www.youtube.com/user/Si19871
The first one is of us doing a few retrieves...Memory retrieves, basic marked retrieves and a marked retrieve with hand directions. The second one is of a memory retrieve where Harvey (eventually) runs back about 300m, collects the dummy and then returns, and the third vid is of him retrieving a dummy from some fairly heavy cover.
As Mandy has said, he's not got the stamina to work a full day, and I’m using him to help train me for such a time that we get a working dog. Don't let anyone put you off...Show dogs can work and it’s a very enjoyable pastime!
Si.
I loved Harvey before but luff him even more now, bless him!!! Really nice vids to see those Simon, thank you!