CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Becky and Wilson on June 06, 2010, 08:35:29 PM
-
Hello everyone,
As some of you might know I'm in search of a black and tan or choc and tan pup! Well, I rang a lady today and all sounded very good, health tests done etc and used a very well known breeder for the stud dog.
However, she said she hadn't managed to get the pups registered yet because she was trying to apply for KC accredited breeder scheme but because the sire hadn't had one relevant test they were not willing to grant her accredited breeder status, thus holding up the registering of the pups.
She was only an hours drive away so I went to see the pups, there were 2 black and tan boys and they are now 9 weeks old. I don't know yet if I can have the time off work without talking to work tomorrow about it so knew I'd not be in a position to take a pup home anyway!
So now I've decided I like one of the pups, checked him over, lovely markings, nice and chunky, cuddly when picked up but playful with his brothers and sister.
IF my work allows me the time off from next week.....do you think I should have the pup if he's not KC registered yet or perhaps should I only offer a reduced price for him until the papers come through?! She said she's selling them for 600, do you think I should offer 300 and then the rest if/when the papers come through? I don't want to show or breed from him I only want to do agility in future so doesn't HAVE to be KC registered although I'd prefer him to be!
What do you think?
Becky
-
I'm not sure I understand why she can't register the puppies yet and has to wait to be an accredited breeder? Puppies are register all the time without being in the scheme aren't they and these are 9 weeks old already? Did you see the paperwork regarding the health test...
Whilst being registered might not be important, I would like to think that a breeder was being honest about the situation. If she is, then the decision is yours as is whether you're prepared to offer the price for the puppies. :-\
Don't jump just because you're let down by the other breeder.
-
Yes, I was going to say the most important thing was to inspect the health tests documentation and look at the dam's KC papers. Although I too would prefer a pup that is KC registered, but this way at least you know that the pup is from healthy stock! :shades:
-
I also am a bit confused as to why they are not registered. If she has all the health checks then what is the important test the sire does not have thats what i would be asking, ?
Did you see the certificates Becky?
KC registration is not that important compared to health etc but when she is asking for £600 it is!!!
Just dont want you to have any more heartache xx
-
doesn't sound like a particularly good breeder tbh :-\
-
Becky, this doesn't sound right. I too really don't understand why the puppies aren't already KC registered. :huh: If the breeder is applying for the KC ABS, this is a seperate issue. :huh:
Did you see any health test documentation for the sire & dam?
Which is the health test on the sire that wasn't carried out?
Were you happy with the mum & puppies environment?
It is slightly unusual for a breeder to still have 2 puppies for sale at 9 weeks of age, unless they are planning to see how they develop for showing.
I am sorry & understand you are very keen to get a puppy but it does sound a bit dodgy. :huh:
-
I'm not sure I understand why she can't register the puppies yet and has to wait to be an accredited breeder? Puppies are register all the time without being in the scheme aren't they and these are 9 weeks old already? Did you see the paperwork regarding the health test...
Whilst being registered might not be important, I would like to think that a breeder was being honest about the situation. If she is, then the decision is yours as is whether you're prepared to offer the price for the puppies. :-\
Don't jump just because you're let down by the other breeder.
Was going to say the same thing, at least if the pup is KC Registered, you know the mother is the right age for breeding and has not had too many litters. It just seems all a bit strange to me :dunno:
-
Perhaps you should tell her your concerns, one of my boys didn't have papers for a while but got them and knew I was going to get them eventually.
Alternatively perhaps you could dpeek to the stud dog owner. I know having them unbooked at 9 weeks is usual but not unheard of even with good breeders at the mo.
-
Hmmm, I was worried you might all say things like this! I guess I was going in with my heart too much and not my head!
I did see the Dams KC certificate and saw her 5 Gen pedigree as well as the sires, but to be honest, they didn't mean a lot to me! There were a good few names I recognised on the pedigree's but I didn't see any health certificates!
Mum looked in good shape but she was docked, when I asked her age she said 2 or 3.....I didn't think until after but Paisley is 2.5 and she has a full tail, I'm sure they stopped docking in April 2007 as this is when I was first looking for a cocker. So she must be over 3 if she is docked, so to say 2 or 3 is a little odd! I know exactly how old mine are and can remember their birth dates off the top of my head!
I did think surely the pups could be KC registered without her being in the accredited breeder scheme, but I don't know a lot about that side of things so thought maybe the pups would have something on their documents to say from a ABS breeder?!
As for the place, seemed fine, pups kept in an outdoor kennel with a run and were allowed free roam of the backyard area. There was a wooden palet that the pups were climbing through and chewing which I thought was a little unsafe. Actually, the more I think about it the more I think perhaps this is not the right pup for me.
She didn't just have these 2 boys left she had all but 1 of the litter left and the one she'd sold was to a friend, who popped around while I was there (her handyman she said).
Maybe I'll make my excuses that my work won't allow me the time off in the near future and not have the pup. He was gorgeous but not right if everything else is not right.
I'm so glad I have you lot! You keep my head screwed on! :-*
-
I would tread carefully with this one as well. I do know that my Ruby Doo's paperwork was held up for a short while (she was the only pup from my Jem's "litter") but that was because I am an accredited breeder and I had had Jem's eyes tested quite recent for their records and the KC hadn't received the paperwork from the vet. I'm just wondering if she means that type of thing, if dad has only had one of the compulsary tests done recently and it's still pending with the KC. However, in the meantime the breeder should be able to supply new owners with copies of all health tests done for sire and dam of the litter and also copies of mum and dad's KC paperwork to prove that they are KC registered. I would ask the lady for those copies of all of the health tests ( do check that the details are for the sire and dam of the pups as they do use KC names and not "pet" names on the paperwork so it can be a bit confusing for new owners). I don't think that your "reduced price" offer would be ideal in this situation either. Hope this helps a bit, best wishes :D
-
Oh Becky sorry :'(
I'm speechless that the breeder doesn't even know the age of her dog. :o :o
I'm sure the right puppy will come along soon. :luv:
-
I've just emailed the sires breeder to see what she thinks and to check if the sire really is the sire! I checked the sires website and all the details this lady showed me I could see on the sires website so basically anyone could have printed that off and claimed it to be the sire!
Hopefully I'll get a responce back!
-
Hope you don't mind me asking Becky but where did you find out about these pups?
It just seems odd to me that this breeder has three puppies left at 9 weeks of a desirable colour. You know yourself from experience that the rarer colours are usually spoken for before this age.
Everyone on this forum wants you to get your little boy and are offering their best advice
Best wishes for whatever you decide.
BTW on your email to the sire owner did you mention in the subject box what the message was about? It is just that some breeders ignore emails if subject details aren't filled in. (risk of spam etc)
-
Hope you don't mind me asking Becky but where did you find out about these pups?
It just seems odd to me that this breeder has three puppies left at 9 weeks of a desirable colour. You know yourself from experience that the rarer colours are usually spoken for before this age.
Everyone on this forum wants you to get your little boy and are offering their best advice
Best wishes for whatever you decide.
BTW on your email to the sire owner did you mention in the subject box what the message was about? It is just that some breeders ignore emails if subject details aren't filled in. (risk of spam etc)
Yes in the subject I wrote "Question about stud dog ****** "
So hopefully they'll read it!
And ph34r ph34r ph34r ph34r everyone get ready to shoot me down now ph34r ph34r ph34r I found this pup on e***z! ph34r
I'm going to walk away from it! There's too many things that aren't right, I know there is a better breeder and a better pup out there! I'm in contact with a couple of others, I just need to be patient and wait, I have been so patient so far and being let down by someone has made me go into a frenzy of "need a pup NOW".
I will take a deep breath, sit back, and wait for the right pup to come along!
-
good luck with your search sweetie :-* the right dog will come along soon
-
I will take a deep breath, sit back, and wait for the right pup to come along!
:bigarmhug: the right decision IMO Becky ;)
-
I'm sorry Becky, I nearly didn't post as I felt like I was raining on your excitement BUT it sounds like in your heart you feel there was something not right about this breeder. Maybe it is all genuine :-\ (and I do know of good breeders who still have pups at 12 weeks plus - just not the colour you want). Your pup is out there and I'm sure someone will come up trumps for you :-*
:bigarmhug:
-
On the docking issue, yes you're right if it wasn't April 07 it was very close to it - Dave (undocked) was born at the end of May 07 and I remember that by then the docking law was just in force. It could be legal if she's 3.5 say and the rest could stack up but it all does seem a bit woolly and not very well organised :-\
I think you're making the right decision walking away, I only feel comfortable with breeders who are very clear and upfront about tests and registration and make a point of showing me the paperwork if that makes sense!
Keeping everything crossed for you that the right pup appears soon :-* :-* :-*
-
the only thing that bothers me is what will happen to these pups if people are only looking for KC registered pups :huh: only playing devils advocate as often you find non KC pups just as healthy as KC pups.....that said I would be very wary if a breeder was unsure of the age of her dog..I know mine off by heart
-
I would also agree that not all non-KC registered pups are unhealthy. Niki, my first cocker, was given to me and had no papers. He was a fit and very healthy dog. However, not knowing the age of your dog is highly suspect. The cynical side of me says this person could be selling pups from a dam she doesn't own. That's a point put the dams name into google and you may well, with some digging, find out the owners name and see if it's the same person. Do KC hold these records which the public can access?
-
You can check health tests against a dogs name but doesn't show owner. The cynic in me says you could give the pedigree name of any dog in the country and unless you happened to know the breeder or that dog, how would you know it is that dog. A black bitch looks pretty much like another as an example :-\
Check health tests here http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/health/search/Default.aspx
-
Becky, no advise, just wanted to say hope the right pupster comes along for you soon. Getting let down by someone can heighten so many emotions and trying to rectify the situation as quick as poss is perfectly natural, but think you've made the right decision about this little fella. I'm a huge believer in everything happens for a reason and you will find the right one :luv:
Lisa x
-
Really sorry to hear about this disappointment but if all sounds a bit vague - I really hope you find the pup of your dreams soon.
I can't imagine anyone not knowing the age of their dog. I wonder if it's even her dog, or just one from a puppy farmer/ BYB that has been shipped to a domestic setting to for the sale of the pups :-\
-
the only thing that bothers me is what will happen to these pups if people are only looking for KC registered pups :huh: only playing devils advocate as often you find non KC pups just as healthy as KC pups.....that said I would be very wary if a breeder was unsure of the age of her dog..I know mine off by heart
Most non registered litters come from parents which have not been health tested so not sure about the claim that non registered pups are often as healthy as registered pups. KC registration is of course not a guarantee of a healthy puppy but it should be the starting point for every responsible breeder. From a buyer's point of view, a registered puppy means you have some idea of parentage (non-registered pups could come from anywhere) and you also have public access to the health status of the parents of a KC reg litter (by using the online database) and can start your research by checking this. Unfortunately it's not uncommon for breeders to claim their dogs are health tested when they are not - we even had a COL member (now ex-member) who did this until she was found out so claims of health testing should always be checked out & not just taken at face value.
As for what happens to non registered pups, well if no-one bought pups from breeders who don't breed responsibly, they would soon stop breeding - it's the fact that people are happy to buy from puppy farms, commercial breeders, BYBs etc that means these kind of breeders sadly continue to thrive.
-
On the docking issue, yes you're right if it wasn't April 07 it was very close to it - Dave (undocked) was born at the end of May 07 and I remember that by then the docking law was just in force. It could be legal if she's 3.5 say and the rest could stack up but it all does seem a bit woolly and not very well organised :-\
I think you're making the right decision walking away, I only feel comfortable with breeders who are very clear and upfront about tests and registration and make a point of showing me the paperwork if that makes sense!
Keeping everything crossed for you that the right pup appears soon :-* :-* :-*
Just thought I'd add about docking that they still can - so even a pup born this year could have a docked tail.
As long as the breeder fills in the correct paper work/forms for it, can proove they'll be a working dog (as in there is no point trying to dock a show cocker when you can get working cockers for the job) instead of pets, and its done before the puppy is 5 days old, a vet will dock the tails!
-
On the docking issue, yes you're right if it wasn't April 07 it was very close to it - Dave (undocked) was born at the end of May 07 and I remember that by then the docking law was just in force. It could be legal if she's 3.5 say and the rest could stack up but it all does seem a bit woolly and not very well organised :-\
I think you're making the right decision walking away, I only feel comfortable with breeders who are very clear and upfront about tests and registration and make a point of showing me the paperwork if that makes sense!
Keeping everything crossed for you that the right pup appears soon :-* :-* :-*
Just thought I'd add about docking that they still can - so even a pup born this year could have a docked tail.
As long as the breeder fills in the correct paper work/forms for it, can proove they'll be a working dog (as in there is no point trying to dock a show cocker when you can get working cockers for the job) instead of pets, and its done before the puppy is 5 days old, a vet will dock the tails!
The OP is looking for a Show Cocker puppy so that's why they raised the docking issue as the show cocker dam is docked ;)
-
My black/tan bitch was one of the last ones to be legally docked before the ban came into force(show cocker,not worker)being docked on the 27th march 07(ban came in 28th march)i did find that when showing her i had to be so precise when the judge asked her age,you tend to forget that '2 years' should be '2 years and 3 months' for instance,the 2 year bit making her illegally docked,the 3 months added on making her 'legal'i learnt the hard way as she lost the 1st place at an open show because i,d missed a few months off,the judge saw me afterwards and said she couldnt place her as the age i said made her illegal!!!! Having 8 cockers,i do sometimes get mixed up and get the ages wrong,also.
When i bought her,i waited quite a while for her breeder to register her as she coldnt decide on a name for her,i said that was ok as long as she was registered by 6 months so i could show her.I also have her pups now(2) which are 8 weeks,i havent registered them yet as i cant decide on their show names,neither have i advertised them yet as i want to make sure i keep the best one for showing.
I am not an accredited breeder,but ALL my dogs have been/will be health tested. What i,m trying to say is,delve deeper into this breeder before you decide,does she show or just breed for a hobby?Do you know any other breeders that no of her?that can verify what she says.
-
My black/tan bitch was one of the last ones to be legally docked before the ban came into force(show cocker,not worker)being docked on the 27th march 07(ban came in 28th march)i did find that when showing her i had to be so precise when the judge asked her age,you tend to forget that '2 years' should be '2 years and 3 months' for instance,the 2 year bit making her illegally docked,the 3 months added on making her 'legal'i learnt the hard way as she lost the 1st place at an open show because i,d missed a few months off,the judge saw me afterwards and said she couldnt place her as the age i said made her illegal!!!! Having 8 cockers,i do sometimes get mixed up and get the ages wrong,also.
When i bought her,i waited quite a while for her breeder to register her as she coldnt decide on a name for her,i said that was ok as long as she was registered by 6 months so i could show her.I also have her pups now(2) which are 8 weeks,i havent registered them yet as i cant decide on their show names,neither have i advertised them yet as i want to make sure i keep the best one for showing.
I am not an accredited breeder,but ALL my dogs have been/will be health tested. What i,m trying to say is,delve deeper into this breeder before you decide,does she show or just breed for a hobby?Do you know any other breeders that no of her?that can verify what she says.
No she wasn't a show breeder, the mum was clipped and she never mentioned ever showing her just that the sires line had lots of champs in it. I would understand her reasons for not registering a couple of the pups if it was because of keeping them herself and like you struggling to think of her name. But the reason she gave about not being an accredited breeder yet I now know are rubbish and the pups could have been registered anyway!